Base commander authorizing the beret for CAP.

[Eclipse]

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times,

Of course not, and I don't know why this was injected into the conversation - access and safety items are not what we are discussing here...

will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Prohibiting a uniform item is not the same as authorizing something we can't normally wear.  One service's commander can't mandate changing another service's uniform specifications with due process and a valid reason, especially in a non-combat area.  Further, unless that commander is also going to issue those blues, they aren't going to get very far.

That would far exceed their authority of base safety and tenancy.

[DakRadz]

Th

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

At this point, you go talk to the base CC to find out why he hates you...

If the problem is with an incorrect perception, or with a member lower in position than the Sqd/CC, then everything could be easily handled by a sensible Sqd/CC and/or squadron staff.
If the Sqd/CC is the problem- that's certainly a problem.

Any base CC who arbitrarily decides to torture CAP for no reason is a bit off the rocker...

I know these are hypotheticals, but why make more out of it? Work with that CC, don't tick off the "mayor" intentionally, unless you want to be kicked out.

[Larry Mangum]

Case in point at Camp Attlerbury, it is a camp directive that reflective belts will be work between the hours of 1800 and 0700. NESA students and staff who fail to wear a belt, can and have been cited by the MP's for failure to comply.

[Thom]

a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

My understanding (admittedly I have no direct cite...) is that the Base Commander can certainly REQUEST that CAP (or any other civilians) do what he says.  If you REFUSE, then he can simply not allow you on the base at all.

So, if the Base Commander says (this seems more likely...) CAP members will NOT wear Blues Uniforms on the Base, then you have the choice to either wear something else, or not go on the base.

So, he cannot require you to do something that contravenes your organization's regs, but he can certainly keep you off his Base if you don't do what he says.

Of course, he still answers to his superiors, so when the SecAF calls him up and says "why have you banned CAP member's from your base?" he might be pressured to relent.  No one is immune to pressure from above.


I'd like some more direct cite of these powers of a U.S. Military Base Commander if someone has them.  Even if they prove my understanding is incorrect.


Thom

[Pylon]

So, if the Base Commander says (this seems more likely...) CAP members will NOT wear Blues Uniforms on the Base, then you have the choice to either wear something else, or not go on the base.

I used mandating blues on Mondays as a likely option because of the Air Force-wide policy of wearing blues on Mondays (with obvious and logical exceptions -- like people working in the maintenance shop or flying that day).  Everybody else on base wears blues on Mondays.  Therefore, it could be a logical request for a base commander to ask CAP personnel to also comply.  And I don't think it'd be an unreasonable one.

Would our regs still say we could wear BDUs or the Blazer Combo or whatever?   Yep, technically by the regs, we'd have that option.   But as some people pointed out above, even if the local installation commander doesn't have that authority, are you really going to push those limits because "you're right" ad have to always prove that you're right?

[lordmonar]

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

Mike there are two sides to this story.

One....it his base and he can throw us off anytime he wants to.....end of story.
Two....that is the extent of his authority over us....again...end of story.

Reality lies somewhere in between.

Of course we will want to follow his expectations as good neighbors and guests on his base.  We will want to work with him to make sure his desires meet up with CAP regulations.

If we cannot come up with a good working compromise then bottom line....we will have to leave the base.

Having said that....I think that it is just one of those myths that get circulated around from time to time.
Our regs specifally state no flight suits while on military transport.  This sometimes gets distorted to no flight suits at all on base.
USAF tradition says that officers don't wear ribbons on their blues shirts...this gets distroted to the "USAF will yell at us if a CAP officer wears ribbons"! (I had someone actually tell me this once).

As far as I know....I have never heard from a reliable source that any base commander has ever banned flight suits or berets on base.

If this was really a problem then I am sure that CAP-USAF would pull their approval for us to wear berets at all or mandate that we wear some other color.

I can see a lot of confusion when it comes to CAP unit being on base.  Let's take florecent belts for instance.  Most USAF bases mandates that all military personnel have to wear a reflective belt when in uniform during periods of darkness.  Cadet Timmy is walking from the gate to the meeting place in the dark in his BDUs it would not be unheard of if someone were to ask him (yell at him) where his belt was.

So....again it would be 100% okay by me if the local squadron mandated the use of belts on base in CAP uniforms.

Not in the regs....not allowed by the regs....but it is simple and easy way to make nice with the base and keep our members from getting yelled at by good intentioned but mis-informed military personnel.

This does not have to be a pissing contest...and I don't really think that it is.....I just think that it is mostly a military myth.

[Eclipse]

Mike - this would clearly be a case where the State Director would have to get involved - the USAF can mandate anything they want for their people, they also issue uniforms and pay clothing allowances, not so for CAP, where only a percentage of the membership even owns blues.

It would simply not be reasonable for a base CC to do this, however....

Its not even part of the conversation, since that's not what we're talking about here - we're talking about a base CC mandating a part of the uniform that we're not even authorized to wear.

What's next?  A base CC directing that we must wear metal insignia on our whites?  Subdued on BDUs?

How about a base CC who decides CAP people should be in ABU's?

[DakRadz]

We welcome those base CCs into our membership with full rank and rejoice at their amazing thought process.

[RiverAux]

I'm betting there is a major myth at the heart of this thread as I can't see any situation where any base commander would order CAP members to wear a beret.  If anything, the opposite is much more likely. 

And, as has been said, CAP members can only go so far to comply with their requirements before we'll have to politely tell them that we're going to have to move out.  The safety gear would be a non-issue as it would not be an unreasonable request and could easily be implemented through a wing supplement or squadron instruction.  Definetely within the scope allowed. 

[Mustang]

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

[spacecommand]

I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

Excluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

[Eclipse]

Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

This isn't "semantics" - base commanders have any number of "tenants" both civilian and military, and those tenants have their own
protocols and regulations.  A base CC can't simply give a blanket order to some other service and expect it to be carried out carte-blanche, especially when that order countermands an order from the service's actual chain of command.

Would you have some expectation that Navy Seamen assigned to an air base would start wearing berets with their cracker jacks just because a USAF base commander wanted them to?

That's not how it works.

[DakRadz]

If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen

And Seamen might do it, left to their own devices. That's what NCOs and officers are for 

Really though, I agree with what spacecommand and Eclipse said on the authorization part. Command authority only goes so far.

Safety conditions/requirements seem to have drawn the consensus that no one would argue, within reason.

[lordmonar]

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

Semantics are important.....knowing what your authority is and how to properly use it is one of the most important skills a leader needs to know.

Following that following the legal and reglatory procedures is also very important.

It also changes the way a local base commander approches a particular problem....if Col Xray at Boondoc AFB has a problem with CAP wearing berets....he needs to know that simply saying "no berets" is not the right way of doing things.

This all being academic...as I can't think of any base commander doing such a thing....it is imporatant to understand how the process works.

[lordmonar]

I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

On the basic level....he can't authorize anything.  He can set policy for his base and WE can go through our chain to get the authorisation.   It is about the chain of command. 

Excluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

The basic answere is still no....the base commander has no authority to do so.....any more then he could authorise on his own authority to force or allow Army personnel to wear ABU's.  He could suggest it to the Army's chain of command and they would authorise or forbid it.

[PHall]

I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

On the basic level....he can't authorize anything.  He can set policy for his base and WE can go through our chain to get the authorisation.   It is about the chain of command. 

Excluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

The basic answere is still no....the base commander has no authority to do so.....any more then he could authorise on his own authority to force or allow Army personnel to wear ABU's.  He could suggest it to the Army's chain of command and they would authorise or forbid it.

Pat, bottom line is that CAP is on his base at his pleasure. CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

[Short Field]

The Base Commander does not have the authority to allow CAP or other service members to wear uniforms that do not meet the standards of their own service.  The Base Commander does have the authority to mandate the wear of a required CAP uniform (the CAP basic uniform that is required of all senior members - pick your version) to conform with something like Blues Monday.  If you really feel like arguing, then you can join some of the other members of this board who complain about having to submit requests to visit the base 30 days in advance and must be on a access roster to get onto the base.

If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen

That doesn't even make sense - but hey, it does raise your posting count.

[SarDragon]

If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen

And Seamen might do it, left to their own devices. That's what NCOs and officers are for 

Really though, I agree with what spacecommand and Eclipse said on the authorization part. Command authority only goes so far.

Safety conditions/requirements seem to have drawn the consensus that no one would argue, within reason.

Back in your box, fella. Your NJROTC experience absolutely fails you this time. Don't quit your day job hoping to be a comedian.

As a Navy dude that spent three years as a tenant on an Air Base, I can tell you that the base commander had very little say in what the Navy folks did, other than the regular health and safety stuff that covered everybody on the base.

[DakRadz]

That was not my intention at all, sir. I've advised cadets on multiple occasions that posting to raise your count is idiotic and will be dealt with by a Mod or Admin.

Navy Seamen (E-1 to E-3) are not always referred to as Seamen:
There are, that I know of,
Seamen (obviously)
Firemen
Airmen
Constructionmen
I know these are actual rates. Wiki says Hospitalmen are also a variation, but you can take Wiki's word at your own choosing.
The title corresponds with what they've been assigned to.

I was simply pointing out that if assigned to an air base, the Seamen could be Airmen; not necessarily, but seems the chances would be greater in that situation. My apologies if the Navy humor was lost in translation.

^If you read the above paragraph, does the NJROTC still fail me?
(I was kidding about what Seamen might do when left to their own devices, don't hang me for that).

Also, I wouldn't mind if MIKE took the time to review every post I've ever made and reduced my count on the "fluff" ones (I'd be flattered ). I'm certain there are a few of those, I just try to avoid that now.

Now back to your originally scheduled Uniform Debate.
~~~~~~~~~~

It may sound like I'm repeating what lordmonar said, but I did make a similar point before-
Any base CC who tries to enact ridiculous rules upon CAP doesn't like someone or something to begin with. No base CC is going to up and decide CAP wears Mickey Mouse ears after 1900 everyday they meet.

If these problems ever arise, go through proper CAP channels- I'm sure they'll sort out the extents of a base CC's power and explain the ruling to you.

If a base CC wants CAP wearing UA ball caps, go talk to him/her and explain the deal. Given the amount of service this individual will obviously have, regs and red tape should not be a big shocker. And a safety issue could easily be resolved on the CAP side if the base CC is involved.

[SarDragon]

Taken to PM. This thread has enough problems without having OT distractions.