Base commander authorizing the beret for CAP.

[Eclipse]

Split from the soon to be locked NESA photo thread.

Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

If the Base Commander allows CAP to wear the beret, then it's legal.

How do you figure?

A random base CC who is not also a CAP member (or maybe CAP-USAF), has no authority over CAP members other than behavior and conduct while on their base.  They certainly have no authority to grant the wear of a uniform item.

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

[N Harmon]

I had a member claim his USAF ballcap...



...was authorized for wear with the BDUs because the CAP-USAF liaison said it was.

[lordmonar]

I had a member claim his USAF ballcap...



...was authorized for wear with the BDUs because the CAP-USAF liaison said it was.

Amaizing how even the "professionals" get it wrong.

[Mustang]

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot. 

[DakRadz]

I'll go ahead and steal Eclipse's thunder:

Cite please.

[Major Carrales]

Here we have a fine line.  On one hand you want to adhere to CAP "black-and-white" guidelines in print and on the other hand you have to adhere to local policies.  I ran into this in a uniform discussion at Civil Air Portal once...someone pointed to a clip on badge (required on the flight line and by some schools) citing it as a "blatant disregard for regulations" with the usual "if-this-guy- can't-follow-uniform-regulations-what-else-is he-disregarding" nonsense argument.

There are times...usually at airports and other secure places, like schools and the like, where you need to add the badges or you cannot enter.  Commonsense dictates a realistic approach to these things.  If not, using an oxygen mask on an aircraft or ambulance while in uniform would violatr uniform policy and you would be obligied to die for the uniform regulations.

There are some times when issues of this nature create a precarious situation.  Suppose you do meet at a base and its commander mandates some sort of additional uniform items?  Two issues at play...1) your unit is a guest on a FEDERAL INSTALLATION and obligied to comply 2) the BASE COMMANDER is in full charge of the facility as per militay protocol and thus, you are obliged to comply.

Next issue is...why is the base commander mandating beret wear?  It seems more likely that someone sought out this permission from the commander as opposed to it being mandated out of the blue.  I mean, why would a Base Commander make such a demand of a CAP Unit?  It was my understanding that the wear of berets in the USAF denoted security personal or some other specialty.  Why would the USAF Auxiliary wear one if that was the case.

Lastly, WORD of MOUTH is no substitute for written documenation...added to that, WING LOs, Wing Commanders, Region Commander and even the highest levels do not tha "Papal Mandate" authority to create verbal CAP Policy.

[Mustang]

No cite required, it's called "command authority"*--which means a tad more in the RealMilitary™ than it does in CAP, where even a wing commander can't do much without region, national/NHQ and/or CAP-USAF approval.

*Command authority is the authority leaders have over their troops by virtue of rank or assignment. Command authority originates with the President and may be supplemented by law or regulation.

But, since you asked:

COMMAND AUTHORITY OVER CIVILIANS

-   The commander has authority over civilian employees on base
--      The commander acts as the employer of civilian employees
--      The commander can give promotions and bonuses, as well as impose sanctions
--      The AFI 36 series defines this relationship

-   The commander has less authority over nonemployee civilians on base
--      As "mayor" of the base, the installation commander has authority to maintain order and discipline, and to protect federal resources
--      As a practical matter, this authority may be limited to detaining individuals for civilian law enforcement officials and barring them from the installation
--      The installation commander may bar an individual from the base for misconduct but must follow certain procedural requirements

-    The commander has almost no authority over civilians off base.

References:  AFI 51-604, Appointment To and Assumption of Command, 1 October 2000

[lordmonar]

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

[DakRadz]

I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride. 

[Eclipse]

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Or permit / require the wear of something otherwise prohibited or restricted by our regulations.

[MSG Mac]

I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride. 

(3) The Blue Beret can only be worn at the activity

[HGjunkie]

I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride. 

(3) The Blue Beret can only be worn at the activity

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1851&p_created=1158847849

[Pylon]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

[HGjunkie]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

Couldn't have said it better myself!                   

[Short Field]

Last para of the motion to approve wear of the Blue Beret with BDUs:

ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

National Hqs has not implemented this change.

[MSG Mac]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1851&p_created=1158847849

The above wasn't incorporated into CAPM 39-1 and is not listed in any ICL's posted since it was issued. So the following still applies.

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 13
Table 1-3. Additional Items That May Be Authorized by the Wing/Region Commander
L
I
N
E Item Information
4 Berets Only blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

[DakRadz]

All of the above, plus:

Unless it is an unlawful order, comply with it; if there is that much contention, comply and at the same time seek guidance/advice from chain of command, CAP-USAF, etc.

[Eclipse]

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

[Pylon]

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

[arajca]

a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.