Base commander authorizing the beret for CAP.

[Hawk200]

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

No, it's not uniform issue. I've never received one as part of my clothing issue in 22 years of service that spans three components of the military.

And as far as the demand of a cite goes, you cannot demand that when there is nothing to cite. It's basically a demand to prove something does not exist. Let's think logically, now.

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Yet another post implying that a base commander acts like some kind of dictator. Removing CAP from a base would go a lot further that just blocking them at the gate. Have you forgotten that a base commander has a commander, too?

I will agree that a base CO would never order CAP members to order a beret, and most likely would never tell them that they couldn't.

[Patterson]

a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

Agree 100%

Disagree 100%

There are some here that will be happy to get technical with you and throw the regulation cites your way.  Suffice it to say, our regs say we will do our best to meet what the Base Commander has ordered.  PERIOD.  Back a whole page in this thread if I lost you!

Second, you would be flaunting your decision not to follow an order given by the Air Force.  We took an oath that we would follow CAP regs, and those things say, we will follow the orders of the Air Force.  The Base Commander represents the Air Force. 

This is the type of crap that got us the uniforms we are in now.  Lets gladly repeat the past.  Some people here need to start reasoning with FACTS, not beliefs. 

[Short Field]

Just read all the members who climb up on their soap boxes to cite regs about how base commanders can't make them do this or that and then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

[Patterson]

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

No, it's not uniform issue. I've never received one as part of my clothing issue in 22 years of service that spans three components of the military.

And as far as the demand of a cite goes, you cannot demand that when there is nothing to cite. It's basically a demand to prove something does not exist. Let's think logically, now.

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Yet another post implying that a base commander acts like some kind of dictator. Removing CAP from a base would go a lot further that just blocking them at the gate. Have you forgotten that a base commander has a commander, too?

OK.

[Hawk200]

Just read all the members who climb up on their soap boxes to cite regs about how base commanders can't make them do this or that and then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

What bases currently bar CAP from the installation? Actual cases where CAP is specifically limited from entry.

I've known units that moved off installations for their own reasons, but none that have been barred.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Attention members of CAPTalk: Please flip your brain switch to the "on" position.

My interpretation of the OP was that the Base/CC authorized wear of the beret on his installation, if CAP allowed it as well.

But, if the Base/CC requires distinctive headgear for CAP, we do have ball caps that are authorized. No big deal.

As for the Beret itself: As of right this second, the NBB beret is only authorized for wear during NBB. If that were to change, a Unit Commander would still have all the power in the world to say "no beret." In my neck of the woods, the Blue Beret is a mark of shame and disloyalty to the Wing. Not officially, but the phrase "Blue Berry" is a joke in my neck of the woods.

A base commander can require wear of a reflective belt while on base, but if that proves to be difficult, my personal experience has told me that they usually are more than willing to approve ANSI class 2 vests, that any GTM should have anyway.

Basically, unless our regs say that we can't do it, the Base Commander can require it.

[flyboy53]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

As far as the beret is concerned, yes it reflects elitism. Is there a need for it in the CAP, no. We are all supposed to be one team, with everyone working together. We, as an organization, have enough problems just getting people to wear uniforms properly. Why do we have to add a symbol of elitism when cadets/senior members go to the variety of other national activities and only earn a patch or a badge.

The CAP beret thing stated under Brig. Gen. Cass. At the time, I think there were three really strong ground team-type programs in the CAP and each one "pumped their chests" to be better than the others. OK competition is good, but  in my long history with the CAP, I've seen how that elitism can destroy a unit. As a cadet in the Pennsylvania Wing, kids would go to Hawk Mountain to earn ranger ratings, come back to the unit and the next thing you know AE stuff is thrown out the window for the sake of Ranger training.

[Eclipse]

That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

I wouldn't further engage this, but if you were a RAP and a liaison, you know that's not the case, nor is this remotely about anything that would involve the FBI, AFOSI, FDA, MPAA, or AARP (ok, maybe AARP).

A base CC can invite you to play in his sandbox, dis-invite you, or place restrictions on which of his toys you can play with, he cannot make up rules and policies for an organization outside his chain of command.

[flyboy53]

That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

I wouldn't further engage this, but if you were a RAP and a liaison, you know that's not the case, nor is this remotely about anything that would involve the FBI, AFOSI, FDA, MPAA, or AARP (ok, maybe AARP).

A base CC can invite you to play in his sandbox, dis-invite you, or place restrictions on which of his toys you can play with, he cannot make up rules and policies for an organization outside his chain of command.

I never said the incident in question was tied to my experiences as a base liaison or CAP RAP NCO, I was in fact the group commander at the time. It was meant, however, to explain my comments from a refrence point of a level of experience.

As far as the orginal subject of what a base commander can or can not do, it is also my experience that people tend to never learn from the experiences of others, they learn on their own the hard way, so be it.

[JK657]

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

[PHall]

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

[HGjunkie]

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

troll/10

[Eclipse]

I never said the incident in question was tied to my experiences as a base liaison or CAP RAP NCO, I was in fact the group commander at the time. It was meant, however, to explain my comments from a refrence point of a level of experience.

As far as the orginal subject of what a base commander can or can not do, it is also my experience that people tend to never learn from the experiences of others, they learn on their own the hard way, so be it.

So...

Your experience isn't relevant, but we better learn from it or we'll suffer the consequences?

[Short Field]

then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

What bases currently bar CAP from the installation? Actual cases where CAP is specifically limited from entry.

Restrict - not barred.  I was referring to the bases - and the CAPTALK members don't always name them - that have restricted access to CAP members.  There are several examples on CAPTALK of members having to request access through the SD so that an access letter can be provided to the gate guards.  In some cases, the request needed to be submitted a month in advance.  This was at a base where CAP had an office.

[ZigZag911]

When CAP is on any military installation, we are guests and should conduct ourselves as such.

This means conforming willingly and cheerfully with base directives.

If the base requirement conflicts with CAP regulations, notify your chain of command...the wing CC or, more likely, state director will look into it

This reminds me of visits from my niece and nephew who, chafing a bit under how we do things in our home, have been known to explain "But Mommy says we can do this!"

Which earns a simple, direct response from their kindly uncle (me!): "Mommy's not here!"

[Eclipse]

Zig, I agree with the first part, but the inverse reality is that just because you're at Grandma's house and she says something is OK, doesn't mean that when mom finds out there won't be trouble!

[JK657]

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

I'm just throwing it there since many people are anti-beret. Does changing the item change people's opinion on the matter?

[Hawk200]

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

I'm just throwing it there since many people are anti-beret. Does changing the item change people's opinion on the matter?

Not really. A base commander just isn't going to do any of the hypothiticals here in the manner that some people imply. Base commanders are quite aware that they have a wide variety of personnel on their installations, and they know the channels to go through.

Any restrictions are going to come down our chain. That's how the military works, you don't tell the joe on the street what your policies are, you deliver it through channels. Anything unique to a base is presented at inbriefings when personnel arrive. CAP personnel don't just walk in and take over meeting space, it's coordinated. Most base liaisons will come to meetings on occasion to pass out any pertinent information, usually after coordinating with the state director. It's a lot more organized than most people think.

A base commander is just not going to hunt down Joe Blow, CAP and tell them that they can or can't wear a certain item.

[ZigZag911]

Zig, I agree with the first part, but the inverse reality is that just because you're at Grandma's house and she says something is OK, doesn't mean that when mom finds out there won't be trouble!

Actually, Eclipse, I was referring to stricter rules at my house!

BTW, "Mom" agrees: the kids play by our rules when at our place!

The corollary, of course, is that CAP should adhere to base regulations, even if CAP regs are more permissive...when in Rome and all that.

[raivo]

A base commander is just not going to hunt down Joe Blow, CAP and tell them that they can or can't wear a certain item.

... which is why I can't understand why this thread is still going.