CAP Talk

I've seen both sides of the argument here and as far as I've read, the decision is up to the CC, and it can only be worn to and from with necessary stops in-between.

IMO, if you're aircrew and you're active I think it should be allowed.  Everybody says it's  8)

But it is hard to maintain a pressed and clean appearance in it, so i understand the argument that it should be banned from the weekly meeting. 

Tough one -- I think it is just as appropriate as a BDU for a meeting -- one is the working uniform for ground teams and the other is the working uniform for the aircrews. I prefer it to the golf shirts which are coming to dominate my squadron.   

Quote from: RiverAux on August 14, 2007, 10:18:47 PM
Tough one -- I think it is just as appropriate as a BDU for a meeting -- one is the working uniform for ground teams and the other is the working uniform for the aircrews. I prefer it to the golf shirts which are coming to dominate my squadron.   

That's kinda what I was thinking.

Against, unless you will be flying to/from or during meeting as part of duties.  Not appropriate for just hanging out in because you are flight crew.

In my opinion, flightsuits are for flying activities, not for meetings.  However comma, if you aer planning on flying before or after your meeting, then by all means wear the suit.

While I am on this topic, I believe that the Golf Shirt is not an appropriate meeting uniform either.

If it's so appropriate, why does 39-1 limit its wear to flying activities?

It was allowed in my SQD for aircrews for weekly meetings if they were doing anything flight related.  Since we had a number of aircrew members, we broke the membership up into ground team and flight "team" sections.  Flight section was led by an air ops officer and ground section was led by a ground ops officer.  WE all got together at the beginning and end of the meeting but rarely saw the groups together any other time.  No reason for aircrews not to wear the duty uniform that is prescribed, and everyone else on the ground to wear BDU's.  Not saying it was right, but was military and practical.

Where in 39-1 does it prohibit wearing flight suits at meetings or alternatively specifically only allow them to be worn while flying?  Not being sarcastic, just looking for a citation.

As long as 39-1 2.1(b) says

Quotec. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.

and the BDU is worn by cadets at 3/4 of their meetings, I think it would be hard to say that flight suits couldn't be worn.  After all, cadets aren't doing anything at most meetings that couldn't be done in service uniforms. 

I know the regulation says its only for flying.  But when you're a pilot, being a cool pilot trumps regulations.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 15, 2007, 12:05:46 AM
I know the regulation says its only for flying.  But when you're a pilot, being a cool pilot trumps regulations.

^^^Darn good Point. when I used to wear my Blie Flight suit, i was mistaken for the State Patrol's Pilots.......

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 15, 2007, 12:05:46 AM
I know the regulation says its only for flying.  But when you're a pilot, being a cool pilot trumps regulations.

And the USAF lets their aircrew where the bag even if they're not going anywhere near an aircraft.

Not always. See AFI 36-2903.

I don't have a copy of the AFI, but there are no USAF a/c on Fort Sill and ALL of the USAF field grades wears bags everyday.  Since they are the official, hand picked, USAF reps to the land component fire support school, I must believe that they aren't all violating the applicable regs.

Funny, I didn't see any a/c at the five sided zoo on the Potomac two weeks ago either - but there sure were a lot of field grades and GO's running around in bags.  Is that AFI enforced?

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 15, 2007, 12:05:46 AM
I know the regulation says its only for flying.  But when you're a pilot, being a cool pilot trumps regulations.

Kach, I don't even know you but I like you.   I'd love to be in a squadron with you...

On topic...

I've be at squadrons where they meet at the airfield and flying was practically a part of nightly meetings.  We'd often offer O-Flights prior to meetings, before it got dark.  At that same squadron, even when flying wasn't taking place, it always had potential to.  So if there is a possibility for a mission, and you're aircrew, why not?  It's happened more than once.  It's kind of like being a high speed GTM and not having your BDUs and gear in your car on a blues night.

I've also met at a squadron that wasn't anywhere close to an airfield or our planes.  Those guys wanted to wear flight suits and I said no.  If they were teaching AE and were an aircrew member, cool.  If not, uniform of the day.  Then I had the tough guys that said, if I can't wear my flightsuit I'll show up in civvies.  I said, no, you won't show up at all.  

Another deal is when the seniors (aircrew) meet seperately from the cadets.  They can wear what they want, but I'd rather them be in flight suits than shorts.

I really would like to see the exact citation that says flight suits may only be worn while flying....  again, not saying it doesn't exist - just haven't found it myself.

"Flying activities" to me includes "Thinking about flying."

What opinions do we have regarding cadets wearing flight suits on orientation flighs and/or on aerospace education nights?  Does it make a difference if they have any type of CAP recognized wings??     

Depends how you define Flight Crews Only.

Quote from: capchiro on August 15, 2007, 01:04:46 AM
What opinions do we have regarding cadets wearing flight suits on orientation flighs and/or on aerospace education nights?  Does it make a difference if they have any type of CAP recognized wings??     

As a cadet, I had a flight suit that I got for free from my neighbor, a Navy pilot.  Personally, I don't have a problem with cadets wearing a flight suit on o-flights, but that's it.  The last thing I want is some parent buying their cadet a $100 flight suit, or even worse, a $25 flight suit that defeats the purpose.

As for squadron meetings, I'm against cadets wearing flight suits.  It's no different than a cadet wearing a beret to a squadron meeting, it ain't the same.  Not to mention, most cadets wouldn't qualify to be "air crew", until they're 18.

If a cadet had enough on the ball to earn a pilot's license and get his wings while still a cadet and less than 18, I say he should be allowed to join the "Cool pilot's club."  Even with his own coffee cup with the squadron logo and a sexy nickname.

Midway Six has it right.....They have a Pilot naming Ceremony.....

Quote from: BillB on August 14, 2007, 10:27:20 PM
If it's so appropriate, why does 39-1 limit its wear to flying activities?

Cite reference, please.

I just rolled back and forth through CAPM 39-1 a couple of times and I can see no reference concerning flight suit wear other than the stuff about not on AF flights and

QuoteFlight Crew members wearing the green Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper standards of neatness, cleanliness, and military image.

Your meeting location is your "duty performance site."  This is like the AF - I work in an office where the pilots and missileers wear bags all the time, even though the chance of flash fires in the cube farm is low.

Granted, I may have missed the reference - the blood flowing from my eyes did make it hard to see sometimes. ;^)

You know, if the flightsuits aren't authorized at meetings, then the blue jumpsuit shouldn't be either. It looks like one to the unitiated.

BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

This has been pretty interesting.  Some like it and some don't but no one has posted a reg against it.  Looks like it is ok to authorize.

CAP offers a variety of costumes with many flavors to choose from: Aux on, Civil Air Patrol, Inc., and "oops, I forgot to shave!"

With so many options to choose from, members should have no problem wearing the right one for the right purpose.

When I've visited units as a Group and as a Wing Staff Member, I usually find out what the locals are wearing, and blend in.

. . . . .but I've never worn the "bag" to a meeting.

The only thing I can come up with is 39-1 Table 1.1 Note 1:

QuoteNOTES:
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

which would allow local "bans" on flight suits at meetings if the commander wanted. 

There is a fundamental factor here that has been lost somewhere in transition.  Uniform... (everybody absorb and think about that word)...  Ok moving on showing up to a meeting in anything other than the UOD is unacceptable.  There are alternatives to all AF style uniforms so there is not excuse that "I don't meet regs".  There are obvious exceptions If you parked your Airplane outside the meeting hanger ok wear your zoom bag,  If you are teaching a uniform class and it is pertinant to show the bag wear it.  Other than that UOD...Period

We require the Flight suit when flying Microsoft Flight Simulator, It goes along wih the realism. If the pilot crashes I have a can of Hair spray and a Lighter, best darn crash simulation in CAP.


PS: I can also sniff out those FAKE cotton Bags.

Captain Wingnut

Well I am off on a 4 day archer mission, and will be working the landing of the Space shuttle next week for CAP. You all eat your hearts out >:D

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

Pineda has done many things that don't make sense. For some reason he wears wings, yet is not a rated CAP pilot or Mission Observer. Check his ops quals.

Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2007, 05:32:00 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

Pineda has done many things that don't make sense. For some reason he wears wings, yet is not a rated CAP pilot or Mission Observer. Check his ops quals.

I heard...

QuoteOne doesn't have to currently be rated to wear the wings, only have done so in the past.  Thus, if I earned a Mission Observer Rating in 1998, and lapsed those quals.  I can wear the wings.

Does one have to remove badges from your uniform should you lapse?  Once a "WINGED" CAP Pilot...always one?

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 05:56:19 AM
I heard...

QuoteOne doesn't have to currently be rated to wear the wings, only have done so in the past.  Thus, if I earned a Mission Observer Rating in 1998, and lapsed those quals.  I can wear the wings.

Does one have to remove badges from your uniform should you lapse?  Once a "WINGED" CAP Pilot...always one?

Yeah, that's my understanding as well.  I haven't flown a mission, training or real, in like 5 years.  No interest in doing so either.  Just not my cup of tea.  But I still have a set of observer wings sewn to a set of BDUs.  To me, it's no different than an AF pilot turned desk jockey.  Once you've earned them you always wear them.  I see no harm in it.

Quote from: Stonewall on August 15, 2007, 06:06:22 AM
Yeah, that's my understanding as well.  I haven't flown a mission, training or real, in like 5 years.  No interest in doing so either.  Just not my cup of tea.  But I still have a set of observer wings sewn to a set of BDUs.  To me, it's no different than an AF pilot turned desk jockey.  Once you've earned them you always wear them.  I see no harm in it.

I was looking in regs to support this, however, I could not find it.  MIKE, a little help please.  :D

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 06:11:06 AM

Quote from: Stonewall on August 15, 2007, 06:06:22 AM
Yeah, that's my understanding as well.  I haven't flown a mission, training or real, in like 5 years.  No interest in doing so either.  Just not my cup of tea.  But I still have a set of observer wings sewn to a set of BDUs.  To me, it's no different than an AF pilot turned desk jockey.  Once you've earned them you always wear them.  I see no harm in it.

I was looking in regs to support this, however, I could not find it.  MIKE, a little help please.  :D

I just looked at 35-6 and 39-1.  There are only regulations what is required to earn/wear the badge and how to wear it.  It says nothing about removing badges if your qualifications expire.

Quote from: Stonewall on August 15, 2007, 06:21:35 AM
I just looked at 35-6 and 39-1.  There are only regulations what is required to earn/wear the badge and how to wear it.  It says nothing about removing badges if your qualifications expire.

The phrasing of the Senior and Master ratings seem to be phrased as...

QuoteHave been an active flying CAP mission observer for 3 years (this service need not be continuous).

The "have been," would cover that.  But, that is moot since everyone knows CAPM 39-1 is the "sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within."  RESISTANCE IS FUTILE...oops, I mean... "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY"

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
You know, if the flightsuits aren't authorized at meetings, then the blue jumpsuit shouldn't be either. It looks like one to the unitiated.

BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

Blue and Green flight suits are PPE. The Blue jumpsuit is a utility uniform.

Quote from: mfd1506 on August 15, 2007, 04:32:25 AM
There is a fundamental factor here that has been lost somewhere in transition.  Uniform... (everybody absorb and think about that word)...  Ok moving on showing up to a meeting in anything other than the UOD is unacceptable.  There are alternatives to all AF style uniforms so there is not excuse that "I don't meet regs".  There are obvious exceptions If you parked your Airplane outside the meeting hanger ok wear your zoom bag,  If you are teaching a uniform class and it is pertinant to show the bag wear it.  Other than that UOD...Period

Not sure what your point is.  You're assuming that squadrons HAVE actually designated a uniform of the day for meetings and that it ISN"T the flight suit. 

From what I've seen in past threads it seems that most senior squadrons and senior sides of most composite squadrons don't actually designate an official UOD. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 05:56:19 AM

Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2007, 05:32:00 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

Pineda has done many things that don't make sense. For some reason he wears wings, yet is not a rated CAP pilot or Mission Observer. Check his ops quals.

I heard...

QuoteOne doesn't have to currently be rated to wear the wings, only have done so in the past.  Thus, if I earned a Mission Observer Rating in 1998, and lapsed those quals.  I can wear the wings.

Does one have to remove badges from your uniform should you lapse?  Once a "WINGED" CAP Pilot...always one?

Yes.

Once you are awarded wings, it is a permanent award.  We have folk who lost their medicals years ago, but are still entitled to wear pilot wings.

Otherwise, you would have to tear the wings off your BDU's annually if you missed the 1-year date of your form 5 check, and sew them back on a week later when you get it in.

Wings are a permanent award.  Even if you never fly again after your first form 5. 

Quote from: JThemann on August 15, 2007, 11:26:39 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
You know, if the flightsuits aren't authorized at meetings, then the blue jumpsuit shouldn't be either. It looks like one to the unitiated.

BTW, how often was Pineda seen wearing a flightsuit when he wasn't actually flying? He sponsored the restriction, didn't he?

Blue and Green flight suits are PPE. The Blue jumpsuit is a utility uniform.

CAP doesn't define anything as PPE, flightsuits are categorized as uniforms, that's all. And, utility uniform or not, it looks almost exactly like the flightsuit to many who don't know, even authorizing the same insignia.

We don't really have a legitimate use for one anyway, not with other uniforms available that accomplish the same purpose.

Virtually everywhere I've been, flight suits have been worn right along BDUs as daily garrison wear.

Of course, I've also seen USAF commanders mandate BDUs for certain occasions (like ceremonies).

I think CAP needs to update its policy to match what USAF is doing these days.  If folks are wearing BDUS AND the activity doesn't involve fieldwork AND you are rated aircrew AND it's not some special BDU only occasion...flight suits should be fine.

I've found that seniors in flight suits (green or blue) is much more of a recruiting draw to potential aviation minded seniors than any other uniform.

Quote from: Dragoon on August 15, 2007, 06:50:42 PM
I think CAP needs to update its policy to match what USAF is doing these days.  If folks are wearing BDUS AND the activity doesn't involve fieldwork AND you are rated aircrew AND it's not some special BDU only occasion...flight suits should be fine.

I don't see a problem with wearing them in lieu of a BDU. However, after giving it some thought, I don't think it would be really appropriate to wear it on military airlifts or military orientation flights. Biggest reason is to avoid confusion with aircrew. Some of the people that have ridden along don't realize the differences.

Quote from: Dragoon on August 15, 2007, 06:50:42 PM
I've found that seniors in flight suits (green or blue) is much more of a recruiting draw to potential aviation minded seniors than any other uniform.

I'll buy that.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 03:00:31 AM

Quote from: Dragoon on August 15, 2007, 06:50:42 PM
I think CAP needs to update its policy to match what USAF is doing these days.  If folks are wearing BDUS AND the activity doesn't involve fieldwork AND you are rated aircrew AND it's not some special BDU only occasion...flight suits should be fine.

I don't see a problem with wearing them in lieu of a BDU. However, after giving it some thought, I don't think it would be really appropriate to wear it on military airlifts or military orientation flights. Biggest reason is to avoid confusion with aircrew. Some of the people that have ridden along don't realize the differences.

The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

Wouldn't want that Cessna 172 pilot taking over the controls of the C-5 and thinking he can fly it   :angel:   >:D

Quote from: JC004 on August 16, 2007, 03:44:40 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

Wouldn't want that Cessna 172 pilot taking over the controls of the C-5 and thinking he can fly it   :angel:   >:D

Or more along the lines of "In the event of an emergency, please turn to the nearest zipper suited sun god for further instructions." ;D

As far as wearing them to meetings, BTDT, don't mind it either way.

Quote from: Slim on August 16, 2007, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: JC004 on August 16, 2007, 03:44:40 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

Wouldn't want that Cessna 172 pilot taking over the controls of the C-5 and thinking he can fly it   :angel:   >:D

Or more along the lines of "In the event of an emergency, please turn to the nearest zipper suited sun god for further instructions." ;D

As far as wearing them to meetings, BTDT, don't mind it either way.

Shh.  Let me have my little fantasies.   :P

Quote from: Slim on August 16, 2007, 04:04:55 AMAs far as wearing them to meetings, BTDT, don't mind it either way.

You had me at "hello"... you had me at "hello.."

Quote from: Stonewall on August 16, 2007, 04:47:53 AM

Quote from: Slim on August 16, 2007, 04:04:55 AMAs far as wearing them to meetings, BTDT, don't mind it either way.

You had me at "hello"... you had me at "hello.."

Ok, dude.....no more pain meds for you.  :P

Anyone quoting "Jerry McGuire" and/or Kenny Chesney songs can't handle it.  What did you do, anyway?  L1 compression fractures don't just happen.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 03:28:23 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 03:00:31 AM

Quote from: Dragoon on August 15, 2007, 06:50:42 PM
I think CAP needs to update its policy to match what USAF is doing these days.  If folks are wearing BDUS AND the activity doesn't involve fieldwork AND you are rated aircrew AND it's not some special BDU only occasion...flight suits should be fine.

I don't see a problem with wearing them in lieu of a BDU. However, after giving it some thought, I don't think it would be really appropriate to wear it on military airlifts or military orientation flights. Biggest reason is to avoid confusion with aircrew. Some of the people that have ridden along don't realize the differences.

The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

USAF pilots flying as pax have aircrew training. They can actually assist in the event of an emergency. Even an F-16 pilot has more of a clue. CAP personnel have not received that kind of training in the course of their normal duties. BDU's are fine, they don't need a flightsuit.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 05:55:16 AMUSAF pilots flying as pax have aircrew training. They can actually assist in the event of an emergency. Even an F-16 pilot has more of a clue. CAP personnel have not received that kind of training in the course of their normal duties. BDU's are fine, they don't need a flightsuit.

No justification enough.  Also remember that missile crews were flight suits too.  And they can wear them while they are passengers.  And they have no more training in air crew emergencies than your average CAP personnel.

The no Flight Suits on USAF aircraft is just pilots protecting their own.  It is the same reason why CAP still can't wear the brown A-2.  It is the same reason why non CEA (Career Enlisted Aviators) can't wear flight suits as their duty uniform....even though they fly in an aircraft as part of their duties (Such as the AWAC and NEACP maintenance guys).

It has nothing....I say again....nothing to do with reducing confusion and/or identifying who can or cannot help in an emergency.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 06:09:42 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 05:55:16 AMUSAF pilots flying as pax have aircrew training. They can actually assist in the event of an emergency. Even an F-16 pilot has more of a clue. CAP personnel have not received that kind of training in the course of their normal duties. BDU's are fine, they don't need a flightsuit.

No justification enough.  Also remember that missile crews were flight suits too.  And they can wear them while they are passengers.  And they have no more training in air crew emergencies than your average CAP personnel.

The no Flight Suits on USAF aircraft is just pilots protecting their own.  It is the same reason why CAP still can't wear the brown A-2.  It is the same reason why non CEA (Career Enlisted Aviators) can't wear flight suits as their duty uniform....even though they fly in an aircraft as part of their duties (Such as the AWAC and NEACP maintenance guys).

It has nothing....I say again....nothing to do with reducing confusion and/or identifying who can or cannot help in an emergency.

OK, I'm not going to argue from that point, you've made up your mind.

However, you can explain to me why you think that CAP members on military aircraft need to wear a flightsuit. I'm not seeing any reason why they have to. We have our own place for it. What's wrong with BDU's?

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 06:35:22 AMHowever, you can explain to me why you think that CAP members on military aircraft need to wear a flightsuit. I'm not seeing any reason why they have to. We have our own place for it. What's wrong with BDU's?

Oops...you got me all wrong...I don't think we need to or even should wear flight suits or BDUs on military airlift.  We should wear blues.  I was just pointing out that the USAF's reasons for not allowing us to wear flight suits has nothing to do with being able to help out in an emergency.

The word uniform means everyone wears the same thing. If the uniform of the day is CAP blue it means everyone wears the CAP blue uniform (as long as they meet the height/weight specs). The flight suits should only be worn when engaged in flying. I had a habit when assigned to CENTCOM of asking officers in flight suits "How was your flight" Not one had flown because there are no aircraft assigned to the HQ. Almost got an Art 15, because an O-6 decided I was being disrespectful. lickily I worked for a BG who had writen the uniform regs for CENTCOM and was able to point out that flights suits were not authorized.

The lack of a UOD makes the whole point kinda moot. When you have greys and polos, BDU's, BBDU's, and White Aviators at the same meeting, why not let the Flight Suit guy have his uniform too. Fact is, I'll be wearing my bag tonight, just because I've already put 40 hours in this week and haven't had time to press a BDU.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 06:42:33 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 06:35:22 AMHowever, you can explain to me why you think that CAP members on military aircraft need to wear a flightsuit. I'm not seeing any reason why they have to. We have our own place for it. What's wrong with BDU's?

Oops...you got me all wrong...I don't think we need to or even should wear flight suits or BDUs on military airlift.  We should wear blues.  I was just pointing out that the USAF's reasons for not allowing us to wear flight suits has nothing to do with being able to help out in an emergency.

Blues?  You do realize how greasy military aircraft are, right?   They're kept very clean, but there's grease everywhere.

Quote from: Slim on August 16, 2007, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: JC004 on August 16, 2007, 03:44:40 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
The regulations already forbid you to wear CAP flight suits when on military flights and O-rides.  However.....when USAF pilots fly as paxs....they wear flight suits and there is no confusion.

Wouldn't want that Cessna 172 pilot taking over the controls of the C-5 and thinking he can fly it   :angel:   >:D

Or more along the lines of "In the event of an emergency, please turn to the nearest zipper suited sun god for further instructions." ;D

As far as wearing them to meetings, BTDT, don't mind it either way.

You don't want Air Force people becoming confused and thinking that they have to obey the orders of a CAP pilot in an emergency, you know.

CAP Officer:  Sergeant, the airplane is on fire!  Get out and run!

AF Sergeant:  You can't tell me what to do, you're only a CAP guy.

CAP Officer:  You're right. Good bye.

AF Sergeant:  AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 06:09:42 AM
The no Flight Suits on USAF aircraft is just pilots protecting their own.  It is the same reason why CAP still can't wear the brown A-2. 

Wow....figuring CAP guys were wearing the brown jacket in WW2, that was some years before the AF existed right?  So in reality, we should be allowed to wear something that we wore first!  Not that I care......  Heck, we are wearing an Army Jacket, AF bling on the TPU......??

Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2007, 06:42:33 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 16, 2007, 06:35:22 AMHowever, you can explain to me why you think that CAP members on military aircraft need to wear a flightsuit. I'm not seeing any reason why they have to. We have our own place for it. What's wrong with BDU's?

Oops...you got me all wrong...I don't think we need to or even should wear flight suits or BDUs on military airlift.  We should wear blues.  I was just pointing out that the USAF's reasons for not allowing us to wear flight suits has nothing to do with being able to help out in an emergency.

My apologies, I was under the impression that you felt we should be wearing them on those flights. Personally, I don't have a problem with flightsuits being worn at the squadron or CAP activities, it's a perk of being aircrew. Aircrew quals take time, some study and dedication to achieve. But it's not necessary for those kind of activities. BDU's are fine.

Quote from: Psicorp on August 16, 2007, 12:47:17 PM
Blues?  You do realize how greasy military aircraft are, right?   They're kept very clean, but there's grease everywhere.

This is the primary reasons I feel BDU's should be worn. AMC flights in past years didn't require a uniform, no reason to stick us in blues arbitrarily. I don't care to wear a uniform where it could potentially be damaged beyond serviceability, and I'm really picky about the serviceability of my blues. Considering how many times I've gotten grime on my uniform in a helicopter, I wouldn't want to wear anything close to a "dress" unifom. Not to mention, how "fresh" are you going to be after an airlift flight? I never felt that I looked "meeting worthy" after spending a few hours in a C-130. It's stupid to be wearing a "proper uniform for the activity" if you look like crap in it due to your mode of travel.

BDU's are designed to "get dirty in", and there is also the fact that you can tell your own if there is actually an incident. If there is any kind of incident, our folks would probably be the only ones in BDU's (or equivalent), so it's easy to account for them. Which is another reason why we should have distinctive insignia (although professional) on our uniforms.

Lots of good viewpoints on the subject.  The points I gathered:

1.  The decision rests with the CC for aircrew rated personnel.
2.  While some consider the BDU (BBDU) the only "working" uniform, others feel that the flight suit is just as durable and made to get just as dirty, even if not flying.
3.  Military aviators wear the flight suit as their uniform of the day almost all the time.
4.  While some wanted to strictly adhere to the UOD as prescribed, there are many variants as it is so one more wouldn't matter much.

I like the idea of it as a uniform option during non-blues/whites days.

I've worn a flight suit to two CAP meetings and both times the meeting was right after a flight.  Our squadron is based on an airport, so we have a lot of pilots.  Our policy has always been that if you're on the flying schedule, you can wear your flight suit.  I've been given direct permission by the squadron commander before.  It's usually not a big deal, though, because the rest of the cadets are wearing BDUs, so there's not a huge contrast.

What irks me is this one senior member (that has a cadet programs role) that wears his flight suit incorrectly all the time.  He has an aerospace education badge above his name patch and I can't figure out how to tactfully ask him to remove it.  Don't worry, I know what you're thinking.  I'm not so petty that this badge affects our working relationship, though.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I didn't spend a whole lot of money on my flight suit, just a few dollars for patches and velcro thanks to Capt Kieloch. :)

Quote from: Jolt on August 17, 2007, 03:15:00 AMHe has an aerospace education badge above his name patch and I can't figure out how to tactfully ask him to remove it.  Don't worry, I know what you're thinking.  I'm not so petty that this badge affects our working relationship, though.

Tell him to visit CAP Talk, we'll be glad to explain it to him.   >:D :angel: :o 8)

Well the question I ask is what if a cadet that's working toward their private wears their flight suit just as much as most aircrews to non flight operations like meetings. 

Quote from: CASH172 on August 17, 2007, 03:22:02 AM
Well the question I ask is what if a cadet that's working toward their private wears their flight suit just as much as most aircrews to non flight operations like meetings. 

I'm very rarely seen in my flight suit.  I really do just wear it while flying and just after landing before a meeting (Just twice in about 5-6 months).  If cadets are wearing their flight suits to meetings on a regular basis, then they probably need a hug or something because they're desperate for attention.

Quote from: CASH172 on August 17, 2007, 03:22:02 AM
Well the question I ask is what if a cadet that's working toward their private wears their flight suit just as much as most aircrews to non flight operations like meetings. 

Cadets, moreso than seniors, in fact, almost exclusively, should be in the uniform of the day.  I support the cadet working on his pilots license, but that's no excuse to wear a filght suit in lieu of the UOD.

Some squadrons in an effort to help build enthusiam about AE, allow their cadets with CAP approved aeronautical ratings and seniors with them to wear their flight suits during AE nights - it builds some discussion between the zoomers and non zoomers from what I've seen.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 17, 2007, 12:11:15 PM
it builds some discussion between the zoomers and non zoomers from what I've seen.

OR it builds some tension/distraction/competition between zoomers and non zoomers. 

^ competition

not always a bad thing (good compeition, team environment) - many times what keeps cadets progressing.  Heaven forbid if we get members trying to increase their qualifications, wouldn't that be horrible? 

I guess it never dawned on me to ask but...

What's the big deal? Again, if we aren't "Uniformed" to begin with, why not wear a flight suit?

The uniform, just like a football or baseball uniform helps to instill that sense of team in those wearing it. It's just one piece of the pie, but a piece none the less.  While it's true that you are better off having people in some uniform that no uniform, but if they have the UOD then they should be in it.  Make your acceptable substitute for the OUD a full set of dress blues and I doubt many people will not wear the UOD. 

I'm a big fan of "uniform of the day."  Made lots of posts elsewhere on getting folks to feel like members of a team.

That said, we have to remember that not everyone in CAP even HAS a uniform.  And very few have all, or even close to all the uniforms.

I would never ever mix flight suits with service dress.  That would be wrong and silly.  And the golf shirt just needs to die.

And cadets need to dress alike most of the time- it's part of their military program.  We don't need any adolescent "I'm cooler than you because my Mom and Dad could afford flight lessons." 

But suppose you wanted your squadron "uniform of the day" to be BDUs.  Are you going to require seniors to buy BDUs? What about your pilots who have no need for that uniform?  Sure, you could make 'em (39-1 allows it), but is it really worth their money?   Wouldn't it make more sense to have them invest in the suit they will wear when doing their CAP job? 

Most USAF units are operating in a mix of BDUs and nomex.  This includes the Air Staff at the Pentagon.  The two suits blend pretty well, at least everyone is basically green.  If CAP did this, it would look...pretty air force-y.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

Now, cadets need to dress as alike as possible most of the time- it's part of their military program. 

(As an aside, if I ran CAP, the mandatory uniforms woudn't be service dress, it would be BDUs and flight suits.  That's the clothes when we're doing most of the important stuff.)

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
And cadets need to dress alike most of the time- it's part of their military program.  We don't need any adolescent "I'm cooler than you because my Mom and Dad could afford flight lessons." 

Yeah, isn't it terrible...

Real life story...

My previous squadron was in an area where the AFA was really active and had money to spend.  So, they decided that they were going to award 2 solo scholarships to our squadron each year.  Criteria for the scholarship was left to us.

So, for 3 years we selected 2 cadets that were over achievers and the AFA paid for them to solo (up to 14 hours).  As a way to recognize those cadets the Squadron CC set a policy that on AE nights, those cadets could wear their flight suits.

Guess what, there was no animosity between the cadets, no bickering or demeaning or "I'm cooler" crap.  All that came of it was discussions about soloing, their experiences, what they did to earn the scholarships and some guidance and mentoring on what the other cadets can do to help their chances of getting one.

We always hear about cadets joining to "fly."  New cadets associate flying with flightsuits, so why not get some flightsuits visible so those cadets know who to talk to about things like that?

In your situation, it sounds like a good thing

1.  You did it only on  AE night.  Makes sense.

2.  Your zipper suited sun gods were also your best cadets (I'm assuming that's how your scholarship selection process worked).


In this way you avoided the underachieving cadet airman with rich parents who flaunts his superiority over his way more capable but financially challenged superior. (seen it)

^congrats on your salty&seasoned ;)

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 07:50:55 PMIn this way you avoided the underachieving cadet airman with rich parents who flaunts his superiority over his way more capable but financially challenged superior. (seen it)

All three of the cadets in my squadron that ever wear flight suits are cadet officers.  Two of us are Earhart cadets and all of us have been in the "top 3" (C/CC, C/XO, C/CD).  We all have some kind of wings (solo and cadet pilot) and our cadet pilot just started at the Naval Academy this summer.

Again, we rarely ever wear our flight suits.  I don't even wear my wings on my BDU.

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
Most USAF units are operating in a mix of BDUs and nomex.  This includes the Air Staff at the Pentagon.  The two suits blend pretty well, at least everyone is basically green.  If CAP did this, it would look...pretty air force-y.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

This pretty much describes my composite squadron.  We permit qualifying cadets (18 or older) who are actively engaged in CAP air crew training to wear the green CAP flight suit in lieu of BDUs on meeting nights where the BDU is the official UOD.  All patches and insignia must be correct and per regs- same as if the cadet were in BDUs. Seeing these older cadet officers in flight suits does seem to help keep the interest and focus of the junior cadets on "Air Power!" instead of Hoo-ah!   ;)

Quote from: Jolt on August 17, 2007, 08:15:13 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 07:50:55 PMIn this way you avoided the underachieving cadet airman with rich parents who flaunts his superiority over his way more capable but financially challenged superior. (seen it)

All three of the cadets in my squadron that ever wear flight suits are cadet officers.  Two of us are Earhart cadets and all of us have been in the "top 3" (C/CC, C/XO, C/CD).  We all have some kind of wings (solo and cadet pilot) and our cadet pilot just started at the Naval Academy this summer.

Again, we rarely ever wear our flight suits.  I don't even wear my wings on my BDU.

So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
I'm a big fan of "uniform of the day."  Made lots of posts elsewhere on getting folks to feel like members of a team.

That said, we have to remember that not everyone in CAP even HAS a uniform.  And very few have all, or even close to all the uniforms.

I would never ever mix flight suits with service dress.  That would be wrong and silly.  And the golf shirt just needs to die.

And cadets need to dress alike most of the time- it's part of their military program.  We don't need any adolescent "I'm cooler than you because my Mom and Dad could afford flight lessons." 

But suppose you wanted your squadron "uniform of the day" to be BDUs.  Are you going to require seniors to buy BDUs? What about your pilots who have no need for that uniform?  Sure, you could make 'em (39-1 allows it), but is it really worth their money?   Wouldn't it make more sense to have them invest in the suit they will wear when doing their CAP job? 

Most USAF units are operating in a mix of BDUs and nomex.  This includes the Air Staff at the Pentagon.  The two suits blend pretty well, at least everyone is basically green.  If CAP did this, it would look...pretty air force-y.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

Now, cadets need to dress as alike as possible most of the time- it's part of their military program. 

(As an aside, if I ran CAP, the mandatory uniforms woudn't be service dress, it would be BDUs and flight suits.  That's the clothes when we're doing most of the important stuff.)

What important stuff do we do in BDUs? I thought that ES was completely optional?

CAP should forcus on Blue stuff, Aerospace education and the Cadet Program, way more then ES. Honestly, I think that some units obession with ES is the worst thing for the program. In my area, we have almost no missions what so ever. So we teach cadets such ES skills as 'Don't worry about your uniform, it's an emergency!' and 'Don't worry about rank, it's an emergency!'

I would honestly love to seperate the Cadet Program from the rest of the CAP junk.

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:21:19 PMSo you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

I'm not required to wear my solo wings until you can find me a reg cite (I just did a quick look at M39-1 and R35-6). :)

Just because you've earned a qualification doesn't mean you're required to wear it.  Except for ribbons where there is a minimum, I believe.

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 17, 2007, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 17, 2007, 12:11:15 PM
it builds some discussion between the zoomers and non zoomers from what I've seen.

OR it builds some tension/distraction/competition between zoomers and non zoomers. 

Tension would come from people who could better direct their energy towards working on an aeronautical rating and has no place in the meeting.

Distraction might come at first until it becomes a regular sight.

Competition is never a bad thing.

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

The Air Force requires aeronautical ratings to be worn. Civil Air Patrol has no equivalent policy. Besides, if you require it, you have to issue it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 17, 2007, 10:46:31 PM

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

The Air Force requires aeronautical ratings to be worn. Civil Air Patrol has no equivalent policy. Besides, if you require it, you have to issue it.

So I can sell all this grade insignia back to Vanguard, secure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 18, 2007, 05:53:19 AMsecure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

:D

Quote from: Mike M on August 16, 2007, 09:21:35 AM
The word uniform means everyone wears the same thing. If the uniform of the day is CAP blue it means everyone wears the CAP blue uniform (as long as they meet the height/weight specs). The flight suits should only be worn when engaged in flying. I had a habit when assigned to CENTCOM of asking officers in flight suits "How was your flight" Not one had flown because there are no aircraft assigned to the HQ. Almost got an Art 15, because an O-6 decided I was being disrespectful. luckily I worked for a BG who had written the uniform regs for CENTCOM and was able to point out that flights suits were not authorized.

Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment.

I have no issue with it & don't understand why anyone else would. Would your concern for their uniform been worth an Article 15 in your record? Personally I have more important things to worry about than what the Colonel is wearing today.

As for CAP...I have no problem with bags being worn to a meeting either. I just don't see the big deal about it. I don't wear one & if 39-1 states that they are only for flying activities than so be it. I would not take issue with an aircrew member who comes to my meeting wearing one.

Just my 2 cents!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with air crew wearing flight suits to meetings.  It is a utility uniform.  I'm guessing those that are opposed have never set foot on an Air Force base.

The only thing I really have to say is that if you do wear it (or any other uniform for that matter), just make sure you wear it correctly.  Meaning don't look like you just pulled it off the bottom of your dirty clothes pile.  Make sure all zippers are closed.  Patches are in correct locations.  etc.  If someone's looking to get their undies in a bunch, that's a much bigger problem within the organization.  I don't consider myself a uniform "nazi" but the sloppy wear of uniforms is a pet peave and unfortunately an occurance that is much more common than it should be (primarily with senior members).

Heck......wear it if you have it, right??  Why not?  Everyone has pointed out that there is no written verbage prohibiting it.  By the way, not too far off topic but I wear my PT uniform for the good part of the day.  I wake up throw it on, do some PT, go to my office, post on CAPTALK, go teach an ROTC class, finish up with an afternoon jog and go home.  I only throw my ACU's on when I have to go see the Battalion Commander, and I rarely throw my Class A's on unless I have to attend a function on campus.  I also enjoy just wearing Khakis and a university polo.  I was always the guy who said, wear what you are comfortable in.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 18, 2007, 05:53:19 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 17, 2007, 10:46:31 PM

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

The Air Force requires aeronautical ratings to be worn. Civil Air Patrol has no equivalent policy. Besides, if you require it, you have to issue it.

So I can sell all this grade insignia back to Vanguard, secure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

No. It means that if your commander requires you to wear an item, you have to already have it, or it will have to be issued to you. If you don't have it, and it has not been issued to you, it cannot be required of you. That does not include items that are part of the minimum basic uniform requirement, only optional accoutrements.

My initial statement was made with the assumption that a person did not currently possess other than the basic items.

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:24:48 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on August 17, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
I'm a big fan of "uniform of the day."  Made lots of posts elsewhere on getting folks to feel like members of a team.

That said, we have to remember that not everyone in CAP even HAS a uniform.  And very few have all, or even close to all the uniforms.

I would never ever mix flight suits with service dress.  That would be wrong and silly.  And the golf shirt just needs to die.

And cadets need to dress alike most of the time- it's part of their military program.  We don't need any adolescent "I'm cooler than you because my Mom and Dad could afford flight lessons." 

But suppose you wanted your squadron "uniform of the day" to be BDUs.  Are you going to require seniors to buy BDUs? What about your pilots who have no need for that uniform?  Sure, you could make 'em (39-1 allows it), but is it really worth their money?   Wouldn't it make more sense to have them invest in the suit they will wear when doing their CAP job? 

Most USAF units are operating in a mix of BDUs and nomex.  This includes the Air Staff at the Pentagon.  The two suits blend pretty well, at least everyone is basically green.  If CAP did this, it would look...pretty air force-y.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

Now, cadets need to dress as alike as possible most of the time- it's part of their military program. 

(As an aside, if I ran CAP, the mandatory uniforms woudn't be service dress, it would be BDUs and flight suits.  That's the clothes when we're doing most of the important stuff.)

What important stuff do we do in BDUs? I thought that ES was completely optional?

CAP should forcus on Blue stuff, Aerospace education and the Cadet Program, way more then ES. Honestly, I think that some units obession with ES is the worst thing for the program. In my area, we have almost no missions what so ever. So we teach cadets such ES skills as 'Don't worry about your uniform, it's an emergency!' and 'Don't worry about rank, it's an emergency!'

I would honestly love to seperate the Cadet Program from the rest of the CAP junk.

ES is one of the three CORE missions of the CAP. Now granted, each squadron may focus on different things given different needs, desires, etc. However I joined CAP BECAUSE of ES. The cadets and AE are cool and all, but lessen ES in I, and many I know, will fall by the wayside.

Quote from: JThemann on August 17, 2007, 09:24:48 PM
What important stuff do we do in BDUs? I thought that ES was completely optional?

CAP should forcus on Blue stuff, Aerospace education and the Cadet Program, way more then ES. Honestly, I think that some units obession with ES is the worst thing for the program. In my area, we have almost no missions what so ever. So we teach cadets such ES skills as 'Don't worry about your uniform, it's an emergency!' and 'Don't worry about rank, it's an emergency!'

I would honestly love to seperate the Cadet Program from the rest of the CAP junk.

BDUs are not just an ES uniform.  You can do all the stuff in BDUs that you can do in blues, except attend a formal function.  You can march, launch rockets, fly, do ES stuff, attend class, build models, visit bases and fly in their simulators, do military orientation flights, and air shows.  ES is not BS.   You don't have to be a gung-ho ES guru to support the totality of the program.  I'm not an AE guru but I've learned enough in CAP to hold my own and because I lack the knowledge and experience I give 100% support to those who do.  I would only expect that same level of support from non-ES people.  As a squadron commander we did just as much high speed AE stuff as we did ES stuff.  In fact, I'd venture to say squadrons that I've commanded or at least played a major role in the management of said squadron offered everything a cadet could want and more.

Fixed misquote - MIKE

Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment. Quoted form Mikeylikely

The idea is if the "required" uniform for the unit is BDU or Class B, wearing a flight suit is a contravention  of the commander's order's. So he's either a hypocrite in not following orders or just too cheap to put the required uniform into the cleaners. Uniform means everyone wears the same thing and it's always posted in the plan of the day which is posted many days ahead.  Bottom line is leadership and setting the example. With the number of badges/wings available, there's no reason to wear a baggy flight suit to prove you're flight crew qualified, You should be wearing the same uniform as the members of your command. The reasoning that "I'm special so  can wear bags" doesn't stand up and I believe sets a bad example to the subordinates.

OK, people seem to have the impression that to simply have or wear a flight suit in CAP, one has to be on aircrew.  A CAP member could've never been or seen an airplane in his or her life and still be authorized to have the flight suit.  It's a uniform option for the senior or cadet to have.

Quote from: CASH172 on August 19, 2007, 04:30:49 AM
OK, people seem to have the impression that to simply have or wear a flight suit in CAP, one has to be on aircrew.  A CAP member could've never been or seen an airplane in his or her life and still be authorized to have the flight suit.  It's a uniform option for the senior or cadet to have.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Pg. 34Figure 2-19.  Men's and Women's Green Flight Suit and Green Flight Jacket (Flight Crews Only)

Emphasis mine.

Quote from: Mike M on August 19, 2007, 04:20:58 AM
Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment. Quoted form Mikeylikely

The idea is if the "required" uniform for the unit is BDU or Class B, wearing a flight suit is a contravention  of the commander's order's. So he's either a hypocrite in not following orders or just too cheap to put the required uniform into the cleaners. Uniform means everyone wears the same thing and it's always posted in the plan of the day which is posted many days ahead.  Bottom line is leadership and setting the example. With the number of badges/wings available, there's no reason to wear a baggy flight suit to prove you're flight crew qualified, You should be wearing the same uniform as the members of your command. The reasoning that "I'm special so  can wear bags" doesn't stand up and I believe sets a bad example to the subordinates.

The paragraph you quoted above was actually written by me. I understand the meaning of "uniform" & I don't disagree with much of your point. I was just wondering why it bothered you so much that you felt the need to ask an officer in a flightsuit sarcastic questions. The full bird I work for wears BDUs from time to time, but wears his flightsuit most of the time. It does not bother me in the least & even if it did I would not question him about it. He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Again...just my 2 cents!

Quote from: Viper QA on August 19, 2007, 02:29:18 PM
He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Ask his enlisted folks offline the question......."do you think it's unfair pilots that don't fly everyday still get to wear a flightsuit everday?"  You will most likely get a "NO".  Then there are the AF Officers that are not rated (chaplains, doctors) that throw it on to "boost" moral.  The whole thing is silly.

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 19, 2007, 04:50:31 PM

Quote from: Viper QA on August 19, 2007, 02:29:18 PM
He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Ask his enlisted folks offline the question......."do you think it's unfair pilots that don't fly everyday still get to wear a flightsuit everday?"  You will most likely get a "NO".  Then there are the AF Officers that are not rated (chaplains, doctors) that throw it on to "boost" moral.  The whole thing is silly.

I am one of his SNCOs & I could care less. What really is the difference to me if he is in a flightsuit & I am in BDUs? I think the whole idea that folks get bent out of shape over who is wearing a bag is silly.

A big part of the issue is SOME pilots feel that they can wear their flightsuit to ALL CAP meetings, regardless of the UOD AND they have the attitude that because they're PILOTS, they are above such things a unit commander's directions. I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit." This at a meeeting that was announced in advance that the clean up was happening and bdus or cloting appropriate to the task was to be worn.

The same type of attitude lead to the banning of berets for several years.

I think Andrew has a very legitimate point.  If you want to allow flight suits to be worn at meetings.  I think there is an easy way in theory to remedy this problem.  As an example, if your squadron wears the service uniform one week and a utility FDU/BDU for three others just illustrate what is allowed in the schedule.  UOD: service or UOD: BDU/FDUS.  If it is a meeting that requires only BDU's ground activities or something of that nature just put BDU's only.  The second problem seems to be just a lack of cooperation in that the individuals in FDUs know they shouldn't be wearing that but for whatever reason (anywhere from arrogance, ignorance, or defiance) they choose to wear the FDU and not wear the UOD.  The remedy for this is one of the great challenges in CAP, correcting a volunteer and trying to fix the problem without losing a skilled individual.

Adam

Quote from: arajca on August 19, 2007, 09:29:16 PM
A big part of the issue is SOME pilots feel that they can wear their flightsuit to ALL CAP meetings, regardless of the UOD AND they have the attitude that because they're PILOTS, they are above such things a unit commander's directions. I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit." This at a meeeting that was announced in advance that the clean up was happening and bdus or cloting appropriate to the task was to be worn.

The same type of attitude lead to the banning of berets for several years.

Banning of berets is a good thing.

Tags - MIKE

Hahahahaaaa...  Me in a flight suit while on a military plane.

That's right, a little cadet staff sergeant in a flight suit at age 16 just prior to going up with the Golden Knights during their jump at the Lake City Air Show.  That's right baby, my buddy and I managed to get ourselves on that flight and about two others in Florida.

Army didn't seem to have a problem with us wearing flight suits...

(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/gldn_knights_cdt.jpg)

Okay, just showing off...

We have people in our squadron who are GT people and that's all they want to be.  We also have people who are aviation only and that's all they want to be, and there's nothing wrong with either one.  What ends up happening is that on BDU days the aviation people show up in plain clothes or the polo, which is not really that bad but they should be able to wear their "work" uniform just like the GT people.

I like the way the RM does it...  If you are aircrew, then that's almost always your uniform of the day.

Quote from: arajca on August 19, 2007, 09:29:16 PM
...I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit."

Emphasis added.

Funny that they would perceive that as a problem. The flying crewchiefs in my unit are working on the helicopters all the time in their A²CU's. They don't seem to think that the dirt degrades the protection. Oil, grease or hyd fluid would be a different story, but dirt?

Methinks I smell a rat. Or in other terms, what a load of crap!

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 20, 2007, 10:04:27 PM
Methinks I smell a rat. Or in other terms, what a load of crap!

I think that's what he meant. 

39-1 clearly states that flightsuits are for flying, period.

If a member flies to a meeting, or expects to engage in CAP flight activities immediately preceding or following a meeting, then the flightsuit is acceptable.

Otherwise, simply put, it is against regulations.

What the Air Force (or flight personnel of the other military services) do is irrelevant in this case, because it is comparing apples and oranges...military people wearing the uniform of their daily service as opposed to CAP members changing from work or school clothes into a CAP uniform to attend a meeting.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 20, 2007, 11:31:08 PM
39-1 clearly states that flightsuits are for flying, period.

If a member flies to a meeting, or expects to engage in CAP flight activities immediately preceding or following a meeting, then the flightsuit is acceptable.

Otherwise, simply put, it is against regulations.

What the Air Force (or flight personnel of the other military services) do is irrelevant in this case, because it is comparing apples and oranges...military people wearing the uniform of their daily service as opposed to CAP members changing from work or school clothes into a CAP uniform to attend a meeting.

The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 12:30:57 AM
The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.

In some wings, "Black or Brown" means "orange"   :o

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 12:30:57 AM
The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.

LOL!   :)    :clap:

Quote from: capchiro on August 15, 2007, 01:04:46 AM
What opinions do we have regarding cadets wearing flight suits on orientation flighs and/or on aerospace education nights?  Does it make a difference if they have any type of CAP recognized wings??     

I know that in my old squadron, if we had new members without uniforms, we would throw them in a flight suit for orientation flights.  We had a couple in different sizes that were all "decked out" with patches except for the leather name tag.  We would take a blank leather name patch, put their last name and cadet on it and send them up.  As long as they had a membership card, it seemed that it was OK.  I don't know the true legality of that, but that's what we did like 6 or 8 years ago.

As for cadets wearing flight suits to meetings, my squadron commander put the mox nix on that.  Generally, in our squadron we wear Blues three out of 4 nights per month unless we have some sort of ES or other training going on.  Another thing I would point out is that there are cadet (18+) mission qualified scanners who do not get wings but do work on aircrews.  I personally think that cadets wearing flight suits simply because they are "cool" defeats the purpose of the uniform.

What about the excuse, it's comfy.  Also I find that wearing the flight suit as a cadet makes you appear to be a higher rank than what you really are.  When you're not wearing your flight cap, it's impossible to tell what grade that cadet is.  So a cadet in a flight suit could be a C/AB or a C/Col. 

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 12:30:57 AM
39-1 clearly states that flightsuits are for flying, period.

The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.
[/quote]

OK, this time I actually looked up the reg, rather than relying on memory, and I must humbly admit that I was mistaken, was reading too much into it, and you are correct!

For cadets, if they have one, regardless of how they acquired it, if they wish to wear it on an O-flight, I'm all for it. It's a legal uniform, makes them feel special, so why not? Weekly meetings, absolutely not, unless they're just coming off of an o-flight. Cadets doing flight training? Absolutely!

As for me, I do wear it to meetings more then I don't, simply because a decent amount of the time I end up flying either right before, during, or after, and honestly, I think I make the flight suit look better then the BDUs or blues. Promotion nights and special actions, or ES activities that don't have me flying, I submit and put on another uniform.

Personally, I've found it works rather well for recruting activities. Definitely gives off the "cool pilot" aura and attracts more  positive attention, as long as you have the uniform and yourself represent a shining example of CAP.

Quote from: sargrunt on August 21, 2007, 03:34:43 AM

Quote from: capchiro on August 15, 2007, 01:04:46 AM
What opinions do we have regarding cadets wearing flight suits on orientation flighs and/or on aerospace education nights?  Does it make a difference if they have any type of CAP recognized wings??     

I know that in my old squadron, if we had new members without uniforms, we would throw them in a flight suit for orientation flights.  We had a couple in different sizes that were all "decked out" with patches except for the leather name tag.  We would take a blank leather name patch, put their last name and cadet on it and send them up.  As long as they had a membership card, it seemed that it was OK.  I don't know the true legality of that, but that's what we did like 6 or 8 years ago.

I remember using the "Dymo Labeler" for a few promotions.  As long as the name tag doesn't have wings on it, it should be OK.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 21, 2007, 04:43:40 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 12:30:57 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 20, 2007, 11:31:08 PM
39-1 clearly states that flightsuits are for flying, period.

The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.

OK, this time I actually looked up the reg, rather than relying on memory, and I must humbly admit that I was mistaken, was reading too much into it, and you are correct!

No worries. I don't think the flightsuit should be the only thing that a member should own though. Wearing it once a month for a meeting other than flight ops is one thing, but wearing it to regular meetings to be elitist is another thing entirely.

As to other than "flight crews", I don't really know. I wore one long before I was doing aircrew stuff in years past, and I find it a more comfortable uniform. I don't see why it should be restricted to just "aircrew". I guess I'm really not in a position to make an objective analysis anymore. If someone spends the money on it, especially if they buy it brand new, then they should wear it on occasion (but not all the time) and get their money's worth.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 02:47:48 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 21, 2007, 04:43:40 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 21, 2007, 12:30:57 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 20, 2007, 11:31:08 PM
39-1 clearly states that flightsuits are for flying, period.

The only thing that 39-1 says "Flight Crews Only". It does not say "for flying activities". It does not say "for flight operations only." Reinterpreting the manual is just as bad as blatantly disobeying it.

OK, this time I actually looked up the reg, rather than relying on memory, and I must humbly admit that I was mistaken, was reading too much into it, and you are correct!

No worries. I don't think the flightsuit should be the only thing that a member should own though. Wearing it once a month for a meeting other than flight ops is one thing, but wearing it to regular meetings to be elitist is another thing entirely.

As to other than "flight crews", I don't really know. I wore one long before I was doing aircrew stuff in years past, and I find it a more comfortable uniform. I don't see why it should be restricted to just "aircrew". I guess I'm really not in a position to make an objective analysis anymore. If someone spends the money on it, especially if they buy it brand new, then they should wear it on occasion (but not all the time) and get their money's worth.

Elitist?  Heaven forbid we should actually have a CAP uniform that looks "cool".

Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

but you don't have a flight suit...

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

Why thank you. You're not so bad yourself.

Uhh...

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

I'll second it, that's why it's my favorite uniform, I think I make it look good. See the uniform contest.

Gotta be hoenst with you guys.  The way I feel, the flight suit is the only uniform I see myself wearing to the meeting tomorrow night.  If it makes people happy, I can walk into the meeting from the plane so it looks like I was flying and have good reason to be wearing a bag.

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

Have you considered your mirror might need recalibrating?

Quote from: jaybird512 on August 22, 2007, 10:20:47 PM
Elitist?  Heaven forbid we should actually have a CAP uniform that looks "cool".

You missed the point. How it looks is "cool". On the other hand, "I've got something that you don't!" is elitist.  If people are wearing it for the latter reason, it is a problem.

Wearing it to avoid details because the detail will supposedly degrade the uniform is both elitist and lazy. There are some people that exhibit that behaviour.

You want "cool"? Wear your uniform right. We could do our best to get the Air Force to permit us to wear accoutrements that aren't so garish as well. But allowing only some people to wear a "cool" uniform, and not others is elitist.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 23, 2007, 01:12:28 AM

Quote from: jaybird512 on August 22, 2007, 10:20:47 PM
Elitist?  Heaven forbid we should actually have a CAP uniform that looks "cool".

You missed the point. How it looks is "cool". On the other hand, "I've got something that you don't!" is elitist.  If people are wearing it for the latter reason, it is a problem.

Wearing it to avoid details because the detail will supposedly degrade the uniform is both elitist and lazy. There are some people that exhibit that behaviour.

You want "cool"? Wear your uniform right. We could do our best to get the Air Force to permit us to wear accoutrements that aren't so garish as well. But allowing only some people to wear a "cool" uniform, and not others is elitist.

It not "Elitist" when you are a pilot.  Pilots really ARE cooler than lesser people.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 23, 2007, 01:12:28 AM

Quote from: jaybird512 on August 22, 2007, 10:20:47 PM
Elitist?  Heaven forbid we should actually have a CAP uniform that looks "cool".

You missed the point. How it looks is "cool". On the other hand, "I've got something that you don't!" is elitist.  If people are wearing it for the latter reason, it is a problem.

Wearing it to avoid details because the detail will supposedly degrade the uniform is both elitist and lazy. There are some people that exhibit that behaviour.

You want "cool"? Wear your uniform right. We could do our best to get the Air Force to permit us to wear accoutrements that aren't so garish as well. But allowing only some people to wear a "cool" uniform, and not others is elitist.

I don't think I missed the point, I just think it has been split into two separate points.  If you wear the uniform to get out of having to do something that's required by everyone, then yes, that's not the right reason to wear it.

There is no CAP regulation that prohibits any person from working towards the (dare I say) right, or privilege to wear a flight suit.  Anyone who meets the criteria and works toward an aeronautical rating can wear it, or the approved colored alternative.  That is not elitist, it is a "perk" of that specialty, if you are a person who thinks that the uniform represents that.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 01:49:46 AM
It not "Elitist" when you are a pilot.  Pilots really ARE cooler than lesser people.

What if they're observers? Do you have "JAFO" hats for them?  ;D  >:D

Pilots are so cool, that some of their cool just naturally falls off onto observers.  Besides, if it weren't for observers, who would run interference with the fat chicks while the pilot makes time with the cute ones?  I would say that every Maverick must have a Goose, but real pilots don't go to THOSE kind of bars!

Quote from: SJFedor on August 22, 2007, 11:46:46 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
Has anyone said "I wear the flightsuit because I look sexy in it"?  If not, let me be the first to say it. 

I'll second it, that's why it's my favorite uniform, I think I make it look good. See the uniform contest.

You win!   :-*

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 02:33:37 AM
Pilots are so cool, that some of their cool just naturally falls off onto observers.  Besides, if it weren't for observers, who would run interference with the fat chicks while the pilot makes time with the cute ones? 

Ground teams.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 02:33:37 AM
I would say that every Maverick must have a Goose, but real pilots don't go to THOSE kind of bars!

Of course they do. They wouldn't show it in the movies if it wasn't true now, would they?   :D

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 02:33:37 AM
Pilots are so cool, that some of their cool just naturally falls off onto observers.  Besides, if it weren't for observers, who would run interference with the fat chicks while the pilot makes time with the cute ones?  I would say that every Maverick must have a Goose, but real pilots don't go to THOSE kind of bars!

I don't mind being the guy in the right seat as long as I get to wear that cool flight suit....  That way, apparently I can act like I'm better than everyone else.   ::)

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 23, 2007, 02:37:48 AM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 02:33:37 AM
Pilots are so cool, that some of their cool just naturally falls off onto observers.  Besides, if it weren't for observers, who would run interference with the fat chicks while the pilot makes time with the cute ones? 

Ground teams.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 02:33:37 AM
I would say that every Maverick must have a Goose, but real pilots don't go to THOSE kind of bars!

Of course they do. They wouldn't show it in the movies if it wasn't true now, would they?   :D

I have taken my fair share of fat chicks for the team.  I think it's time for the pilots to take a couple.  Everyone needs lovin

Quote from: jaybird512 on August 22, 2007, 10:20:47 PM


Elitist?  Heaven forbid we should actually have a CAP uniform that looks "cool".

There is a difference between "Hey, doesn't this look so cool.  It makes me look sexy." and "Hey, guess what.  I get to wear a flight suit because I'm Air Crew.  You can't. Ha Ha Ha."

Oh, if flight Suits are for Air Crew only, should BDU's be only for us Ground Pounders? 

If both AC and GP, you can have both.

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 23, 2007, 02:57:33 PM
Oh, if flight Suits are for Air Crew only, should BDU's be only for us Ground Pounders? 

If both AC and GP, you can have both.

Sure, wear your flightsuit under your BDU's    :o

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 23, 2007, 02:57:33 PM
Oh, if flight Suits are for Air Crew only, should BDU's be only for us Ground Pounders? 

If both AC and GP, you can have both.

Just stick with the way the RM does it...

39-1 allows pilots to decide what they want to wear anytime they want.  If it doesn't, it should.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 05:17:08 PM
39-1 allows pilots to decide what they want to wear anytime they want.  If it doesn't, it should.

Not quite.  It does require that a uniform be worn for flying in a CAP aircraft, so they can't be naked.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 23, 2007, 06:48:18 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 23, 2007, 05:17:08 PM
39-1 allows pilots to decide what they want to wear anytime they want.  If it doesn't, it should.

Not quite.  It does require that a uniform be worn for flying in a CAP aircraft, so they can't be naked.

And so they have coverage for when they die or get hurt. 

Quote from: CASH172 on August 23, 2007, 07:19:46 PM
Any so they have coverage when the they die or get hurt. 

Is that true......or an urban myth??

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 24, 2007, 03:12:05 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on August 23, 2007, 07:19:46 PM
And so they have coverage for when they die or get hurt. 

Is that true......or an urban myth??

Well I remember a story about a CAP pilot that decided to take a CAP plane up for I believe a mission, but he crashed and died.  He had been wearing a police uniform, his normal profession at the time.  Because of that they denied any claims saying he was a cop not a CAP member in the plane.

Quote from: CASH172 on August 24, 2007, 03:16:49 AM

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 24, 2007, 03:12:05 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on August 23, 2007, 07:19:46 PM
And so they have coverage for when they die or get hurt. 

Is that true......or an urban myth??

Well I remember a story about a CAP pilot that decided to take a CAP plane up for I believe a mission, but he crashed and died.  He had been wearing a police uniform, his normal profession at the time.  Because of that they denied any claims saying he was a cop not a CAP member in the plane.

Wow!  I wonder what the LE department said.  "He was not a COP at the time of his death.  I guess the NHQ Corporate lawyers are just as slimy as every other lawyer.

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 24, 2007, 04:13:45 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on August 24, 2007, 03:16:49 AM

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 24, 2007, 03:12:05 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on August 23, 2007, 07:19:46 PM
And so they have coverage for when they die or get hurt. 

Is that true......or an urban myth??

Well I remember a story about a CAP pilot that decided to take a CAP plane up for I believe a mission, but he crashed and died.  He had been wearing a police uniform, his normal profession at the time.  Because of that they denied any claims saying he was a cop not a CAP member in the plane.

Wow!  I wonder what the LE department said.  "He was not a COP at the time of his death.  I guess the NHQ Corporate lawyers are just as slimy as every other lawyer.

It's not slimy, just regs: You DON'T fly a mission if you are out-of-uniform (CAP uniform, that is..) 

Per 60-1:

2-9. CAP Membership Cards and Uniforms. All CAP members shall wear an appropriate CAP uniform and carry proof of current CAP membership when participating in CAP flight activities (This proof may be an actual, photocopy, or facsimile of their current CAP membership card or a copy of the MML or CAP-Watch report). When specified by the requesting agency and authorized by the wing commander, uniforms are not worn on designated Counterdrug flights.

Old saying: "you take the king's shilling, you do the king's bidding."

There was a similar case in Indiana where a CAP pilot in a CAP plane augered in while wearing a flannel shirt and jeans.

Sorry family.  No $$.

Have a nice day.

It just is not right!  Those are the tactics of insurance companies and evil executives. 

Oh, yeah... and thank you for your service.

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 24, 2007, 02:36:14 PM
It just is not right!  Those are the tactics of insurance companies and evil executives. 

I don't like it, but it's not evil.  If you don't know the regs for CAP, you shouldn't be flying.  The regs clearly state that you must be in a CAP uniform to be covered by our insurance.  If the pilot doesn't know- he should anyways, then if he decides to not wear a CAP uniform, then he should believe that he is not covered by CAP insurance.

Honestly, I would like to see a mod to the regs to allow flight suits for flight activites.

I know that AFROTC has a regulation that says that cadets on O-Flights can wear a bag without insignia, for safety.

But then again, I know some squadron commanders would proberly allow cadets to wear the bag all the time anyhow.

OK, while everyone is cool, what about the idea of setting a good example for the cadets.  Shouldn't the leadership wear the uniform of the day AND set a high standard in that uniform?  The DCC shouldn't be the only person in a "cadet mentor" role.  Am I missing something?  Aren't we supposed to be teaching the cadets something?

In my experience, "Chicks dig the flyboys" is a myth, they prefer the "ground pounders" because they are in better shape (LOL).  The lady in my life makes ME look good!

(Won't wear the polo or corporate uniform and doesn't need to.)

Not every unit has a "Uniform of the Day." My commander permits the DCC to establish the uniform for cadets. As for seniors, if they show up in a uniform, the commander is happy. UOD would be a hassle to accomplish.

However, the commander does require that all uniforms be worn properly. Even if not in the same uniform, they should all be worn with the appropriate attention to detail. Looking sloppy because you're different from everyone else isn't tolerated.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 25, 2007, 06:45:49 PM
Not every unit has a "Uniform of the Day." My commander permits the DCC to establish the uniform for cadets. As for seniors, if they show up in a uniform, the commander is happy. UOD would be a hassle to accomplish.

However, the commander does require that all uniforms be worn properly. Even if not in the same uniform, they should all be worn with the appropriate attention to detail. Looking sloppy because you're different from everyone else isn't tolerated.

I can go with that...  If the seniors are setting a good example in their uniform, that would work for me.  Ideally, I would refer to see the Seniors all wearing the same uniform.  I've seen alot of squadrons identify the expected uniform for a meeting in their schedules.  For example, the first and second meeting of the month is BDU's, third is blues, fourth is PT, etc.  That seems to have taken alot of the hassle out of it and the senior members can prepare their uniform/class materials according.  After all, it doesn't make much sense to teach a practical class on L-Per's in a service dress uniform (the dry cleaning bill is a pain <grin>).

Since we have another thread veering off in this direction, thought I'd revive this one. 

It's my opinion that if you're not going to, particpating in, or coming from flying, you shouldn't be in a flight suit. It always pissed me off when I would see people in flight suits when I was assigned to CENTCOM, No One in that HQ was in a flying billet, yet they all wore their bags. Of course they would get upset when I asked how the flight was! And yes there was a CENTCOM reg stating flight suits could only be worn when engaging in flight.

Strange huh?....This deserves another thread..........Thanks! :clap: :clap:

It seems to veer away to another point from the original topic.

As I stated in the other thread, *in a perfect world*, we should wear field uniforms (BBDU, BDU, etc.) only while in the field, flight suits only while flying, and wear the Blues/Corporate Equivalent to everything else. Is this a perfect world? No.

I think that we should NOT harp on the people who only wear the flight suit and ignore the people who only wear the polo, only BDUs, or only the blazer. If you are going to discriminate against one group, you are wrong. It's far better to discriminate against them all >:D or best yet none of them and hold everyone to the same standard. Heaven forbid that we be fair... :angel:

 Aren't flight suits suppose to be sort of "baggie" so you can put them on quickly over a regular uniform? Which is also a plus in a survival situation by the way!

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 01:32:04 AM
Aren't flight suits suppose to be sort of "baggie" so you can put them on quickly over a regular uniform? Which is also a plus in a survival situation by the way!

No, they are not designed to be worn over other clothing.

However, what comes between you and your flight suit is YOUR business. ;)

 Didn't know.......how do these pilots do it in a scramble....do they sit around in shorts and t-shirts all the time?

  Look, if you are in so much of a need to "take to flight" in an emergency, then at least wear a CAP flightsuit when you plan to attend a mmeting in it. And if you are in an area where you need to wear a flight suit all the time, then either you are in an area that has the worst luck I've ever seen and the Air Force knows it, or your combining and serving other "flight" business outside of CAP.
  Most AF people I know don't wear a flightsuit unless they are scheduled to fly as they have to have clearance........PERIOD!!!!

According to the CAPM 39-1, flight suits are to be worn only by "Flight Crew members." If I am sitting at my squadron meeting, I would not consider myself a flight crew member, since I am not acting as a pilot, observer, or scanner at that time.

The tenor of CAPM 39-1 is clearly designed to have flight suits only worn while active in flying.  Thus, it states while "en route" one only make necessary stops and behave in a military manner (grooming, mannerisms et al).  This could be posted up to demosntrate that.

However, that alone would make little sense.  If that were true, then one would have to do planning in blues or something else, then change into a flight suit to fly.

I finally, after year and years, actally have a flight suit (saved a dollar a day for a year and a half).  I keep in the the car incase it is needed. 

Also, aircrew is a qualification...not a condition.  Thus, a trainee, or MS-MP is a flight crew member.  I may be wrong and, if so, please contribute to my continuing education.

  Thank you Major...Sir!...That  (I think) says it all!

Rather than have two active bag threads... I'm killing this old one.