CAPR174-1 Change 1

[RADIOMAN015]

see:  http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R174_001_F7C3242683CC7.pdf
Looks like it incorporates the policy letter into the change in specific punitive actions that can be taken against members and/or units that lose, damage, or destroy CAP equipment.  Looks to me like with the exception of Acts of God, the member/unit is ALWAYS going to have to pay.

Would be very interesting to see a quarterly public report to the membership on Category 1, 2, & 3 losses, total assessments, and writeoffs.  Wouldn't that be good transparency     For those with radio equipment assigned it can't be put on your insurance because you don't own it   Rumor has it that there's radios sitting around at various wings because members are unwilling to sign them out.   I guess CAP never heard of asset insurance and is going by the USAF's policy for paid military members that if you lose or break it you pay for it.   No other major volunteer organization in the US is that punitive on their dedicated volunteer members
RM
RM 

[Eclipse]

...if you lose or break it you pay for it.

Welcome to the real world, where people are held responsible for their actions...

No other major volunteer organization in the US is that punitive on their dedicated volunteer members

Doubt it.

CAP is only going to hold a member responsible for situations of negligence.  Is expecting you to keep track of, and return a $2500+ radio, or a $1500
computer too much to ask?

[RADIOMAN015]

...if you lose or break it you pay for it.

Welcome to the real world, where people are held responsible for their actions...

No other major volunteer organization in the US is that punitive on their dedicated volunteer members

Doubt it.

CAP is only going to hold a member responsible for situations of negligence.  Is expecting you to keep track of, and return a $2500+ radio, or a $1500
computer too much to ask?

Check with your local Red Cross Chapter what your liability is as a volunteer?   Let me put it in non military wanna bee terms 'CAP SHOULD BUY ADEQUATE INSURANCE TO COVER IT'S LOSSES & REPAIR OF EQUIPMENT'    Remember we are talking about non paid volunteers.

Lets see National give us a briefing on what these losses are and what the membership is paying out of their pockets than the membership can talk with their leadership about what they would like to see change.  Of course if you hide statistics (on costs to volunteers), you aren't being very transparent to the organization of dedicated volunteers are you
RM   

[davidsinn]

...if you lose or break it you pay for it.

Welcome to the real world, where people are held responsible for their actions...

No other major volunteer organization in the US is that punitive on their dedicated volunteer members

Doubt it.

CAP is only going to hold a member responsible for situations of negligence.  Is expecting you to keep track of, and return a $2500+ radio, or a $1500
computer too much to ask?

Check with your local Red Cross Chapter what your liability is as a volunteer?   Let me put it in non military wanna bee terms 'CAP SHOULD BUY ADEQUATE INSURANCE TO COVER IT'S LOSSES & REPAIR OF EQUIPMENT'

Why should my dues go up to cover the insurance increase after you break something through your negligence?

[Eclipse]

Radio, it's getting old, man.

[RADIOMAN015]

Radio, it's getting old, man.

Respectively it isn't  There's some changes that DO have to be made to protect dedicated volunteer who have accidents, may loose equipment, or may break equipment, with no bad intentions towards CAP.    I've seen members screwed by the system and until I start seeing some statistics on what really is happening with these assessments, when appropriate I will bring the subject up. :angel:
RM

[davidsinn]

Radio, it's getting old, man.

Respectively it isn't  There's some changes that DO have to be made to protect dedicated volunteer who have accidents, may loose equipment, or may break equipment, with no bad intentions towards CAP.    I've seen members screwed by the system and until I start seeing some statistics on what really is happening with these assessments, when appropriate I will bring the subject up. :angel:
RM

There are very few ways to legitimately break or lose equipment that does not involve negligence. It's called taking care of the stuff the taxpayers entrusted you with.

[Eclipse]

There's an easy fix for this - don't accept responsibility for anything you are incapable of caring for properly.

Those of us who wear big-boy pants will be fine.

[NCRblues]

Radio, it's getting old, man.

Respectively it isn't  There's some changes that DO have to be made to protect dedicated volunteer who have accidents, may loose equipment, or may break equipment, with no bad intentions towards CAP.    I've seen members screwed by the system and until I start seeing some statistics on what really is happening with these assessments, when appropriate I will bring the subject up. :angel:
RM

Uh, wait, were you not in the military at one point in time? because if you were, you would know this is no different that the military or your local library.

If you break it you buy it, simple.

If I broke the GOV i was driving when on active duty, i paid for it. If they issued me LBE or PPE and i broke it, when i went to outprocess, they took that broke item back AND made me pay for it (ohhhhh so that's where 75% of my last paycheck went...)

Why should it be any different in CAP. If i give you something in good faith and you lose/brake it, you should pay for it.

Remember (those of us that have been through AF basic) when a trainee would drop a plate or a glass and the T.I.'s would all scream "AND THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE #&%$"....same principle applies.

[RADIOMAN015]

There's an easy fix for this - don't accept responsibility for anything you are incapable of caring for properly.

Those of us who wear big-boy pants will be fine.

Well the real big boys and not the foolish wanna bees would be taking a good look at other non profits and how they protect their unpaid volunteers from financial harm when things go astray and perhaps show some real care for the volunteers of this organization (news flash for the AF, CAP members are civilian volunteers,not paid military or civilian employees) (that's why non profits have INSURANCE!!!).  Unfortunately AGAIN with humans, errors, losses, & accidents do occur.   Surely I'm not talking about a senior member who has been drinking and has an accident or someone who purposely throws a piece of equipment over a cliff.   Hey I've signed for comm equipment in the squadron as custodian & also individually for a couple of items, and feel there's satisfactory control of the protection of the assets.  HOWEVER, vehicle, wise it's a financial mine field for any member in my opinion.  I'm not sure on the aircraft side if the pilots can get special insurance to cover them, but I would think, that would be very prudent.  (BTW I've never heard of an AF pilot having to pay for an aircraft damaged or destroyed, so if one of the wanna bees on the list can find one please post the specifics).   

BUT Once again got to wonder why CAP is unwilling to provide to the general senior membership a report of the categories, category losses (quantity (split by major asset categories, e.g. vehicles, aircraft, comm equipment, computers, others)  & dollar wise), and total individual assessment (by category) to members (and adjustment writeoffs) (this I'm sure is readily available).  What are they hiding    surely adults can make better informed decisions & judgments based upon the statistics reported.
RM     

[tsrup]

We get it RM,

you don't drive a CAP van.
and you don't wear an AF uniform.

and those who do are wanabees.


did I leave anything out?

[RADIOMAN015]

We get it RM,

you don't drive a CAP van.
and you don't wear an AF uniform.

and those who do are wanabees.


did I leave anything out?

Wow don't make this a uniform thread, it's about the proper protection of dedicated volunteers by the organization who as humans may make an error have an accident. Nothing more and nothing less.  It's about doing the right thing, without adopting all of the USAF mumbo jumbo that doesn't apply to civilian unpaid volunteers.   
RM

[FW]

Didn't we have this discussion last year?   I've never heard of an assessment due to theft, acts of god or, other acts not under the member's control.  It just won't happen.  And, as said in the previous thread; accident insurance for $100 million of  (non depreciated equipment) would bankrupt us. 

Maybe if we had ARC's bank roll things would be a little different....

[RADIOMAN015]

Didn't we have this discussion last year?   I've never heard of an assessment due to theft, acts of god or, other acts not under the member's control.  It just won't happen.  And, as said in the previous thread; accident insurance for $100 million of  (non depreciated equipment) would bankrupt us. 

Maybe if we had ARC's bank roll things would be a little different....

With all due respect.  Lets see some statistics published on how much the individual members are having to pay in comparison with the total dollar loss?   As I said before I am personal familiar with members having to pay for damage in "accidents" while they were in a  duty status assisting at CAP functions  --That isn't right in my book.   Perhaps we need to decrease our assets so that we can afford insurance? other credible non profit organization apparently are able to budget properly for appropriate risk mitigation --  again this is NOT the USAF, we are civilian organization with unpaid volunteer civilians, who deserve protection
RM

[PHall]

And once more RM I ask the question. "Why are you in CAP?"

As far as anybody can tell from your posts here on CAPTalk you have nothing good to say about the organization and it's members.

And before you try to tar me with your wanna be brush, I retired from the Air Force Reserve with over 31 years of service.

So I ain't a wanna be...

[Eclipse]

And once more RM I ask the question. "Why are you in CAP?

Please, enlighten us, because their are any number of other organizations with, apparently, a more appropriate risk level to
your personal ORM.

[RADIOMAN015]

And once more RM I ask the question. "Why are you in CAP?

Please, enlighten us, because their are any number of other organizations with, apparently, a more appropriate risk level to
your personal ORM.

I enjoy participating in CAP's 3 mission areas, and do what I can to contribute to and what I am "comfortable" with both from a financial & safety risk, as well as my personal limitations.  I would image that many other CAP members do the same thing (and I know of one very motivated member that upon checking with his/her insurance company regarding the CAP vehicle, found it would be too expensive to carry a rider on the policy the way it was written --- none of us join to put ourselves in financial distress.

I am also entitled to my opinion and will express it.  Some of you might not like it and that's your right also.   I really hope that members in a duty status can be better protected from financial harm if they have an accident, lose, or break something, since I do not believe dedicated volunteers should be penalized for their efforts when things go astray.  Maybe there's some sort of supplemental insurance that CAP could try to get as a member benefit (that the member could pay the premium) that would cover "just in case" incidents.  Using the AF model of financial liability is not applicable to unpaid civilians volunteering their time to CAP.
RM     

[Eclipse]

Using the AF model of financial liability is not applicable to unpaid civilians volunteering their time to CAP.

Please define the Air Force model of financial liability.

[Major Lord]

So the penalty for not paying for equipment which CAP determines administratively that you lost is.....non-renewal? I suppose if I crashed a CAP airplane or totalled a CAP van, I would probably be looking for a new home anyway. I was also pleased to see that the regulation allows you to look for lost property if its lost.....thanks to Allah for that reg!

Major Lord

[JeffDG]

So the penalty for not paying for equipment which CAP determines administratively that you lost is.....non-renewal? I suppose if I crashed a CAP airplane or totalled a CAP van, I would probably be looking for a new home anyway. I was also pleased to see that the regulation allows you to look for lost property if its lost.....thanks to Allah for that reg!

Major Lord

Well, in those two cases, if we're talking non-aggregated negligence, you'd be out $500.