Base commander authorizing the beret for CAP.

[lordmonar]

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

This particular argument is kind of a non starter.

What it basically comes down to IMHO is that there are three basic schools of thought.

1) The Berets are okay please let us wear it school.
2) The I think berets are really cool but CAP does not deserve to be that cool or that they will screw it up so no berets school of thought.
3) I wore a beret for 20 years and I hated them...don't know why anyone would want to wear them school of thought.

The funny thing is that only the first one has any real bearing on the conversation.

No one has ever AFAIK suggest that everyone wear berets.  No one has suggested they become mandatory.  No one has ever hinted that if unit X allows their NBB graduates to wear their berets that every NBB graduate must wear theirs.  No one suggests that simply wearing a berets automatically makes someone better then anyone else.

But I see a lot of people go out of their way to insure that no one gets to wear one and I don't understand that?

If they follow the regs...and get approval....let them.  Don't use cost, protective factor, or all those other reasons to hold you back.

The only question is the "purpose" that they want the beret "special" enough to rate a beret.

[OldGuard]

Agree with the above comment


I wore one while I was in the Army (Airborne) and really dont see a problem with it.

[Eclipse]

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

Show participation in a standardized way without adding in arrogance or "difference".

[Major Carrales]

The base commander, likely, would not have this "preoccupation" with obscure CAP uniform items and, unless the base commander is is a CAP Officer or former CAP Cadet, they will likely look at CAP as a "good thing" but not "micro manage" uniform items.  In fact, even if they were CAP, I think there would be more pressing matters than berets.

Also, since the CAP beret is not standard in CAP and berets themselves convey certain things written and unwritten, I think that...unless the base commander was cajoled, or cudgled, into it by CAP members...it would never be an issue that the Colonel would even deal with.

[Eclipse]

I agree - the odds are that any base commander even commenting or noticing our uniforms would happen because we were caught "running with scissors", and he decided to make out lives difficult because of it.

[flyboy53]

Split from the soon to be locked NESA photo thread.

Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

If the Base Commander allows CAP to wear the beret, then it's legal.

How do you figure?

A random base CC who is not also a CAP member (or maybe CAP-USAF), has no authority over CAP members other than behavior and conduct while on their base.  They certainly have no authority to grant the wear of a uniform item.

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Although I've never seen a base commander do this, please know that he certainly does have that authority. Push it and you might find a nasty call made to CAP-USAF and CAP barred from a base.

One thing to remember about the blue beret. There was a lot of grief internally in the Air Force when the beret was sought by Brig. Gen. Sadler as a means to spruce up the morale of the SPs. When it was finally approved by the Air Force Uniform Board, it was already being worn by SAC Elite Guards and was formally taken from combat controllers who wore it in Vietnam. I used to get a lot of grief from an officer partner who was medically disqualified from the combat controllers. Neither SPs or combat controllers look at CAP as having completed the same level of training to earn one...myself included (and I can't even wear mine now.)

For the record, there are six combat arms branches of the Air Force who wear berets.

[Hawk200]

Although I've never seen a base commander do this, please know that he certainly does have that authority. Push it and you might find a nasty call made to CAP-USAF and CAP barred from a base.

And the circle comes around again. A base commander is going to check into CAP uniforms that he/she has an issue with. They are not going to tell the local unit not to wear something, ban them from an installation arbitrarily, or "clap them in irons." An intelligent commander is going to look into things.

If it came down to CAP wearing a beret that the base commander had an issue with, the restriction from wearing it would be communicated down through CAP channels. It would most likely happen very quickly, but it would still happen through channels. Since the wear of a beret is permitted through our own wing level, all it would probably take would be the base liaison talking to the state director.

This thread is starting to look like: "I don't like CAP personnel wearing a beret, so you'd better stop doing it, because the base commander is gonna throw your unit off the base."

For the record, there are six combat arms branches of the Air Force who wear berets.

Not exactly. There are six colors of berets worn within the Air Force: black, blue, maroon, scarlet, green, and gray. A beret does not equal combat arms.

Personnally, I don't care for berets, I don't see a need for them in CAP. Like a few others here have said: come up with a badge or a ribbon, and be done with it. If an activity already presents some type of award for it, then there is no reason for an additional uniform item that makes you different.

[lordmonar]

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

Show participation in a standardized way without adding in arrogance or "difference".

There is my point.

The beret used to identify special puproses....such as ground teams or color guard or what ever....is simply a tool, like a hammer or screw driver.  Any tool can be abused....but because someone abuses the tool is not necessarily a good reason to tell everyone not to use the tool at all.

I am not discussing the NBB and Hawk mountain issue where it is worn as a permenant badge....but at the local level where the local commander wants/needs to build up special team where "arrogance or difference" is a good thing and furthers the aims and goals of that team.

Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

[Eclipse]

Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

Within the current standardized curriculum and conservative nature of CAP, there is no place to allow for an "elite" team of anything, which is the core of the issue.

There isn't a single beret-wearing member of CAP who is allowed to participate in a single mission-related activity that every other member can't also do, and that is the problem.  So you're setting people off as "different", who by their very definition are the "same", or perhaps not even equal to, or allowed to participate in real ES.

Elite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

Because we drink from a big cup of "!AWESOME!" each morning doesn't count.

[Eclipse]

For the record, this thread...

Is not about whether berets are "good"...

Is only peripherally about whether a base commander could prohibit a respective uniform item or combination.

Is about whether a base commander could authorize or even mandate a respective uniform item for CAP (or any other service not
directly in their chain) which is otherwise not authorized.

Safety belts and ID cards are a red herring as in many cases their wear is a DOD-level mandate for all personnel on base, even civilians...

[Hawk200]

Elite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

We've got awards that cover such things, so even those aren't really a reason to authorize a "different" uniform item.

Not a big fan of Hawk Mountain, but they at least require some physical standards for their awards. Something "special" in the way of an additional uniform item should be something that the folks earning can do and have shown that they have done over and above just going to an activity.

The beret used to identify special puproses....such as ground teams or color guard or what ever....is simply a tool, like a hammer or screw driver.  Any tool can be abused....but because someone abuses the tool is not necessarily a good reason to tell everyone not to use the tool at all.

Just because a tool can be used for something, doesn't mean it should be. I can hammer things with the butt end of a screwdriver, but it doesn't make it the tool of choice, especially if I already have a hammer.

If a uniform item actually shows a legitimate benefit or indicates a "special" skill, I don't have any issues with it. Things for the sake of appearance don't really contribute to the mission. A mission will not fail because someone isn't wearing their special hat. It's just a hat. A person can wear the same one everyone else does.

[lordmonar]

Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

Within the current standardized curriculum and conservative nature of CAP, there is no place to allow for an "elite" team of anything, which is the core of the issue.

There isn't a single beret-wearing member of CAP who is allowed to participate in a single mission-related activity that every other member can't also do, and that is the problem.  So you're setting people off as "different", who by their very definition are the "same", or perhaps not even equal to, or allowed to participate in real ES.

Elite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

Because we drink from a big cup of "!AWESOME!" each morning doesn't count.

Elite.....those who go above and beyond the minimuns of training and duty.

Color guard.....they train extra and do extra duty.
Ground Teams...they train and maintain certs that are not required of everyone.

Those are just two of the most common teams that have or have requested berets in the past.

You use the tool of the beret to help foster a sense of identity in the special team.  Develope a certain level of eliteness that makes others want to join and those who are part of the team maintain the higher standards both of which promote the general CAP ideas of excellance and service.

Of course if eliteness becomes a problem then I use my leadership skills and authority to correct it as necessary up to and including removing the beret for wear (assuming that it was approved by the wing CC in the first place).

It is not rocket science....it is about using the tools provided in a way to advance the goals of the organisation.

In my squadron we use all sorts of tools like this.

My cadet officers all wear the service cap in blues.  My cadet staff all wear ties/tie tab in blues to set themselves apart from the other cadets.  In BDUs they wear a brown t-shirt instead of black.

My color guard wear the white cord and my CAC reps wear their cords.

My officers wear the rank they have achieved....these are all forms of eliteness that we use as tools to make the program work.

[Eclipse]

^ and not a single thing in your toolbox is different from what is being done nationally.  Nothing you are doing would generate an uncomfortable conversation with another wing's activity CC or mission IC.

If whatever it is you want to award for "extra" is standardized, fine.  Like the beret? Then award it for all GTMs, that way at least the
actual teams will potentially look uniform.

Attaining a GT rating is, "extra", but one state's or unit's ground team is no "better" or "different" than anyone else's, so neither should have any unique identifier as such, otherwise the inference and I would say intention, is to say that one team is better than another, with no way to discern that whatsoever.

An interesting paradigm here is that those who really are "elite" rarely care to be recognized as such, knowing the hollow ring of that term, while inferring elite status where none exists is an excellent way to generate arrogance and attitude issues, and CAP commanders see that all the time, with this stuff.

[JK657]

So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

[Hawk200]

So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

I'm getting a kick out of how people are assuming that a base commander is stupid.

If a commander had an issue, he/she would follow channels. Which means that he/she would have their base liaison contact a state director, and have it put out that he didn't like CAP personnel wearing blue berets on his installation. Since it is not a standardized headgear for Civil Air Patrol, it's not really an issue. It would probably be communicated to the squadron commander within a day or two of the liaison talking to the state director.

In which case CAP personnel would not wear an "alternate" headgear, they would wear standard headgear.

[afgeo4]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

[afgeo4]

So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

1. SF troops can and do wear organizational baseball caps (in BDUs)
2. SF troops can and do wear BDU/Patrol Caps.
3. SF troops can and do wear helmets.

Should we ban CAP from wearing any of that? Security Forces can distinguish themselves just fine with them fine looking badges, pistol belts and arm bands (deployed.) If you're an airman on a base and you're looking for a beret when in need, you're making a BIG mistake. You're much more likely to flag down a soldier than a Sercurity Policeman. If you need assistance, call the SF Squadron or ask the guy/gal with the weapon for assistance. Also, given that SF airmen are usually found either in the gate shack or in a patrol car...

[Patterson]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

And again, we have a poster not reading previous posts.  Please go back to page three in this thread and look at what I referenced.  Both 39-1 and an AFI.  Both are what we (as CAP) operate off of. 

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret. 

[afgeo4]

a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

Agree 100%

[afgeo4]

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

And again, we have a poster not reading previous posts.  Please go back to page three in this thread and look at what I referenced.  Both 39-1 and an AFI.  Both are what we (as CAP) operate off of. 

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Right... well actually while the installation commander can kick us, the organization, off, he may end up having explain it to his superiors if the matter was pressed through the CAP-USAF chain of command. That's especially true of AETC bases since CAP-USAF is under that MAJCOM. Every installation commander has his/her boss who may disagree with the decision.

Reflective belts are mandated by Army regulations while exercising outdoors between sunset and sunrise. Reflective belts are not mandated by USAF regulations as their PT uniforms are reflective by design. USAF regs state specifically that reflective equipment need not be worn while wearing the USAF Physical Fitness uniform. Local commanders may issue additional safety regulations for their posts as they see fit regarding reflective equipment. However, no CAP regulation talks about reflective belts. No regulations, pamphlet or supplement authorizes their wear, so they are not part of a uniform. That's something I would actually change if I was a Safety Officer. I would require that all members wear reflective equipment between sunset and sunrise while performing CAP functions, in uniform or out.