Realistic expectations a C/Amn will read and Know the Regulations

[Major Carrales]

For the past few years I have noted many cadets coming to CAPTALK for help and guidance on things from Uniforms to General ES questions.  Most of them are "dogpiled" by a select group of persons here, lambasted and told to "KNOW THE REGULATONS."

Well, its time for a reality check for some of you.

To expect a 12 year-old cadet to fully internalize CAP Regulations and Manuals without guidance and as if they had the reading level, comprehension and years of computer skills (and access) to do so is UNREALISTIC! (yes, I went with the ALL CAPS)

Here's the thing...they come here for guidance.  Pointing them blindly to a regulation may just do more harm than good.

Many of these cadets are just learning to read critically and many have not grasped it.  You can help them with "meaningful" discussion on the matters and a helping hand via PM, if you want to be scarcstic, or on line in the forum if you want to be helpful.

Contrary to what is posted here "the regs are NOT ALWAYS your friend," so start being one.

[BillB]

Add to what Joe said, the regulations often contradict  another regulation. Even experienced senior members on CAPTalk argue about what a regulation says or doesn't say. So how can you expect a cadet to understand the regulations?

[Eclipse]

If they can figure out how to post here, they can figure out how to use Google and the KB.  If they haven't heard of one or either, well, that's an outstanding teachable moment (and don't go into "the KB isn't always right" - it is for nearly everything except issues that are contentious in general, for which there likely isn't a "final" answer.)

They get the same answer from me here that they get in person "What does the regulation say?" I would say that
1/2 the questions asked here are answered in the first 2-3 responses from Google in an unambiguous form.  Further, the search function
seems to be a mysterious and scary feature unfamiliar to cadets who live and breath on the internet.

Few of the questions asked here involve the minutia we argue about, they are generally "Feed me as fishing is too much trouble...", that goes for the Seniors as well.

Show me you have at least tried to find the answer and you will get a more receptive response.

They should also be asking their local leadership first.

[Major Carrales]

Add to what Joe said, the regulations often contradict  another regulation. Even experienced senior members on CAPTalk argue about what a regulation says or doesn't say. So how can you expect a cadet to understand the regulations?

Well said, I had forgotten that issue.

The point is that cadet require guidance, they come to us to serve CAP (if their motives are genuine) and deserve more than just..."here is a link to a reg, what?!? are you too "stupid" to understand it?"

They need, when they come here, a good description of 1) what the regulation says, 2) what that means, 3) help to understand it, 4) proper application (as in how do I use it), then maybe some 5) help analyzing why that practice is so, 6) methods on how what fits into their squadron experience and 7) how to use that process just shown them for future looks at the regulations.

"Teaching someone to fish" is more than just saying "here's a pole, there's the water...not DO it and DO it right."  You all know it requires more than just that.

[Eclipse]

They need, when they come here, a good description of 1) what the regulation says, 2) what that means, 3) help to understand it, 4) proper application (as in how do I use it), then maybe some 5) help analyzing why that practice is so, 6) methods on how what fits into their squadron experience and 7) how to use that process just shown them for future looks at the regulations.

That is the function of their Flt Sgt, Flt CC, and Senior Leadership.  When they come here they are looking for a quick answer.

[Major Carrales]

If they can figure out how to post here, they can figure out how to use Google and the KB.  If they haven't heard of one or either, well, that's an outstanding teachable moment (and don't go into "the KB isn't always right" - it is for nearly everything except issues that are contentious in general, for which there likely isn't a "final" answer.)

They get the same answer from me here that they get in person "What does the regulation say?" I would say that
1/2 the questions asked here are answered in the first 2-3 responses from Google in an unambiguous form.  Further, the search function
seems to be a mysterious and scary feature unfamiliar to cadets who live and breath on the internet.

Few of the questions asked here involve the minutia we argue about, they are generally "Feed me as fishing is too much trouble...", that goes for the Seniors as well.

Show me you have at least tried to find the answer and you will get a more receptive response.

They should also be asking their local leadership first.

Eclipse, you are one of "the good ones" on here, but at times you miss the point of reality.

Finding CAPTALK does not make them a CAP guru of any sort.   It mean they entered some info on CAP into google, or the like, and got this forum.  Some of them are 12 years old and eager to go go things in CAP.  The likely meet once a week and have some question.  Here, this forum and those like it, are where they come to ask from experts...not machines.

The inability of persons on this forum to understand the potentially vast source of 1) CAP information, 2) Auto-correct function based on "watch dog" like threadsters and 3) reasonable response time due to sheer number boggles my mind.

Also, if one's purpose in posting here is not to inform and guide, then why in creation would one come here?  Agendas to proliferate?  Whining?  Spread misinformation?

[Major Carrales]

They need, when they come here, a good description of 1) what the regulation says, 2) what that means, 3) help to understand it, 4) proper application (as in how do I use it), then maybe some 5) help analyzing why that practice is so, 6) methods on how what fits into their squadron experience and 7) how to use that process just shown them for future looks at the regulations.

That is the function of their Flt Sgt, Flt CC, and Senior Leadership.  When they come here they are looking for a quick answer.

Thank you for that "Pontius Pilate" like "washing your hand of it."   If a cadet comes here and asks a questions, it is because they need an answer to avoid being in violation of CAP policy, and sometimes, "culture."

It is odd that so many people here assume every unit is running so smoothly.  Many times people here seem to assume that every unit has some funding, years of "legacy" or the like.  That there might even been a cadet structure in place.  After five yeasr of building we just barely have that.

Fact is, most units are "rag tagged" outfits making miracles out of almost a barebones existance without the benefit of funding.  Getting field uniforms from thrift shops and surplus stores.  I know, been there done that.

Some units are started up "cold start" by very motivated individuals in isolated CAP areas who have to digest the regulations on their own.  Those come here too for guidance.  When you send them to the regulations without the benefit of guidance you are asking for misinterpreation.  I've been there, done that too.  When I first started this I was told by my then GROUP to "look at the regs and supplements" and ended up being almost dressed down for following the policies "to the letter" but not doing it as it should have been done somehow.

Now, when a 12-13 year-old cadet asks a question, I am bound to answer it with information they can use.  When they come here, it should not be a "dog pile," but rather an "huddle" where they get their questions and more addressed.

[RiverAux]

I can sympathize with the general content of your post and if I happen to know the answer off the top of my head, will give it.  Heck, we should support anyone's interest in trying to do something by the book. 

But, some of these posts are asking about where in the regulations some rule is found as if they expect us to look it up for them.  In that situation, I'm a little more inclined to agree with Eclipse's approach. 

[Major Carrales]

I can sympathize with the general content of your post and if I happen to know the answer off the top of my head, will give it.  Heck, we should support anyone's interest in trying to do something by the book. 

But, some of these posts are asking about where in the regulations some rule is found as if they expect us to look it up for them.  In that situation, I'm a little more inclined to agree with Eclipse's approach.

Well written, River.

However, if we could know how many of us actually know every line of text in the regulations, manuals, pamphlets, letters and supplements I think it would be pretty low.  Yes, some of us have it together is our areas of experience.  I've got lots of useful analysis of Cadet, Public Affairs, ES and Flight regulations and pamphlets; but I will not pretend to know every one by memory or those in, let's say, finance, the Chaplaincy or the like. 

Since I no longer command a flying squadron, I am sure the detailed knowledge of flight regulations will soon be lessened, especially if there are changes.

Most on here who post large tracts of quotes on CAP regulations likely used a PDF search function or some other said appratus to quote text from regs they know.  That skill having been learned by years of exposure to Computer skills and use.

A 12-14 year old may not have that...nor have the knoweldge of where to even begin.

Many active CAP Senior Members have a hard time keeping up with Reg Changes, policy letters and Wing Supplements; and it is expected that an emerging teenager would without mentorship and guidance.

My request is for some of the more pontificating members to "lay off" these types of cadets.  Answer their questions, online or in PM and send them the "lecture" you have for them in PM.  Write it in a MSWORD document and save it so you can paste it into the PM when they ask a routine question.

[Cool Mace]

I have to agree Major. Many units don't have the leadership in place for cadets to learn from. Whenever I have a cadet come ask me something, I give them the answer. Afterwards I tell them where they can find it and give them help on understanding it. I always push my cadets to learn the hard way(best way to learn), but if they come up to me and ask how to put a cord on their blues, I'll tell them! Simple enough. I don't see any reason to lecture them on regs and what not. What are the leaders here for? to lead, DUH!

I tell cadets in my Wing to stay away from here if looking for an answer. People don't know where the person asking is coming from and dog pile them like they're the boss of CAP.

[Hawk200]

I think it's unreasonable to assume that every cadet that comes here looking for an answer is only a cadet airman or is only 12 years old. There are some, yes, but not all.

It's not unreasonable to show cadets how to find things. For one thing, there are far too many people in CAP that respond to things with "Well, that's something somebody told me!" There's a lot of people that never bother to ever check regs.

I've also known seniors that don't want cadets to know regs, and that's a serious problem. No one should ever be denied access to pubs, or how to use them.

No, we shouldn't be dogpiling newbies, but newbies shouldn't be averse to learning to find things themselves.

[Major Carrales]

Hawk, let me tell you the reasoning for my post.  Last Friday we passed out a Student Code of Conduct and Student/Parent Handbook at the school where I work at.   As I went over it, just ever so briefly, it became clear to me that most of the students were either unfamiliar with or had a hard time with the wording (and choice of words).

Most students will never read it in totality and will break rules and policies they didn't even know they existed.

This is an error we make in CAP and here at CAPTALK, we assume that cadets will 1) read every printed word in the REGS and 2) understand and apply them in their cadet world.

This is not limited to 12-14 year-olds.  I spoke with an associate at the High School and the same was realization was made.

It is not unreasonable to show a cadet how to find things...but it is to expect that they will understand what is found without guidance.  The discussion is mostly about how answers are addressed in this forum.  "Well, that's something somebody told me!" when used as an answer here, can get corrected and cited by the populace.  But responding by saying "Look in CAPM 39-1" with only that and a smug comment as a guide, with no mention of Policy Letters or the like... well, that is just setting a cadet up.

As for seniors that don't want cadets to know the regulations.  That is another matter altogehter.  I would go on to say again that most CAP Senior Members to not read the regs as well...or only those that apply to them.  I also know some "Golf Shirters" that have never picked up CAPM 39-1, Pilots who have never looked at CAPF 60-1 and a host of others.  (in fact, 4 years ago I posted at one of these forums that we had all aviators do an "executive summary" of CAPF 60-1 and was told I was crazy, it was a waste of time and that I was somehow "grandstanding" as a Squadron Commander...funny how times change)

[lordmonar]

For the past few years I have noted many cadets coming to CAPTALK for help and guidance on things from Uniforms to General ES questions.  Most of them are "dogpiled" by a select group of persons here, lambasted and told to "KNOW THE REGULATONS."

Well, its time for a reality check for some of you.

To expect a 12 year-old cadet to fully internalize CAP Regulations and Manuals without guidance and as if they had the reading level, comprehension and years of computer skills (and access) to do so is UNREALISTIC! (yes, I went with the ALL CAPS)

Here's the thing...they come here for guidance.  Pointing them blindly to a regulation may just do more harm than good.

Many of these cadets are just learning to read critically and many have not grasped it.  You can help them with "meaningful" discussion on the matters and a helping hand via PM, if you want to be scarcstic, or on line in the forum if you want to be helpful.

Contrary to what is posted here "the regs are NOT ALWAYS your friend," so start being one.

Disagree with you on all points.

Yes...I do not expect all cadets to know the regulations chapter and verse....but if C/Amn X comes up to me and says "Major Harris....how do I wear my Hawk Mountain Ranger Tab?".....I first ask their chain of command and/or looked up the regulation.

If they have read the manual and don't understand it or can'f find the information (such as where the HMRS tabs go) I will help them out.

But too often here on CT we see cadets who are asking us things they should be either looking up in the regulations, asking their chain of command, or should already know.

It is not inconsistant to push cadets or SMs to look it up first before asking on CT.

[Daniel]

BillB is on to something here, I'm a C/SMSgt (or so my sig says.)

I just transferred to a new unit and one of my first questions were, how do you want my BDUs prepared? Why? because everyone gets something different out of 39-1.

Its better just to ask the people who are grading you and argue later on Captalk about if its correct.

[MICT1362]

Very interesting thread!

I am in complete agreeance with Major Carrales!  I haven't been here (CT) long, but have been in CAP for close to 10 years.  Not only here, but in person, I often see SM's as well as senior cadets treat subordinates with malice when they ask a question, any question.  My guess is that they do this because that's what was done to them when they started or were a cadet. 

As leaders we are supposed to teach our subordinates and peers, no matter Cadet or Senior.  I often have to assist SM's higher in grade and age in finding things in the regs.  Not that they are incompetent or don't know what they are doing, but simply because they ask.  I do the same with cadets.  The goal is to be empower the person to help themselves the next time.  (Teaching them to fish...)  And, yes use peoples strengths to your advantage.  Every person learns 1 or 2 things better than they do the rest.  You generally wouldn't ask somebody who only wears the Polo/Trousers Combo about Class A Service Dress.  (I did not say that they wouldn't know, but generally speaking, people only know the uniforms that they wear.)

When I was a cadet, this happened to me numerous times.  But there were always a few SM's who were willing to assist me (help me help myself) in finding the answer.  If you have the opportunity to sit down with someone and look with them, you will actually teach them instead of doing it for them.  This also will allow conversation on the topic which may in fact answer more questions that the person has.  You will also earn more respect from people when you act this way instead of simply go saying  "Go look it up".  If the situation warrants it, it may even be better to give a quick answer on the spot and then find time to have a conversation with the member later.  (Sir, How do you wear the shoulder cord?  Correct placement is... ...30 minutes later.... Cadet X, can I show you where I got that information from so you know for the next time?)

Most often the problem rests in the tone.  And yes, you can have tone in your posts.  We can tell when you truly care, and when you seem annoyed.  Seriously, if answering questions annoys you, don't do it.  There are plenty of other people here who want to help.  But, to each his own.  I will continue to help the way that I see fit, and all of you will continue to help the way that you see fit.  The measure of our success will be the respect that we get for our answers to the questions of our peers and subordinates.

-Paramedic

[NC Hokie]

BillB is on to something here, I'm a C/SMSgt (or so my sig says.)

I just transferred to a new unit and one of my first questions were, how do you want my BDUs prepared? Why? because everyone gets something different out of 39-1.

Its better just to ask the people who are grading you and argue later on Captalk about if its correct.

Sorry, sarge, but that dog won't hunt.  If you know the regs (and I believe that you do), you MUST wear the uniform by the regs and be ready to defend yourself with those same regs if the people grading you squawk about something.

[Eclipse]

BillB is on to something here, I'm a C/SMSgt (or so my sig says.)

I just transferred to a new unit and one of my first questions were, how do you want my BDUs prepared? Why? because everyone gets something different out of 39-1.

Its better just to ask the people who are grading you and argue later on Captalk about if its correct.

Sorry, sarge, but that dog won't hunt.  If you know the regs (and I believe that you do), you MUST wear the uniform by the regs and be ready to defend yourself with those same regs if the people grading you squawk about something.

Yep - when someone challenges you, the response should be a respectful "Show me..." (Probably "Please show me, Sir/Ma'am" as you are a cadet...).

If you choose a controversial or unusual uniform or bling, carry the reg in your pocket.  Case in point - I keep a copy of the page that shows the Senior-Member semi-formal, simply because it is fun to see the looks on their faces when they challenge it.

[MSG Mac]

I have been known to hand out rewrittable DVD's of the regs, forms, papmphlets and manuals to all members of my unit. Why, because it gives them the opportunity to read the regulations that apply to them, or maybe explore the requirements for obtaining an ES rating, an award, or just where to go next in their CAP careers. Cost to me about .25/a copy

[Daniel]

BillB is on to something here, I'm a C/SMSgt (or so my sig says.)

I just transferred to a new unit and one of my first questions were, how do you want my BDUs prepared? Why? because everyone gets something different out of 39-1.

Its better just to ask the people who are grading you and argue later on Captalk about if its correct.

Sorry, sarge, but that dog won't hunt.  If you know the regs (and I believe that you do), you MUST wear the uniform by the regs and be ready to defend yourself with those same regs if the people grading you squawk about something.

Yep - when someone challenges you, the response should be a respectful "Show me..." (Probably "Please show me, Sir/Ma'am" as you are a cadet...).

If you choose a controversial or unusual uniform or bling, carry the reg in your pocket.  Case in point - I keep a copy of the page that shows the Senior-Member semi-formal, simply because it is fun to see the looks on their faces when they challenge it.

Challenging superiors when your a c/nco is not a good way to make friends.

[davidsinn]

BillB is on to something here, I'm a C/SMSgt (or so my sig says.)

I just transferred to a new unit and one of my first questions were, how do you want my BDUs prepared? Why? because everyone gets something different out of 39-1.

Its better just to ask the people who are grading you and argue later on Captalk about if its correct.

Sorry, sarge, but that dog won't hunt.  If you know the regs (and I believe that you do), you MUST wear the uniform by the regs and be ready to defend yourself with those same regs if the people grading you squawk about something.

Yep - when someone challenges you, the response should be a respectful "Show me..." (Probably "Please show me, Sir/Ma'am" as you are a cadet...).

If you choose a controversial or unusual uniform or bling, carry the reg in your pocket.  Case in point - I keep a copy of the page that shows the Senior-Member semi-formal, simply because it is fun to see the looks on their faces when they challenge it.

Challenging superiors when your a c/nco is not a good way to make friends.

No, but when your superior is not following the regs you have a duty to challenge them.