CAP support to AF Reserve

[RiverAux]

Most of the previous discussions on CAPTalk regarding CAP members providing some sort of augmentation support to the Air Force have focused primarily on active duty and to a much lesser extent, the Air National Guard.  Since we haven't heard much about the test augmentation program (VSAF) that took place a few years ago the concept may be dead.

However, this story about cutbacks in the Air Force Reserve made me think about this again: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/11/air-force-reserve-efficiency-changes_111811/

What surprised me is that the Reserve only accounts for 4% of the AF budget. 

Why might CAP fit in better with providing support to the Reserves?  Well, given that already low funding rate and anticipated cutbacks, they may be looking for some assistance.  Weekend drills mean that they're going to need the most help when CAP members have the most free time.  A similar situation exists with the Air National Guard, but with the Reserves we avoid all that tricky state vs federal control issue entirely. 

The biggest problem is the availability of CAP members near where the few Reserve units actually are.  However, I'm convinced that if an augmentation program was started that it would eventually result in people joining CAP just top participate in it and that we could eventually even have entire CAP squadrons dedicated to that mission. 

Of course, the other issue is exactly what the CAP members would do.  That would have to be something that would have to be worked out at each unit and would require some trial and error to figure out.  One item from the story above is that they're cutting out the civilian PT testers -- I don't see why CAP couldn't do that.  Granted, thats just one job, but its a start. 

Seeing as how there are SDF units dedicated to provide augmentation support to several Air National Guard units around the country I see no reason why CAP members (who are basically the same sort of people who join SDFs) couldn't do the same. 

[Eclipse]

Of course, the other issue is exactly what the CAP members would do.

I don't think that's the "other" issue, that's the main issue.

Most VSAF duty that was made public had us doing administrative work or other non-CAP-type duties, some in places where the USAF couldn't, or wouldn't fill a paid billet, and then as "thanks" for the free help, VSAF people didn't even get the respect of wearing their proper uniform or being addressed properly - they might as well be college interns.

I understand the "1-team" spirit, and I've always been excited to help local bases and other military anywhere their needs cross our core missions, assuming the requests don't come with too many caveats or asterisks, but routine augmentation is not one of our mandates, and it would appear that neither organization is prepared to handle it properly.

[coudano]

there would need to be a mission or "need" that couldn't be filled by the reserve or guard personnel on hand,
and quite frankly, right now,
that is not the situation.  and I dont think it will be anytime soon (even WITH budget cuts)

[RiverAux]

I understand the "1-team" spirit, and I've always been excited to help local bases and other military anywhere their needs cross our core missions

Providing non-combat support to the Air Force IS one of our core missions.  Unlike cadet programs it is specifically mentioned in the law authorizing CAP and is so important that it was mentioned separately from the disaster relief/emergency services and aerospace education missions in which we have traditionally provided AF support. 

and it would appear that neither organization is prepared to handle it properly.

This is most certainly true.  We don't have a good administrative structure to handle this, either on the CAP or AF side of the house (it would almost take an act of Congress to have a CAP member turn on the coffee maker at an AFB if you followed the applicable AF regulation on such CAP support). 

However, this does not have to be a terribly complicated procedure either as demonstrated by the CG and CG Aux -- basically nothing more complicated than the Auxie making his interest known to the CG person in charge of the unit and if they need the help, the Auxie can start.  No big deal.  Personally, that may actually be a little too loose a system for my tastes, but shows what can work. 

I assume this is one of the issues that was worked on as part of the VSAF experiment but since no report on that was produced or if it was, it hasn't become public, so we don't know what solutions may have been considered.

there would need to be a mission or "need" that couldn't be filled by the reserve or guard personnel on hand,
and quite frankly, right now,
that is not the situation.  and I dont think it will be anytime soon (even WITH budget cuts)

I feel comfortable in saying that there probably aren't many AFR unit commanders that couldn't use at least a few general purpose folks around to take care of some stuff that would free up personnel to focus on the really important work. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Of course, the other issue is exactly what the CAP members would do.

I don't think that's the "other" issue, that's the main issue.

Most VSAF duty that was made public had us doing administrative work or other non-CAP-type duties, some in places where the USAF couldn't, or wouldn't fill a paid billet, and then as "thanks" for the free help, VSAF people didn't even get the respect of wearing their proper uniform or being addressed properly - they might as well be college interns.

I understand the "1-team" spirit, and I've always been excited to help local bases and other military anywhere their needs cross our core missions, assuming the requests don't come with too many caveats or asterisks, but routine augmentation is not one of our mandates, and it would appear that neither organization is prepared to handle it properly.

Eclipse -- I had to laugh about some of your comments.   You exhibit some of the "typical" mindset of some members of CAP in their view as alleged "officers".    Perhaps all of us need to reread and get a complete understanding of AFI 10-2701, http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf, especially paragraph 1-3 Status Of Personnel: 
   1.3.  Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,  reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

Since the USAF prescribes our uniform wear, it is well within their rights to prescribe the "specialized" uniform that will be worn in the VSAF program or when providing any other support to them.

Air Force Reserve & Air National Guard bases, generally have Air Reserve/Air Guard Technicians, on duty during the week (as well as weekends) that wear the appropriate AF uniform but are actually civilian unionized employees NOT subject to UCMJ.  There's also some support functions on (reserve) bases that may have been contracted out (e.g.motor pool, facilities/grounds maintenance, weather services, base ops, etc).     There may be restrictions on the use of unpaid volunteer personnel in the labor contract.  As far as a civilian contractors goes, likely this would need additional legal review/approval before unpaid volunteer assistance could be utilized.

I volunteer in CAP to do "Missions for America" IF the USAF wanted me to wear a pink bunny rabbit outfit  :angel: while supporting them I personally wouldn't have any issue, since I'm not caught up in the "wanna bee" factor that exists in CAP and to a certain extent has hurt the organization overall    Perhaps the overall organizational "mind set" also impacted the potential effectiveness of this program      

Additionally, I would agree the sustainability of daily support would be questionable.   At our squadron, we've never been asked by the base to perform any direct official support;  however, we have helped the base non profit support organization/council in a few ways both in CAP uniform and not in a CAP uniform.
RM       

[coudano]

there would need to be a mission or "need" that couldn't be filled by the reserve or guard personnel on hand,
and quite frankly, right now,
that is not the situation.  and I dont think it will be anytime soon (even WITH budget cuts)

I feel comfortable in saying that there probably aren't many AFR unit commanders that couldn't use at least a few general purpose folks around to take care of some stuff that would free up personnel to focus on the really important work.

I feel comfortable in saying that is /not/ the case in any of the units I have been in or associated with, or unit commanders that I have worked with or for.

[Ed Bos]

Eclipse -- I had to laugh about some of your comments.   You exhibit some of the "typical" mindset of some members of CAP in their view as alleged "officers".

You're comments are short sighted. Officers of the Civil Air Patrol are officers... of the Civil Air Patrol. There are no allegations of anything else.

Perhaps all of us need to reread and get a complete understanding of AFI 10-2701, http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf, especially paragraph 1-3 Status Of Personnel: 
   1.3.  Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,  reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

Since the USAF prescribes our uniform wear, it is well within their rights to prescribe the "specialized" uniform that will be worn in the VSAF program or when providing any other support to them.

The point you're missing is that the Civil Air Patrol is a viable organization in its own right, and should recognized and esteemed for itself. It DOES NOT MATTER that we're not military officers. It matters that we're CAP officers, and take our cues for leading our own organization appropriately. That means taking our own uniforms and the integrity of the corporation seriously. To not use a previously approved uniform for the VSAF program shows a complete disregard for CAP and our status as the auxiliary.

The AF has the "rights" make prescriptions regarding our uniform. They also have the responsibility to not further denigrate our group and create additional rules and requirements at the whim of individual program managers.

I volunteer in CAP to do "Missions for America" IF the USAF wanted me to wear a pink bunny rabbit outfit  :angel: while supporting them I personally wouldn't have any issue, since I'm not caught up in the "wanna bee" factor that exists in CAP and to a certain extent has hurt the organization overall    Perhaps the overall organizational "mind set" also impacted the potential effectiveness of this program      

I would not wear a pink bunny rabbit outfit to support my country in any way. That's stupid. It would show no self-respect and no respect for CAP or the Air Force. This has nothing to do with a "wanna bee" factor, this has to do with an "I am" factor. I am a person who works hard, I am a man that believes in giving to my community and nation, and I am a member of a team that should not be subject to ridicule because we are so caught up in sucking up to the Air Force that we allow them to needlessly tear down the things that matter to the Civil Air Patrol.

Additionally, I would agree the sustainability of daily support would be questionable.   At our squadron, we've never been asked by the base to perform any direct official support;  however, we have helped the base non profit support organization/council in a few ways both in CAP uniform and not in a CAP uniform.

That's a viable concern, however if CAP began to augment the AF Reserves, this might be less of an issue because of the part-time nature of many Reserve functions.

[RADIOMAN015]

My comments are in red below:

Eclipse -- I had to laugh about some of your comments.   You exhibit some of the "typical" mindset of some members of CAP in their view as alleged "officers".

You're comments are short sighted. Officers of the Civil Air Patrol are officers... of the Civil Air Patrol. There are no allegations of anything else.
COMMENT:  My general opinion, is there's a potential for a fair number of members in the organization that are inclined to participate in "leakage" of the CAP bling wear and rank protocol to outside the organization and this doesn't necessarily always foster great relationships with the AF or the activity being supported.  I also think that in most instances, there's no malice intended (I don't even think the CAP member is aware) but it just happens and it may not be CAP fault at all times.

Perhaps all of us need to reread and get a complete understanding of AFI 10-2701, http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf, especially paragraph 1-3 Status Of Personnel: 
   1.3.  Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,  reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

Since the USAF prescribes our uniform wear, it is well within their rights to prescribe the "specialized" uniform that will be worn in the VSAF program or when providing any other support to them.

The point you're missing is that the Civil Air Patrol is a viable organization in its own right, and should recognized and esteemed for itself. It DOES NOT MATTER that we're not military officers. It matters that we're CAP officers, and take our cues for leading our own organization appropriately. That means taking our own uniforms and the integrity of the corporation seriously. To not use a previously approved uniform for the VSAF program shows a complete disregard for CAP and our status as the auxiliary.

The AF has the "rights" make prescriptions regarding our uniform. They also have the responsibility to not further denigrate our group and create additional rules and requirements at the whim of individual program managers.

COMMENTS:  Well the fact is the AF decided that the modified non standard uniform (polo with tan pants) would be best to perform this VSAF mission effectively.   CAP agreed to this.   Also this isn't the first time CAP has modified uniforms or not worn uniforms.  Didn't the McGuire AFB Airshow support require that only a special TShirt be worn with no rank (although the BDU, Blue BDU pants could be worn)   Haven't we flown missions in the past where the customer did not want any CAP uniforms worn

Even the AF will dictate at times that NO uniforms be worn by their personnel.  AF OSI agents don't wear uniforms (typically wear polo shirt with their logo on it or just civilian business type suits).  Even in the distance past, a unit I was stationed with in the middle east had an operating location at a major civilian airport, and at times our personnel would not wear any military uniforms.

I volunteer in CAP to do "Missions for America" IF the USAF wanted me to wear a pink bunny rabbit outfit  :angel: while supporting them I personally wouldn't have any issue, since I'm not caught up in the "wanna bee" factor that exists in CAP and to a certain extent has hurt the organization overall    Perhaps the overall organizational "mind set" also impacted the potential effectiveness of this program      

I would not wear a pink bunny rabbit outfit to support my country in any way. That's stupid. It would show no self-respect and no respect for CAP or the Air Force. This has nothing to do with a "wanna bee" factor, this has to do with an "I am" factor. I am a person who works hard, I am a man that believes in giving to my community and nation, and I am a member of a team that should not be subject to ridicule because we are so caught up in sucking up to the Air Force that we allow them to needlessly tear down the things that matter to the Civil Air Patrol.

COMMENT: Well my point is, that the "customer" may dictate the uniform that they deem will get the mission done effectively.  CAP members need to be flexible and understand this.  We still know who WE are.  The customer also knows WHO WE ARE.  Surely the pink bunny rabbit suit would be extreme, BUT IF it helped the USAF, what's the big deal   Also again the AF in this VSAF program surely decided for a valid reason to ensure differentiation from it's regular military & civilian personnel.  It could be security & safety related, but also might be an easy way of evaluating the effectiveness of this program. 

All of us are volunteers and if we decide any mission is not within our comfort zone, we can elect not to participate -- although I would sincerely hope that most would not opted out because of modified/no uniform requirements. 
   

Additionally, I would agree the sustainability of daily support would be questionable.   At our squadron, we've never been asked by the base to perform any direct official support;  however, we have helped the base non profit support organization/council in a few ways both in CAP uniform and not in a CAP uniform.

That's a viable concern, however if CAP began to augment the AF Reserves, this might be less of an issue because of the part-time nature of many Reserve functions.

COMMENT:  Well at our Reserve Base, they've got so many AF Reservists, that they had to split training into two weekends to ensure there was enough facility space & work (likely on the aircraft), to ensure effective training of the traditional reservists.  There was a period during security forces deployments that resulted in other military reserve services, assisting with security on the base.   Also in the distant past, CAP has assisted by providing a large group of "casualties" for a major military/FEMA medical treatment/evacuation exercise.  Some wore CAP uniforms and others wore or were given old clothes due to the injuries makeup procedures.    Perhaps one time projects such as this make more sense.

HOWEVER, I believe the original VSAF program was at active duty bases and was a weekday schedule, which could result in less personnel being available.  Perhaps CAP through channels could ask AFRC if they need some assistance on weekends.  HOWEVER, I would think again that the availability and skills required might be limitation at each specific location being supported by specific CAP units.  Personally, I wouldn't want to work all week long and than go on base and work all weekend long.
RM   
       

[a2capt]

Good lord. You must be a commie with all that red.

[RADIOMAN015]

Good lord. You must be a commie with all that red.

Well I'm only using one of CAP official colors.

RM

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse -- I had to laugh about some of your comments.   You exhibit some of the "typical" mindset of some members of CAP in their view as alleged "officers".    Perhaps all of us need to reread and get a complete understanding of AFI 10-2701.

Great Bog in Devon, you never stop, do you?  You never miss a chance to press forward with YOUR vision of what CAP is and is not..."we are the CIVIL Air Patrol," the flying all-ES, all-the-time, polo-shirted club with no quasi-military aspects, that needs to look like the American Red Cross!

I have a copy of AFI 10-2701.  I have it printed off and in my binder.  That's the document with the bloody ridiculous stipulation of "low-light/at-a-distance" (meaning: it's our fault if some illiterate airman can't recognise the letters "CAP").

Air Force Reserve & Air National Guard bases, generally have Air Reserve/Air Guard Technicians, on duty during the week (as well as weekends) that wear the appropriate AF uniform but are actually civilian unionized employees NOT subject to UCMJ. 

Apples and oranges.

ART (Air Reserve Technicians) and AGR (Active Guard Reserve) are two totally separate jobs.  ART's are completely Federal.  AGR's are employed by their State.  I tried to get an AGR slot, but those are few and far between.

My unit meets on an ANG installation, and during the week and non-drill weekends it is a private security company who runs the main gate.  You'll occasionally see someone in a blue beret there, but that's usually restricted to drill weekends.

I'm not caught up in the "wanna bee" factor that exists in CAP and to a certain extent has hurt the organization overall

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.


I don't know where you keep digging up these "wannabees" but in almost 18 years in CAP I have run across very, very few...and some of those have been cadets who think they're re-enacting "Full Metal Jacket" and have to eat a slice of reality pie.

Whether you like it or not, or whatever way you try to spin or re-name it there is one salient fact.

WE ARE OFFICERS.  WE ARE CAP OFFICERS.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This has nothing to do with a "wanna bee" factor, this has to do with an "I am" factor. I am a person who works hard, I am a man that believes in giving to my community and nation, and I am a member of a team that should not be subject to ridicule because we are so caught up in sucking up to the Air Force that we allow them to needlessly tear down the things that matter to the Civil Air Patrol.

Which has been happening at least since the "berry boards" era.

CAP is so caught up in that mindset of toing and froing over "distinctiveness" and "oh, this will offend the Air Force!" predictions and it has calcified a lot of the organisation's thinking.

THAT harms us worse than any purported "wannabees."

[RADIOMAN015]

WE ARE OFFICERS.  WE ARE CAP OFFICERS.

hey, I agree at ANY CAP internal activity this is fine.  Officership yourself and others till you drop :angel:  Once you get out into the "real world", I've found that the term "adult mentors to teenagers in leadership and other skills" and also "unpaid volunteers trained in providing emergency services including......" in external public relations works best in describing us to the press.    I will put both senior members and cadets ranks in written press releases.   I've found that when this CAP officer term (and all the other mumbo jumbo that goes with it) is used it leads to confusion and it is better to stay with a simple adult and teenager description along with emphasizing the particular mission being performed for that news release/tv segment. The pictures and video does show the members rank.  Every press release I've sent to the media gets published (BUT I am selective as to what I send and set up with the TV stations) (with one exception).  I am the only PAO in the wing that has ever gotten TV news coverage of major events at least in the last 5 years or so.

Here again, members need to realize that mission requirements may dictate a modified uniform or NO uniform.  Historically, CAP has done this before.  Your training, leadership, & discipline isn't going to be dictated by the uniform you wear or don't wear.   Be flexible with the "customer".   Just perform the assigned mission successfully.

RM
       

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

hey, I agree at ANY CAP internal activity this is fine.  Officership yourself and others till you drop

It does not work that way, no matter how much you may wish it.  In CAP, we are always CAP Officers (and NCO's), whenever we do anything related to CAP, "internal" and "external."

Once you get out into the "real world", I've found that the term "adult mentors to teenagers in leadership and other skills" and also "unpaid volunteers trained in providing emergency services including......" in external public relations works best in describing us to the press.   

Do not purport to lecture me or anyone else about the "real world."  Police officers have ranks.  Firefighters have ranks.  The Customs officers who check me coming back from Canada have ranks.  I certainly don't wear my Captain's bars when I'm doing anything non-CAP, nor do I require anyone to address me as "Captain."

I will put both senior members and cadets ranks in written press releases.   I've found that when this CAP officer term (and all the other mumbo jumbo that goes with it) is used it leads to confusion and it is better to stay with a simple adult and teenager description along with emphasizing the particular mission being performed for that news release/tv segment.

I don't care how good of a PAO you are, and you may well be a good one, you do not have licence to rewrite SOP on PAO or any other sort of correspondence...I have a master rating in Administration and I don't take it upon myself to write correspondence according to my own preferences.

I am the only PAO in the wing that has ever gotten TV news coverage of major events at least in the last 5 years or so.

That may or may not be.  Nonetheless, it does not give you licence to deviate from standard CAP procedure.

Here again, members need to realize that mission requirements may dictate a modified uniform or NO uniform. 

Really?  Who decrees what is to be "modified" and in what way?

You are aware, of course, that performing CAP operations without a CAP uniform may lead to your not being covered by the insurance CAP has on you?

Historically, CAP has done this before. 

Cite examples, outside of the work we've done with certain Federal agencies who have requested this.  There is no "secret squirrel," "black ops," or whatever that calls us to not wear uniforms.

Your training, leadership, & discipline isn't going to be dictated by the uniform you wear or don't wear.   

I don't think anyone on CT is saying that it does.

Be flexible with the "customer".   

Within the boundaries of CAP and/or Air Force regulations.

[Ed Bos]

Be flexible with the "customer". 

We deserve better from the AF than a "customer/provider" relationship. As their auxiliary, we should be considered partners in many regards.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We deserve better from the AF than a "customer/provider" relationship. As their auxiliary, we should be considered partners in many regards.

We should be...but we are not.

[coudano]

You are aware, of course, that performing CAP operations without a CAP uniform may lead to your not being covered by the insurance CAP has on you?

That's pretty thin, you know... right?
So 160 cadets asleep at night at encampment aren't covered?

How about 40 cadets on Tuesday night running the CPFT?

Or a half dozen wearing *gasp* polo's and khakis, on IACE?

Can you cite a real life case (in history?) where someone in CAP was denied insurance by CAP's provider because of what clothes they were wearing?

CAP is *famous* for this sort of hyperbole on this subject as well as others.  (my favorite is "oooo don't do that, it'll piss off mother blue".  the sad but real truth is that mother blue PROBABLY isn't watching, and doesn't give a crap).  Yes I get it, CAP has been burned before so people's knee jerk reaction is to go so far in the other direction that it seems like the idea that we NEVER come any where close to where someone could possibly cross THAT line again.  But there are lines in the other extreme as well, that you also do not want to cross.  Like most things worth doing well, you have to balance two or more things in tension, appropriately (and the definition of 'appropriate' might change over time, or from one location to another).  Some people just aren't good at that.



Also to the thread in general:  You do understand that the actual USAF does some (actual active-duty) things in non-official polo and khaki, right?

[wuzafuzz]

Is it "wanna bee" or "wanna be?"  I'm thinking the latter unless someone is in the market for bumble bees.  Just sayin'  ;-)

Personally I see wanna be's and posers as two very different things, but a lot of people use them interchangeably.

Back when I was a Law Enforcement Explorer the "wanna be" phrase was occasionally directed my way.  My response?  "I'm a "gonna be."  That usually shut people up.  Then I pursued and achieved my goal.

Now I'm a bit more of a "has been" but I still proudly accept the title of "wanna be."  You see, I want to be professional in my CAP role and I know many of us strive for that.  I want to be the best darn MRO, CUL, DC, etc I can be.  I work hard at CAP and know a lot of others who do as well.  We want to be good at what we do and we actively avoid becoming "just volunteers." 

Posers deserve all the ridicule they get since they are presenting themselves as something they are not.  Sometimes overzealous folks drift into poser territory.  Set them straight in a hurry.  If they don't get the hint, cut bait!

As far as CAP supporting AF Reserve, that sounds neat.  Whether it's workable depends on the local circumstances.  I suspect it would meet the same fate as VSAF.  There might be pockets of success that are more a factor of local relationships than the overall program.

[RiverAux]

As far as CAP supporting AF Reserve, that sounds neat.  Whether it's workable depends on the local circumstances.  I suspect it would meet the same fate as VSAF.  There might be pockets of success that are more a factor of local relationships than the overall program.

Finally, someone back on topic....

I think the experience of SDFs augmenting the National Guard and CG Aux augmenting the CG agrees with your assessment that local relationships are critical.  In neither of the above cases is there really a national (CG/CG Aux) or state (SDF/NG) "program" as such (with a few, very tiny exceptions for programs such as AUX CHEF in the CG Aux).  Each unit is going to have different missions, manning levels, and needs that are going to vary over time. 

However, while there may never be a nationally-directed CAP augmentation program, as pointed out in this and the VSAF threads, there are administrative hurdles in CAP and the AF that need national level fixes in order to allow locally-designed and led programs to flourish.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Can you cite a real life case (in history?) where someone in CAP was denied insurance by CAP's provider because of what clothes they were wearing?

All I know is what the regs say, and what I've been told by people who are smarter on the subject than me.

(my favorite is "oooo don't do that, it'll piss off mother blue".  the sad but real truth is that mother blue PROBABLY isn't watching, and doesn't give a crap).  Yes I get it, CAP has been burned before so people's knee jerk reaction is to go so far in the other direction that it seems like the idea that we NEVER come any where close to where someone could possibly cross THAT line again.

Agreed 1000%.  We have become a load of nervous Nellies WRT the AF.

Also to the thread in general:  You do understand that the actual USAF does some (actual active-duty) things in non-official polo and khaki, right?

I do, like some family support things.  I also know your POV, which is to get the entire CAP in corporate uniforms.

I personally don't think supporting AFRES or any other AF component is very imminent.  The waters have become too poisoned for us over the past two decades.