I cannot find the regulation that explains to me how to obtain a "sharpshooter" badge. Can someone please help me?
"marksman" **
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
I wish everyone knew that. I'm still seeing just about every NRA badge under the sun being worn by cadets. And I'm constantly losing the battle when I speak up about it.
We can only do what we can do, and once we make the effort, sit back and let people be goobers.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:55:17 AM
We can only do what we can do, and once we make the effort, sit back and let people be goobers.
I know, but it's hard not to be irked by willful disregard of the uniform.
Hey guys, can you please let me know when this reg changed? I was under the impression that NRA marksmanship badges could be worn and haven't seen anything to the contrary. Thank you.
CAPM 39-1 Table 6-2: Item 11
Quote from: ltdomke on April 13, 2011, 04:31:17 PM
Hey guys, can you please let me know when this reg changed? I was under the impression that NRA marksmanship badges could be worn and haven't seen anything to the contrary. Thank you.
CAPM 39-1 Table 6-2: Item 11
The regulation hasn't changed, which is the issue. The badge described in that table applies to a program that doesn't exist anymore. So, if you take an NRA marksmanship course and get a badge, it isn't going to be the one authorized.
Yep.
Ah, so because its now called the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program the cadets can no longer wear the medals when won.
I really think there should be a program for marksmanship training again. This time though I think it should be taught by the military. Give a badge for it instead of a ribbon. The biggest reason for me wanting a marksmanship program is that while in that sort of training there is more focus on familiarization and gun safety than there is actually focus on marksmanship. Teaching youth about gun safety is so dang important because of how often many kids interact with firearms. I believe it is so important I have started my six year old daughter with an airsoft rifle, and when she turns eight she will start using an actual BB gun and progressing from there. Why? Because I want my daughter to not be afraid of guns, and to know how to use them properly should she decide to have one herself later, or if she comes in contact with one without me.
Manfred, check out www.appleseedinfo.org.
There is no ribbon for the old NRA badge.
Correct on the above reference to the NRA marksmanship program (I know there are other NRA Certified Instructors here)
Reminds me of the encampment C/CC who was wearing his Army Expert Marksman badge and refused to remove it because "he earned it".
The badge that is authorized is the "Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge". Since this badge is no longer awarded, and appearently has not been for some time, no NRA badges are authorized on the uniform. The multi-level program now offered by the NRA is not the same as the Junior NRA Marksmanship program, therefore the current badges are not authorized.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on April 14, 2011, 09:47:13 AM
Correct on the above reference to the NRA marksmanship program (I know there are other NRA Certified Instructors here)
Reminds me of the encampment C/CC who was wearing his Army Expert Marksman badge and refused to remove it because "he earned it".
In these parts we refer to those cadets as "
Former "...
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2011, 01:44:47 PM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on April 14, 2011, 09:47:13 AM
Correct on the above reference to the NRA marksmanship program (I know there are other NRA Certified Instructors here)
Reminds me of the encampment C/CC who was wearing his Army Expert Marksman badge and refused to remove it because "he earned it".
In these parts we refer to those cadets as "Former "...
He could have been in the Guard or Reserves...
Quote from: DC on April 14, 2011, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2011, 01:44:47 PM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on April 14, 2011, 09:47:13 AM
Correct on the above reference to the NRA marksmanship program (I know there are other NRA Certified Instructors here)
Reminds me of the encampment C/CC who was wearing his Army Expert Marksman badge and refused to remove it because "he earned it".
In these parts we refer to those cadets as "Former "...
He could have been in the Guard or Reserves...
In which case, he was a knucklehead soldier, too. Any decent soldier would have asked first, or asked to see the pub on it.
Wearing an unauthorized award is wearing an unauthorized award. Refusing to remove it when he should have known to not wear it in the first place should have resulted in "Former" status on the spot. (Not that it's that quick, but it should be.)
I've got marksmanship badges from the Army, too. You'll never see it on my CAP uniform.
What stinks about this issue is the intent. Yes, the wording has changed. So technically according to the way the regs are worded, cadets can no longer wear the marksmanship badges. But the intent of the regs is for cadets to do just that. So its a case of cadets being denied the chance to wear an earned badge while getting some great training that is fun and will stick with them for life.
Yet another reason that we need a updated and very current uniform manual.
^^
I certainly agree that we need the updated 39-1. But part of the problem is a shortage of CAP members who are familiar enough with current NRA doctrine and programs that can draft appropriate language.
Heck, if we can get it together, I would bring it to the uniform committee personally, and even suggest an ICL.
Any volunteers to put together a suggested paragraph or two?
Ned Lee
Quote from: GroundHawg on April 15, 2011, 07:33:20 PM
What stinks about this issue is the intent. Yes, the wording has changed. So technically according to the way the regs are worded, cadets can no longer wear the marksmanship badges. But the intent of the regs is for cadets to do just that. So its a case of cadets being denied the chance to wear an earned badge while getting some great training that is fun and will stick with them for life.
Yet another reason that we need a updated and very current uniform manual.
That doesn't necessarily follow. I've actually seen the badge that the manual referred to. It was a competitive marksmanship badge, very similar in concept to the DCM badges, and took a great deal to earn. I asked the cadet that had it how long it took for him to get it, and he told me that he'd been going to matches for almost a year. So, the NRA badges you see cadets wearing these days aren't even remotely close in concept, and therefore intent is far different. Cadets aren't being denied the wear of anything that's actually equivalent (or even close to equivalent) to the one referenced in the manual.
Now if National wants to authorize the NRA badges for wear, I'll accept it. I don't they should be authorized though. A competition award shows dedication. A badge that you can get for a day at the range doesn't. Months of work (even a year) are worth recognizing. One day is not.
Allowing bling for the sake of bling doesn't serve any practical purpose.
Quote from: Ned on April 15, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
Any volunteers to put together a suggested paragraph or two?
Just use the existing courses of fire for the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp). But I would add that in order to qualify for CAP, it must be a properly supervised activity IAW CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 900-3... State which courses of fire can be considered, if there are any limitations. Create a qualification form (CAPF 2 series?) or memorandum for record.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 15, 2011, 09:49:48 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on April 15, 2011, 07:33:20 PM
What stinks about this issue is the intent. Yes, the wording has changed. So technically according to the way the regs are worded, cadets can no longer wear the marksmanship badges. But the intent of the regs is for cadets to do just that. So its a case of cadets being denied the chance to wear an earned badge while getting some great training that is fun and will stick with them for life.
Yet another reason that we need a updated and very current uniform manual.
That doesn't necessarily follow. I've actually seen the badge that the manual referred to. It was a competitive marksmanship badge, very similar in concept to the DCM badges, and took a great deal to earn. I asked the cadet that had it how long it took for him to get it, and he told me that he'd been going to matches for almost a year. So, the NRA badges you see cadets wearing these days aren't even remotely close in concept, and therefore intent is far different. Cadets aren't being denied the wear of anything that's actually equivalent (or even close to equivalent) to the one referenced in the manual.
Now if National wants to authorize the NRA badges for wear, I'll accept it. I don't they should be authorized though. A competition award shows dedication. A badge that you can get for a day at the range doesn't. Months of work (even a year) are worth recognizing. One day is not.
Allowing bling for the sake of bling doesn't serve any practical purpose.
I am a marksmanship instructor and the qualification program that the NRA now has cannot be completed in "a day at the range". It is a progressive qualification program.
The DCM program is a great one as well but the medals are in short supply and no longer mass produced but can be ordered in limited quantities.
To Ned Lee: PM me and I will help you draft the language. I have spoken to Joe Curry and Curt Lafond about this and have suggested by email that the next revision reflect the new program. Perhaps the answer is to design a CAP specific medal similar to the JROTC medals and designate either the DCM or NRA standards for awarding the medal.
Something similar in design to this (http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000002177877_MED.jpg).
or rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, adopt the National 3 position Air Rifle Program that JROTC uses and allow our cadets to qualify for those badges and compete against JROTC cadets in matches.
Qualification Regulations (http://www.odcmp.com/JMIC/MIFiles/7d.2Qualification%20Regulations_Feb09.pdf)
National Standard 3 Position Air Rifle Rules (http://www.odcmp.com/3P/Rules.pdf)
And if you want to add rimfire adopt the Rimfire Sporter course of fire
Rimfire Sporter (http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rimfire.pdf)
and add the smallbore rifle bar to the medal
Quote from: cap235629 on April 16, 2011, 12:26:27 AMI am a marksmanship instructor and the qualification program that the NRA now has cannot be completed in "a day at the range". It is a progressive qualification program.
I stand corrected. I'd actually heard that from one of the cadets that had earned one that it hadn't taken long. I had the impression that it was only a day.
How long is the actual program?
Quote from: cap235629 on April 16, 2011, 12:26:27 AMPerhaps the answer is to design a CAP specific medal similar to the JROTC medals and designate either the DCM or NRA standards for awarding the medal.
Quote from: cap235629 on April 16, 2011, 01:10:04 AM
or rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, adopt the National 3 position Air Rifle Program that JROTC uses and allow our cadets to qualify for those badges and compete against JROTC cadets in matches.
Rather than reinventing the wheel at all, just allow the badges that the NRA awards. I really don't see any reason to give Vanguard something else to overcharge us for. Besides, cadets are wearing the NRA badges anyway.
Not to mention, it would be a lot easier to just write them in. All you have to say is "X, Y, And Z badges are authorized for wear when awarded by the NRA." Add a requirement that any awards certificates be maintained in the personnel file, and you're done. No fancy committees, no special teams to produce criteria, nothing fancy. Any insistances on special study groups are just going to be supporting someone's ego.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 16, 2011, 03:01:37 AMHow long is the actual program?
Here is the basic qualification for light rifle. You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification. The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.
Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets
Basic Practical Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman 135/300 2 times
Marksman 150/300 2 times
Marksman 1st Class 180/300 2 times
Sharpshooter 225/300 3 times
Expert 255/300 4 times
Distinguished Expert 275/300 or better 5 times
or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.
Quote from: cap235629 on April 16, 2011, 06:02:37 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 16, 2011, 03:01:37 AMHow long is the actual program?
Here is the basic qualification for light rifle. You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification. The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.
Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets
Basic Practical Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman 135/300 2 times
Marksman 150/300 2 times
Marksman 1st Class 180/300 2 times
Sharpshooter 225/300 3 times
Expert 255/300 4 times
Distinguished Expert 275/300 or better 5 times
or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.
Would you have a link to pics of the badges? Full color photos prefereably. I'm kind of curious now as to which ones all the cadets I've seen wearing are which. I'm assuming colors for each are different?
A link on the basic rifle course you mentioned would be nice as well. I'm truly wondering how much time is spent on this program.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 16, 2011, 06:15:30 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on April 16, 2011, 06:02:37 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 16, 2011, 03:01:37 AMHow long is the actual program?
Here is the basic qualification for light rifle. You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification. The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.
Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets
Basic Practical Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman 135/300 2 times
Marksman 150/300 2 times
Marksman 1st Class 180/300 2 times
Sharpshooter 225/300 3 times
Expert 255/300 4 times
Distinguished Expert 275/300 or better 5 times
or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.
Would you have a link to pics of the badges? Full color photos prefereably. I'm kind of curious now as to which ones all the cadets I've seen wearing are which. I'm assuming colors for each are different?
A link on the basic rifle course you mentioned would be nice as well. I'm truly wondering how much time is spent on this program.
Here (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/qualbook.pdf) is a link to the Qualifications Program. There are pictures of the medals toward the end.
Here is a description of the Basic Rifle Course:
Name : NRA Basic Rifle Shooting Course
Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary for the safe use of a rifle in target shooting.
More Details: This course is at least 14 hours long and includes classroom and range time learning to shoot rifles. Students learn NRA's rules for safe gun handling; rifle parts and operation; ammunition; shooting fundamentals; range rules; shooting from the bench rest, prone, sitting, standing and kneeling positions; cleaning, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the Basics of Rifle Shooting handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, take a Basics of Rifle Shooting Student Examination, and course completion certificate.
Hello from sunny and hot Phoenix.
I would be interested to know of the current status of the Marksmanship Qualification. It seems to me that marksmanship is an excellent skill that would benefit cadets. I am unsure of why we're letting an expired regulation get in the way of Cadets not earning this qualification.
So, what is the process for getting the regulation changed to reflect the new title of the NRA program? Specifically, what can I do to help this issue toward resolution?
1Lt Matthew Costabile
Deer Valley Composite Squadron 302
Quote from: costabile.matt on June 17, 2011, 11:50:35 PM
Hello from sunny and hot Phoenix.
I would be interested to know of the current status of the Marksmanship Qualification.
There has never been a CAP "Marksman Qualification", and as of the current revision of the regs, there is no program, external or internal,
which allows for the wear of any badges related to firearms (except for military personnel, and those are pretty controversial).
If marksmanship qualification is the incorrect term then I stand corrected. I'll re-state the question though: Why has a change in the regulations essentially "expired" the ability for a Cadet to earn the marksmanship badge? It would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted. No?
Quote from: costabile.matt on June 18, 2011, 12:10:06 AM
If marksmanship qualification is the incorrect term then I stand corrected. I'll re-state the question though: Why has a change in the regulations essentially "expired" the ability for a Cadet to earn the marksmanship badge? It would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted. No?
The regulation did not change.....NRA changed.
The NRA used to have a youth marksmaship award....the one that is mentioned in 39-1. A few years ago NRA changed their program. That badge and that qualification is now gone...replaced by another badge and another program. So.....in the interveining years many squadrons just went by the spirit of the regulation and kept on authorising the new NRA badge...but a few months ago NHQ told us to stop doing that until they figure it out.
So...as of now....you can do weapons training....but no badges.
Quote from: costabile.matt on June 18, 2011, 12:10:06 AMIt would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted. No?
No. It is something cadets enjoy, but the resources required are hard to come by.
In my 11+ years it has never come up in even conversation, and I am aware of only a handful of times that anyone in my
wing has participated in any live fire activities, and based on my knowledge of the situation, a couple of those were probably done
outside the regs (seniors participating, etc.).
Oh, that makes everything quite a bit clearer. But, if resources were available, I would imagine a fair number of participating Squadrons across the country. You're right, the trick is in identifying the resources.
As for the interest, I would bet a fair amount of hands would be raised if we asked "any interest in marksmanship?" at our next meeting :)
SO, I am trying to understand the process involved in NHQ "figuring it out". Would you be willing to explain?
Thank you!
Quote from: costabile.matt on June 18, 2011, 12:25:45 AMSO, I am trying to understand the process involved in NHQ "figuring it out". Would you be willing to explain?
The Cadet Programs Directorate at NHQ (i.e. Curt LeFond and Co.), simply needs to decide that the current NRA program is acceptable
and update 39-3, 52-16, and or issue an ICL.
Doing that, however, won't make a bunch of NRA instructors and Military ranges available.
I have that resource in my backyard and we are not able to avail ourselves of it because of their regs and processes.
On the other hand.....here in Las Vegas it is simple. The NRA alrady has the youth shooting program. We just shot a letter to the wing commander....he okayed it....and we pay the $5 to the NRA to cover us at their range.
If you wanted to do something just for your squadron....again...a little bit of work and a few letter and okays...and it can be done.
Getting military shooting time with the USAF is a lot harder...because they just don't have the ammo.
Interestingly enough our squadron started 10 meter air rifle training last night. It took a ton of work to get the necessary approvals (almost 2 years in the making) the looks on the faces of the cadets made the hassle worth it. The key is to get the Wing Commander on board. The regs allow for it but it ain't easy!
:clap: Capt. Hobbs!!
How many qualified firearms instructors do we have here? ("...military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors." from CAPR 52-16, 2-11
I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns... >:(
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 18, 2011, 03:59:31 AM
I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns... >:(
?!
Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform
Quote from: Skydude61 on June 18, 2011, 12:56:45 PM
Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform
Yet.
Quote from: Skydude61 on June 18, 2011, 12:56:45 PM
Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform
Consider yourself confronted, and keep in mind the core values as you think about what your response should be.
I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc. I got Pro-Marksman without even trying. 8)
This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it. The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me. ???
It was the only military ribbon he had, since he had never been in the RM...all his other blingage was CAP.
According to AFI36-2226 (from 2003- now outdated...thanks MIKE for orignal post)
Quote from: MIKE on January 29, 2007, 04:33:13 AM
Quote from: AFI36-2226 2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training, students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun AFQC training program.
See this topic for when they removed it: (in the 2009 update of AFI36-2226)
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7483.msg137489#msg137489Maybe this is how he earned it and could wear it?
Quote from: CyBorg on June 18, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc. I got Pro-Marksman without even trying. 8)
This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it. The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me.
Easy-peasy. He can't "qualify as a CAP member", since there is no authorization for CAP senior members to participate in firearms training.
The authorization is for cadets only. A lot of members gloss right over that fact.
Well, somehow, by hook or by crook, he had one.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2011, 10:50:02 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 18, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc. I got Pro-Marksman without even trying. 8)
This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it. The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me.
Easy-peasy. He can't "qualify as a CAP member", since there is no authorization for CAP senior members to participate in firearms training.
The authorization is for cadets only. A lot of members gloss right over that fact.
It's even easier then that Bob. The 39-1 says we can wear military decorations when awarded by competent military authority.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen a personnel order issued by a military unit that has CAP personnel listed on it.
They only issue orders for their own people.
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 03:13:27 AMThey only issue orders for their own people.
Good point.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2011, 03:31:31 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 03:13:27 AMThey only issue orders for their own people.
Good point.
When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.
So......back in the day when that regulation was in force.....CAP personnel could get the marksman ribbon. Now...I don't think that program exists any more....so it is a moot point.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 06:25:20 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 19, 2011, 03:31:31 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 03:13:27 AMThey only issue orders for their own people.
Good point.
When I was on AD....
Kind of not remotely the same thing...
My point was that if you are looking for a "personnel order" for award of the marksmanship ribbon.....you won't find it...because they don't cut said orders.....for anyone....including AD personnel.
So....back in the day.....when maybe this unnamed senior member was allowed to take the AFQC for score and shot expert....they gave him his gard with "expert" on it.....just like all of mine......and he put said cad into his CAP personnel records......just like I did with my card into my UPRG (that is the USAF version of a personnel record).....went out and bought a ribbon.....just like I did.
All Kosher.
You say this unnamed senior member could never earn the award because it is not authorised....but at one time it was.
PHall posed that he could not earn it because CAP members are not mentioned on USAF Personnel Orders.....I just pointed out....neither are USAF member (in the case of the expert ribbon).
Now.....I will grant you....that it may be a case that someone (both CAP and USAF) don't know their instructions and regulations. It maybe that this SM shot at an AF range during an encampment or some other CAP activity and shot the highest score and the USAF range guy gave out the ribbon as a booby prize (this happend when I took my cadets to a Navy run range in Japan). The SM may....have rationalised that....well....the range officer is "a competant military authority" so I get to wear it.
That would be wrong......but lacking any other evidence.....it could go both ways.
IMHO is you can talk the USAF into letting you take the AFQC and score an expert rateing....then IMHO you should be able to wear the ribbon. YMMV.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 02:24:03 PMIMHO is you can talk the USAF into letting you take the AFQC and score an expert rateing....then IMHO you should be able to wear the ribbon. YMMV.
Given the right circumstance you can talk people into a lot of things, that doesn't mean one misinformed range master changes the rules on the wear of a badge.
In this case, were this person in my AOR, I would ask to see the substantiation, barring that, it comes off. If they weren't, I would whisper in the
ear of the person responsible.
Like anything else, substantiate or remove. No substantiation, leave it in your shadowbox. And yes, if someone actually quoted something like the above circumstance, then I would accept a notarized statement from them for their file. But my guess is that this is someone who accidently shot
a good grouping one time at a CAP activity, and thinks he can wear it. We get this every year at encampment, and we point out that the
navy badge (in our case) requires multiple times at the range, with various weapons, air charged, and some live fire. Not one session
with an uncharged M16.
Easy peasy.
You see that is where you and I differ.
If I see someone with something different.....I may ask them how they got it....."hey what's that for"......but I am certainly not going to challenged everyone to proove to me that they earned it.
A. If I am not in his/her chain of command....who the heck am I to appoint myself the ribbon tzar?
B. It's not that big of a deal. SM Joe Slob thinks he earned it 10 years ago...because that's what someone told him....I am not going make an ass of myself and try to force the issue.
I generally trust people. I see someone with command pilot wings on....I don't demand to see their log book. If I see someone with the ES patch on I don't demand to see their 101 card.
If you want to be that guy....well good on you.
Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 05:08:14 PM
Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...
You are splitting hairs....and you know it. My AF commander never saw my 522....never signed any sort of paper work for me....never even knew that I was at the range that day. I shot, the CATMS guys signed by 522 and I was took it to Awards and Decs and they updated me in the system, and put a copy of the 522 in my UPRG.
The "award authority" was the regulation....not my commander. I shot expert as certified by the range guys and I go the ribbon.
Same thing with my longevity ribbon, overseas tour ribbons, NDSM, AFSM, KSM, HSM, etc, et al. There is no discretion at the command level to authorise or not authorise the medal. You meet the criteria and you get the medal.....all you have to do is show proof to the personnelists at MPF to get it updated in your records.
Again....this is all moot as the AFI no longer allows CAP personnel to take the AFQC.....but at one time it did....and I surmise that the unnamed SM shot expert back when this was allowed.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 05:08:14 PM
Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...
You are splitting hairs....and you know it. My AF commander never saw my 522....never signed any sort of paper work for me....never even knew that I was at the range that day. I shot, the CATMS guys signed by 522 and I was took it to Awards and Decs and they updated me in the system, and put a copy of the 522 in my UPRG.
Your commander didn't know you were at the range that day??? CATM doesn't exactly do "walk in" service, you gotta be scheduled.
If for nothing else so thay can make sure they have enough ammo and targets.
But what do I know, I was just my squadron's Small Arms Qualification NCO. I scheduled everybody and did their gun card (AF Form 523) when they got back.
And my commander knew who went too becase he had to sign all those gun cards.
You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range. The CATMS guys gave me my slots. I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.
P.S.
Not everyone has a gun card. ;) Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 06:25:20 AM
When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.
Sorry - the awarding authority was the governing AF regulation (check the name of the person who signed the regulation to get really specific). CBPO used your qualification card to certify you meet the criteria established by the awarding authority to justify adding the ribbon to your record.
Quote from: Short Field on June 19, 2011, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 06:25:20 AM
When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.
Sorry - the awarding authority was the governing AF regulation (check the name of the person who signed the regulation to get really specific). CBPO used your qualification card to certify you meet the criteria established by the awarding authority to justify adding the ribbon to your record.
Yes you are correct......but my point is/was it was not my commander......it was the chief of staff of the Air Force. :)
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range. The CATMS guys gave me my slots. I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.
P.S.
Not everyone has a gun card. ;) Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.
No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 08:43:46 PM
No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.
I never had one while AD Air Force. May be required now, but it wasn't back in the nineties or late eighties. Don't even know what one looks like.
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 08:43:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range. The CATMS guys gave me my slots. I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.
P.S.
Not everyone has a gun card. ;) Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.
No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.
Yep....that's what I said.....the rules may have changed...but BITD....if you had to qualify for say PCSing, you just went got scheduled to the CATMS range and drew one of their weapons....no 523. When I was the training NCO for the 1st combat Comm, we all had our own assigned weapon in our own armory.....we got our 523 (we called it a butt card) and too it to the armory drew our weapon and gave it to the transporting NCO who boxed it and too it to the range for us. Everywhere else, when we were arming group C (IIRC) no assigned weapon, no normal duties requiring our own weapon, so no 523.
Either way. When I scheduled up a troop for weapons training.....my commander did not know about it....unless he communicated to me that we had to bumb someone due to a short notice tasking....used to happen a lot in the 1st Combat Comm.
Maybe you flyer types do things different, maybe the way things are done have changed in the last 10 years or so. But my bottom line is and aways has been........if the AFI said that CAP personnel could do the AFQC...and they shot expert....then they could be awarded the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.
CAP Regulations allow for all ribbons awarded by competant military authority to be worn on the uniform.....ergo....it is possible for someone prior to current AFI to have earned the ribbon.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 19, 2011, 08:43:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range. The CATMS guys gave me my slots. I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.
P.S.
Not everyone has a gun card. ;) Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.
No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.
Yep....that's what I said.....the rules may have changed...but BITD....if you had to qualify for say PCSing, you just went got scheduled to the CATMS range and drew one of their weapons....no 523. When I was the training NCO for the 1st combat Comm, we all had our own assigned weapon in our own armory.....we got our 523 (we called it a butt card) and too it to the armory drew our weapon and gave it to the transporting NCO who boxed it and too it to the range for us. Everywhere else, when we were arming group C (IIRC) no assigned weapon, no normal duties requiring our own weapon, so no 523.
Either way. When I scheduled up a troop for weapons training.....my commander did not know about it....unless he communicated to me that we had to bumb someone due to a short notice tasking....used to happen a lot in the 1st Combat Comm.
Maybe you flyer types do things different, maybe the way things are done have changed in the last 10 years or so. But my bottom line is and aways has been........if the AFI said that CAP personnel could do the AFQC...and they shot expert....then they could be awarded the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.
CAP Regulations allow for all ribbons awarded by competant military authority to be worn on the uniform.....ergo....it is possible for someone prior to current AFI to have earned the ribbon.
We had a Training Currency Report and it was divided into sections. Flying events and Ground events.
Ground events covered stuff like weapons qual, shots, SABC, Chem Warfare and all of the other crap you have to do if you're Worldwide Deployable.
And I know for a fact that everybody else, flyer or ground pounder, had a Training Currency report too. And if you went non-current for something your Commander found out about because they would get a report from Wing Training telling them who was non-current and why.
If they had too many of their troops who were non-current they usually got to tell the Wing Commander during the "Stand Up" why they couldn't keep their troops current.
Not exactly the way to keep your job.
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 18, 2011, 03:59:31 AM
I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns... >:(
So, back on topic of cadets wearing a marksmanship badge....
Can you elaborate on "liability concerns"? I'm truly interested in what you came up against, and in which state since laws vary.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.
Quote from: shlebz on July 04, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on July 04, 2011, 12:53:56 AM
Quote from: shlebz on July 04, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.
i told her i just recieved the rating and she said i was still allowed to wear the medal on my uniform..
Quote from: shlebz on July 04, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.
Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.
Quote from: cap235629 on July 04, 2011, 01:04:31 AM
Quote from: shlebz on July 04, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.
Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.
i would be happy too just PM me your email and i will forward it to you...
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on July 04, 2011, 12:53:56 AM
Quote from: shlebz on July 04, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AMThe only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.
You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.
The actual medal awarded has not changed. The course of fire has and the certificate now bears the "Winchester" label.
Quote from: cap235629 on July 04, 2011, 01:04:31 AM
Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.
This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved. Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done. It is clearly National's (and the Air Force's) intent to allow cadets to wear a badge for the NRA marksmanship program. It is likely that there were no NRA instructors or similar people on the NB or in the AF approval chain who noticed the wording since they do not include previous cadet awards for which nobody would be young enough in the cadet information (no COP, etc.).
Quote from: cap235629 on July 04, 2011, 01:11:41 AM
The actual medal awarded has not changed. The course of fire has and the certificate now bears the "Winchester" label.
The course of fire has SIGNIFICANTLY changed. Yes, the physical medal has not changed, however the new Winchester Marksman program covers more than just 1 course of fire. Just within rifles you have Silhouette qualification, 4-position rifle, light rifle, American Rifleman, High Power Rifle (aggrigate course [Service rifles], and sport course [Modified rifles]). In total there are 15 courses of fire between rifle, pistol, and shotgun (not including the sub-categories within each). They all have very different requirements for the medals, but they all utilize the exact same medal. Not going to say this is or isn't a problem as its up to interpretation. I can see some issue come up though. Something CAP will need to address if a change to regulation is made. And as mentioned before about National saying its Ok to wear the medal... which course of fire is it ok to wear the medal for?
Don't take me the wrong way, I'm a rifle enthusiast, NRA Certified Instructor, and support the idea of cadets being recognized for their marksmanship talents, though with the current marksman program, I just see a lot off issues that could arise if we continue to authorize the current badge. CAP really needs its own marksmanship program.
Quote from: Captainbob441 on July 04, 2011, 02:07:01 AMCAP really needs its own marksmanship program.
First, I don't see that happening.
Second, it's a lot easier to have someone else handle the liability. NRA has far better insurance than CAP does.
There really is no need to have our own program. But, what programs would be recognized needs to be spelled out. Military issued CMP badges are legal(at least the ones that say "U.S. Air Force" on them), no reason NRA or non-military CMP badges shouldn't be. You don't have to do anything special with regs other than add a line saying the badges are authorized when awarded, and a couple of pics or illustrations as to what the badges are. Far easier than trying to build your own program from scratch.
CAP has enough on it's plate as it is. It's easier to farm out things when you can. Lot cheaper, too. And it avoids other issues as well.
Quote from: JC004 on July 04, 2011, 01:56:39 AM
This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved. Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done.
We ("NHQ")
know the regulation is outdated and that the NRA has updated their programs.
As I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along. We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.
There are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.
Ned Lee
NHQ CP Type Person
Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2011, 04:10:40 AM
Quote from: JC004 on July 04, 2011, 01:56:39 AM
This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved. Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done.
We ("NHQ") know the regulation is outdated and that the NRA has updated their programs.
As I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along. We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.
There are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.
Ned Lee
NHQ CP Type Person
i would be more than happy to help if you let me know what it needs to consist of, form it needs to be in, and any other important information.
Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2011, 04:10:40 AMAs I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along. We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.
With due respect, why is that?
How many times do we need to say "this is broken"? Why aren't the SME and curriculum people at NHQ charged with fixing things
self-initiated? Or at least asking for assistance officially?
There's probably 50 people who could knock this out in a week.
Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2011, 04:10:40 AMThere are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.
CT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.
Thanks, Ned.
Just the kind of direct answer we needed.
Our unit has held two NRA events in the last year, with the most recent one the same weekend as NCC, that our paperwork finally came back about 10 days prior.
We still pulled it together and had just over 50 participants at an excellent facility out in the country side. Ironically, just three from our unit. To be fair, a great many were either on vacation or participating in NCC, or other CAP activities that same weekend. I can't wait for them to say yet again that "you people don't participate, you do your own thing".. but thats another thread..
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2011, 04:46:22 PMCT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.
So the one time where our opinions and assistance is requested you poo poo it? ???
Howzabouts this...
That sounds good.
Here is what I came up with.
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2011, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2011, 04:46:22 PMCT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.
So the one time where our opinions and assistance is requested you poo poo it? ???
No, but it's been asked before with notable crickets as the end results.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2011, 06:32:46 PM
That sounds good.
Here is what I came up with.
I would suggest find / replace weapon with firearm. This is the terminology used in all NRA courses except personal protection. Why buy trouble w/ the w word?
A marksmanship ribbon for completing a safety course?
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2011, 06:28:09 PM
Howzabouts this...
The Sharpshooter medal has bars available. I'd suggest adding language that the highest bar be allowed. All 9 looks silly.
As I mentioned in an other post I don't think a ribbon for the basic course is in order.
I'd suggest
Pro-Marksman ribbon
Marksman Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter Silver Star (remove Bronze Star(s))
Expert Gold Star
Distinguished Expert 2 Gold Stars
I've run a junior rifle program for 10 years and have only awarded 2 Expert Ratings and 0 DE
I've got no problem with allowing a badge, we just need to specify what badges. But, I don't feel that we need our own ribbon. Recognizing accomplishments is one thing. Making it look like it's one of our accomplishments is something else entirely, and not a path we should be going down. If it's not a program that we specifically run, our own awards are not appropriate.
Quote from: phirons on July 04, 2011, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2011, 06:32:46 PM
That sounds good.
Here is what I came up with.
I would suggest find / replace weapon with firearm. This is the terminology used in all NRA courses except personal protection. Why buy trouble w/ the w word?
A marksmanship ribbon for completing a safety course?
Yep.
If we make it an "expert" marksmanship ribbon....then we have to fight over everyone's definition of this.
NRA has marksman, pro marksman, et all.
The USAF has "qualified" and "Expert"
Army and marines have Marksman, sharpshooter, expert.
The CMP has distinguished and international distinguished shooter.
So....let's keep it simple. Pass the basic marksmanship course...and you get a ribbon. If you want to show different levels of proficiency...then we can set up more rules for devices and such.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2011, 10:00:06 PM
I've got no problem with allowing a badge, we just need to specify what badges. But, I don't feel that we need our own ribbon. Recognizing accomplishments is one thing. Making it look like it's one of our accomplishments is something else entirely, and not a path we should be going down. If it's not a program that we specifically run, our own awards are not appropriate.
the problem with using other people's badges....is that it means when they change we have to also. It also limits where you can get the fire arms training from. (i.e. if you get your fire arms training from JROTC or a USAF firearms course you get nothing).
Having our own badge/ribbon...but using other peoples training allows us to stay the same even if they change.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 13, 2011, 12:52:41 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.
The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
I wish everyone knew that. I'm still seeing just about every NRA badge under the sun being worn by cadets. And I'm constantly losing the battle when I speak up about it.
My god tell me about it. I'm in the same boat. I was the CAC Chair for COWG a couple years ago, and one of the things I made sure to address was the NRA Badges, and we had informed all Squadron Commanders that they were not allowed, and the reasoning with citations, but some squadrons in COWG continue to do this non-existant program and give their cadets badges. (We did for a while too, until I figured this out) Then when I see these cadets (usually of higher grade than me) I politley inform them that under my term the wing had said no to these, and they chew me out infront of everyone for suggesting the idea they might be wrong. Its rather imbarrasing. :-\ I was involved on the orgional thread that brought this up and made a big push to get it corrected nationally (even suggesting we reinstate the program in cooperation witht he NRA) but that didnt work out so well...
I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)
I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:
1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.
2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.
My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it. :'( lol
I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2011, 06:28:09 PM
Howzabouts this...
I like this one the best of those presented but prefer a solid colored ribbon so that the attachments are more visible.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:26:55 AM
My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it. :'( lol
Or update the reg to reference the current program. Much simpler.
Instead of stars. Navy/CG style S and E for Sharpshooter and Expert.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:26:55 AM
I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)
I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:
1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.
2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.
My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it. :'( lol
I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.
Stop thinking so much ;)
The actual medal presented has not changed. The program and certificates have.
The NRA will not re-introduce a program just to meet a CAP requirement. It is so much easier to fix our regulation.
As an aside, I sent a proposal to NHQ and Curt Lafond regarding the actual wording of 52-16 has about who is deemed a qualified instructor. The language fails to recognize 2 of the largest certifying bos
dies in shooting sports, 4-H and the CMP. My suggestion came as a result of having to get a "waiver" to be recognized as an instructor as I am certified by both of those bodies. My suggestion didn't make the latest revision.
Interestingly enough, all JROTC marksmanship instructors in all branches are REQUIRED to be certified through the CMP.
Quote from: arajca on July 05, 2011, 01:32:40 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:26:55 AM
My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it. :'( lol
Or update the reg to reference the current program. Much simpler.
I'd agree, but unfortunatly the problem there is in my point #2. The program that these medals went with doesnt exist anymore either. The program that the NRA is using with CAP cadets is something completley seperate of the Junior Marksmanship Program, and the program the medals went with is well. (These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)
To be honest, there are so many holes in this one, I have to wonder who the person was that came up with the idea to give their cadets these badges many many years ago, in all honesty, this person had to be looking very hard for these medals and trying to make it look like they were the right ones (I think they were doing a little dirty work and decieving everyone) :P
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:41:43 AM
(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)
Yes they were
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:36:46 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:26:55 AM
I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)
I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:
1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.
2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.
My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it. :'( lol
I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.
The actual medal presented has not changed. The program and certificates have.
Thats the other point I see alot from people, and you do have a lagit point, I may be overthinking this, and maybe the person who wrote CAPM 39-1 did mean it to be the way people interprit it, but in a time line of events, here is how i see it.
(A) 1980's: the Official Junior Marksmanship program ends.
(B) between 1980's and early 2000's: A new NRA program was created which the medals were awarded in. This program was also ened recently (within last 10 years)
(C) 2005: CAPM 39-1 is published refferancing the Junior Marksmanship program which has not existed for a couple decades at this point.
(D) 2005-2006 (Shortly after 39-1 release): Someone connects A and B and makes X. X being the event that sparks confusion.
So in conclusion, yes the awards cadets are wearing from the NRA are probably those intended by 39-1, and this should be looked at, but for now, there are so many loopholes in this, I think its better to just take them off and then go forward with figuring it out. But the biggest problem is the medals cadets are being awarded are from a program that no longer exists. And to this point I havent heard of any NRA people noticing and getting upset, but all it takes is one...
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:42:57 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:41:43 AM
(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)
Yes they were
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:04:17 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:42:57 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:41:43 AM
(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)
Yes they were
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
The physical medal has been the same for well over 30 years. I earned mine in 1981 and it is the same medal.
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 02:07:11 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:04:17 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:42:57 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 01:41:43 AM
(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)
Yes they were
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
The physical medal has been the same for well over 30 years. I earned mine in 1981 and it is the same medal.
Ok, I believe you, I'm a man of all fairness, I was wrong on a small bit, but that still doesnt change the fact that neither of these programs exist anymore. And the medals there from can not be awarded anymore. Hence why the NRA doesnt sell them and you have to search days for a third part who does.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:04:17 AM
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
Strange....I was just on the NRA web sight....and they still have their marksmans program.
So...I don't know what you are googleing...
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp)
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)
Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2011, 05:49:04 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:04:17 AM
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
Strange....I was just on the NRA web sight....and they still have their marksmans program.
So...I don't know what you are googleing...
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp)
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)
Yes, it is getting very spacific here, but again, the "Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program" Is the newest program they are running. It is not the "Junior Marksmanship Program" or the "Marksmanship Program." Both of these programs did lead up to the current one, but are different. The information I'm getting is from a local NRA Chapter Instructor, whom I have known for many years, and I know this mans word is one to live on. According to him, the medals are no longer awarded by the NRA. In the NRA, members now wear the patches with the rockers, and anyone who has seen a recent red NRA uniform knows this. He said the NRA has not awarded those medals since the "Marksmanship Program" Which ended years ago, and yes, was a lead into the new "Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program" But the requirements are different, as well as the awards. And again, this program is not the program refferanced in CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2011, 02:24:03 PM
So....back in the day.....when maybe this unnamed senior member was allowed to take the AFQC for score and shot expert....they gave him his gard with "expert" on it.....just like all of mine......and he put said cad into his CAP personnel records......just like I did with my card into my UPRG (that is the USAF version of a personnel record).....went out and bought a ribbon.....just like I did.
All Kosher.
This has been some time ago but this CAP LTC told me that he got the ribbon from qualifying at an ANG installation, and the ANG wing king signed off on it.
I dunno...maybe since it was on an ANG base, some arcane State regulation allowed it...beyond that, I don't know.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 06:32:03 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2011, 05:49:04 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:04:17 AM
No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only references to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.
Strange....I was just on the NRA web sight....and they still have their marksmans program.
So...I don't know what you are googleing...
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp)
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)
Yes, it is getting very spacific here, but again, the "Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program" Is the newest program they are running. It is not the "Junior Marksmanship Program" or the "Marksmanship Program." Both of these programs did lead up to the current one, but are different. The information I'm getting is from a local NRA Chapter Instructor, whom I have known for many years, and I know this mans word is one to live on. According to him, the medals are no longer awarded by the NRA. In the NRA, members now wear the patches with the rockers, and anyone who has seen a recent red NRA uniform knows this. He said the NRA has not awarded those medals since the "Marksmanship Program" Which ended years ago, and yes, was a lead into the new "Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program" But the requirements are different, as well as the awards. And again, this program is not the program referenced in CAPM 39-1.
Okay.....when I take my cadets to the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program here in Las Vegas....every month.....they do in fact award these badges... and as you can tell by the link provided the NRA still sells them.
I agree......the current NRA program is not the Junior Markmans program mention in 39-1.......but that is neither here nor there.
Also....."I know this guy and I trust him" is not really a very good argument. Especially that you are more or less anonymous your self.
Quote from: CyBorg on July 05, 2011, 07:14:09 AM
...this CAP LTC Lt. Col. told me
...
Well we all know that the above sentence has never ended in anything but accurate, timely information, so...
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2011, 06:28:09 PM
Howzabouts this...
I like this one the best of those presented but prefer a solid colored ribbon so that the attachments are more visible.
i agree except i like the idea of having to earn pro-marksman before earning the ribbon. but i like the look of the ribbon
Quote from: shlebz on July 05, 2011, 05:47:51 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2011, 06:28:09 PM
Howzabouts this...
I like this one the best of those presented but prefer a solid colored ribbon so that the attachments are more visible.
i agree except i like the idea of having to earn pro-marksman before earning the ribbon. but i like the look of the ribbon
I dont want anymore ribbons :o
Okay.....when I take my cadets to the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program here in Las Vegas....every month.....they do in fact award these badges... and as you can tell by the link provided the NRA still sells them.
I agree......the current NRA program is not the Junior Markmans program mention in 39-1.......but that is neither here nor there.
Also....."I know this guy and I trust him" is not really a very good argument. Especially that you are more or less anonymous your self.
[/quote]
Well "I know this guy and I trust him because he is an expert NRA chapter leader," is different than "I know this guy and I trust him because he used to shoot with the NRA 10 years ago."
Take a dance instructor for instance. I know jack squat about dancing, but if a dance instructor tells me there is a differance between the tango and grinding, hey, I'll listen to them! ::)
Sounds to me like the NRA is much like CAP. Here in colorado, the badges arent given out anymore, they said they phased out of them years ago. meanwhile in LV, they are still handing them out... haha, such a familiar story! ;)
They may not be given out......that is the local NRA club may not go out and buy them and award them to their members....but NRA sells packages for each level that includes a certificate, the rocker patch and the badge.
Just because one place does not do it....does not mean the entire organisation does not do it.
That is one of the problems with going with "well someone told me". We see it all the time everywhere in CAP, the AD USAF, work. If you want to sound knowledgable on your subject you need to be careful spouting off second hand information.
Now...having said that...I am not in the NRA....nor am I an NRA instructor. It is always possible that here in Nevada the NRA club is doing it wrong. But.....given the fact that they still sell them at the NRA web site one can reasonablly assume that the NRA does in fact still award the badges.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 06:39:03 PM
Okay.....when I take my cadets to the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program here in Las Vegas....every month.....they do in fact award these badges... and as you can tell by the link provided the NRA still sells them.
People do all sorts of silly things.
There are Units that have received Commanders Commendations. Citing something "happened" doesn't make it correct.
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 06:39:03 PM
Well "I know this guy and I trust him because he is an expert NRA chapter leader," is different than "I know this guy and I trust him because he used to shoot with the NRA 10 years ago."
You're still missing the point. "I know this guy and trust him" is completely different than "John Q. Doe, in the Reno, Nevada marksmanship training club run by the NRA says that these badges are still awarded."
It's a case of citing your sources. "I know a guy..." is usually one of the statements that gets what you put forth ignored. You may not think it's right, but it's the way professionals work.
Put in a slightly different setting, which sounds better? "I heard from a guy that I can wear the ES patch on my BDUs" compared to "CAPM 39-1 states that the Emergency Services patch is worn one half inch above the nametape of BDUs." Which one sounds more informed?
"Goodfella Research®" generally ends as soon as you find someone who agrees with you.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 06, 2011, 02:04:26 AM
"Goodfella Research®" generally ends as soon as you find someone who agrees with you.
Mind if I borrow that?
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2011, 02:37:55 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 06, 2011, 02:04:26 AM
"Goodfella Research®" generally ends as soon as you find someone who agrees with you.
Mind if I borrow that?
Enjoy.
I have a question.
What is it to anyone if the cadets earned the said "marksmanship" badge, why not let them wear it? They took the time to shoot accurately for probably some months and are proud to wear it. Why take that away from them? If it is not the word for word program in CAPM 39-1, pg 108 Table 6-2, then why not just change the program wording?
I just don't see the point behind taking away an award that they have earned.
Quote from: Vegas on July 11, 2011, 04:29:20 AMI just don't see the point behind taking away an award that they have earned.
It is not currently possible to earn any authorized marksmanship badge as a cadet in CAP. The program that awarded the authorized badges
no longer exists. Any cadets who earned the badge(s) under the old program would be free to continue to wear them, but those numbers
are shrinking every year (assuming we haven't already last the point where the last one would have aged-out).
What is it to anyone?
As a cadet officer you know we
live and die are guided in all things by regulations, including what we are allowed to wear on our uniforms. The "word for word" (s) of 39-1 are also what authorizes cadets to wear the NRA badge at all, and considering that the NRA is in no way affiliated with CAP, and CAP is a non-combatant organization, one could also make the argument that we should just end the wear of any NRA badge at all (not that I am advocating that).
Hopefully at some point in the near future the wording will be corrected, but there's no guarantee it will, nor any guarantee it will be corrected
to allow the new program's badges to be worn.
Why not let them wear their Eagle Scout badge too....they earned it as well.
I agree with your sentiment....this is really a no brainer....and you will see that in my squadron we allow those cadets who were awareded the badge during the "gray" period to continue to wear them.
Having said that...we don't allow anyone else to wear them. We are waiting for NHQ to figure it out.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2011, 04:58:17 AMAs a cadet officer yo know we live and die by regulations, including what we are allowed to wear on our uniforms.
No we live and die by the mission.
But let's no go down that road. :D
Quote from: lordmonar on July 11, 2011, 05:01:31 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2011, 04:58:17 AMAs a cadet officer yo know we live and die by regulations, including what we are allowed to wear on our uniforms.
No we live and die by the mission.
Corrected.
We just had a few cadets from the TXWG out our way and one of them was wearing the marksman medal. I didn't want to make a big issue out of it, so I simply asked him what it was. He said he got it for completing the NRA course a couple of years ago. I said I thought we no longer allowed wearing an award for that and said it was authorized in the TXWG.
I figured he was a cadet doing what he was told and the last thing I wanted to do was start some sort of intra-wing war, so I just thanked him for the information.
How are we doing on coming up with some language for Col Lee to take to the national board? It would be nice to get this fixed!
Quote from: UWONGO2 on July 11, 2011, 06:40:32 AM
How are we doing on coming up with some language for Col Lee to take to the national board? It would be nice to get this fixed!
I was asked by Ned to work on this and the proposed regulation and list of changes to current regulations is in his hands..
Now the waiting begins
QuoteSo.....in the interveining years many squadrons just went by the spirit of the regulation and kept on authorising the new NRA badge...but a few months ago NHQ told us to stop doing that until they figure it out.
So...as of now....you can do weapons training....but no badges.
if you email NHQ asking if you can wear the badge on your uniform they tell you that you still can...
Who?
History has shown that if you send enough messages to NHQ you can get someone to OK just about everything.
Absent an ICL, the person you heard from may be an SME, even the decision maker, but that doesn't change the reg.
It's in force, as written, until properly changed (or at least contradicted by two other docs purporting to be the sole authority).
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Who?
History has shown that if you send enough messages to NHQ you can get someone to OK just about everything.
Absent an ICL, the person you heard from may be an SME, even the decision maker, but that doesn't change the reg.
It's in force, as written, until properly changed (or at least contradicted by two other docs purporting to be the sole authority).
SUSAN P. PARKER
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Phone: 877-227-9142 extenstion 212
FAX: 334-953-4262
Email:SPARKER@capnhq.gov
Why would a cadet be contacting NHQ?
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 03:52:24 PM
Why would a cadet be contacting NHQ?
Why not? They are dues paying members just as you are, and have every right to the services NHQ provides. I'm sure most cadets have better questions than the "what time is the field trip my squadron is hosting" questions (from seniors) I had the opportunity to field.
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Who?
History has shown that if you send enough messages to NHQ you can get someone to OK just about everything.
Absent an ICL, the person you heard from may be an SME, even the decision maker, but that doesn't change the reg.
It's in force, as written, until properly changed (or at least contradicted by two other docs purporting to be the sole authority).
SUSAN P. PARKER
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Phone: 877-227-9142 extenstion 212
FAX: 334-953-4262
Email:SPARKER@capnhq.gov
Yes - exactly my point.
Ms. Parker is a respected member of NHQ staff and someone who keeps things moving. She is considered an SME on a number of subjects, however as she is not in the chain, nor on the board or the NEC, she doesn't not have the authority to make these decisions. She may well be sitting next to the person who makes the decision and would ultimately recommend to the appropriate bodies that things change, but until those changes are made, things are what they are.
Second, unless you actually cite the specific question asked and the specific answer given, it's hard for use to even know if what she told you is applicable. Simply copying her contact info from the NHQ website isn't exactly an ICL.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2011, 03:59:42 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 03:52:24 PM
Why would a cadet be contacting NHQ?
Why not? They are dues paying members just as you are, and have every right to the services NHQ provides. I'm sure most cadets have better questions than the "what time is the field trip my squadron is hosting" questions (from seniors) I had the opportunity to field.
All problems should be resolved at the lowest possible level. The org chart isn't there for wallpaper.
If all 61,000 members contacted NHQ to answer questions, nothing would get done.
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
All problems should be resolved at the lowest possible level. The org chart isn't there for wallpaper.
If all 61,000 members contacted NHQ to answer questions, nothing would get done.
I have to agree.
The proper procedure here is to forward the question up the chain to the DCP and have that person either go up further or call
NHQ, then issue a position paper back to the wing. That way the answer covers the entire wing, at a minimum.
This is also the kind of thing a CAC is actually charged with.
The only time I've contacted NHQ as a cadet was in regards to membership info such as missing ID card or some such. Even then, it was first a call to the Squadron leadership, then a call to NHQ.
Back in my first few years in CAP, I've asked Susie Parker about a few things. A few times, I would ask for a specific reference in a pub on something, and she could not provide such a reference to substantiate the answer. Something to keep in mind.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
All problems should be resolved at the lowest possible level. The org chart isn't there for wallpaper.
If all 61,000 members contacted NHQ to answer questions, nothing would get done.
I have to agree.
The proper procedure here is to forward the question up the chain to the DCP and have that person either go up further or call
NHQ, then issue a position paper back to the wing. That way the answer covers the entire wing, at a minimum.
This is also the kind of thing a CAC is actually charged with.
i attempted contacting NHQ about the badge, because everyone i asked about it gave me mixed results so i was right back where i started before i asked anybody anyway. I actually got the idea of emailing NHQ from my previous C/CC who said he has done it multiple times about questions involving military awards. He was wreceivedieved her email from in the first place.
Quote
Second, unless you actually cite the specific question asked and the specific answer given, it's hard for use to even know if what she told you is applicable. Simply copying her contact info from the NHQ website isn't exactly an ICL.
The reason i only put her contact info on my last post because you asked who it was I emailed, not what was in my email. I would be more than willing to forward you the emareceivedieved from her if you just ask :]
I'm not saying that cadet timmy should call to see what the proper placement of his wing patch is.
But to ask why cadets are calling NHQ at all, only shows the value we (seniors) put on them as members of CAP. If you, a senior, can just pick up the phone and use whatever services are available at NHQ, cadets, as dues paying members of Civil Air Patrol, may also use those services.
There are things that obviously go through the chain of command. But any reason that a senior member can pick up the phone and call NHQ to get questions answered are just as valid if the member is a cadet.
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 08:03:48 PM
The reason i only put her contact info on my last post because you asked who it was I emailed, not what was in my email. I would be more than willing to forward you the emareceivedieved from her if you just ask
If you think it will help your case, post it here, however if it was purely Ms. Parker's opinion, absent the citation of an applicable regulation, then it won't likely change any minds.
As Hawk200 says, NHQ staffers are generally more than willing to try and help an offer an opinion, but in more than a few cases, what they respond, or post on the KB, is later show to be incorrect, premature, or simply outside their authority. I've personally sent a few corrections to the KB myself.
How this generally works is someone has a question not clearly stated in a reg, and they fish around to find an answer that suits their personal reality, and they move on. As long as that is acceptable to your local chain, good on 'ye, but that doesn't make it correct.
so i actually can't wear the badge on my uniform then?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2011, 08:06:17 PM
I'm not saying that cadet timmy should call to see what the proper placement of his wing patch is.
But to ask why cadets are calling NHQ at all, only shows the value we (seniors) put on them as members of CAP. If you, a senior, can just pick up the phone and use whatever services are available at NHQ, cadets, as dues paying members of Civil Air Patrol, may also use those services.
There are things that obviously go through the chain of command. But any reason that a senior member can pick up the phone and call NHQ to get questions answered are just as valid if the member is a cadet.
It's not just cadets. Senior members should also be using the chain of command rather than picking up the phone to call NHQ.
There's a very good chance that the CP, PD, ES, or whatever position, will have been asked the question before, and will have ready access to the correct answer.
We have 50 members in our squadron. I can count on one hand the number of folks who should be calling NHQ for anything.
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 08:29:23 PM
so i actually can't wear the badge on my uniform then?
No. The badges awarded for the current NRA program are not approved for wear on the CAP uniform.
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 08:31:36 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2011, 08:06:17 PM
I'm not saying that cadet timmy should call to see what the proper placement of his wing patch is.
But to ask why cadets are calling NHQ at all, only shows the value we (seniors) put on them as members of CAP. If you, a senior, can just pick up the phone and use whatever services are available at NHQ, cadets, as dues paying members of Civil Air Patrol, may also use those services.
There are things that obviously go through the chain of command. But any reason that a senior member can pick up the phone and call NHQ to get questions answered are just as valid if the member is a cadet.
It's not just cadets. Senior members should also be using the chain of command rather than picking up the phone to call NHQ.
There's a very good chance that the CP, PD, ES, or whatever position, will have been asked the question before, and will have ready access to the correct answer.
We have 50 members in our squadron. I can count on one hand the number of folks who should be calling NHQ for anything.
Exactly correct. In most cases it is something simple and people can't or won't read, in which case that's the whole point of downstream staff.
In cases involving policy or interpretation, only commanders can make those decisions, and should be involving their next in line to insure the answers are as complete as possible, and account for the largest AOR possible (respective to the question). You don't want people in different units saying they got different answers when they called as if NHQ was an AT&T Call Center. It defeats the purpose of having echelons of management, both from a coherence of message standpoint and a simple manpower at NHQ view.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 08:29:23 PM
so i actually can't wear the badge on my uniform then?
No. The badges awarded for the current NRA program are not approved for wear on the CAP uniform.
ok, well thanks for actually clarifying it for me. In that case i'm with the group of people who believe that cadets should be able to haha especially since cadets who earned the title marksman..shartshooter..etc in the past were eligable to wear the badge of the program back then.
I think most here agree with that, and there are several in this thread working to fix things, but until then, rules is rules.
Good news:
It was a normal day in Sharon Springs, Kansas, when a Union Pacific crew boarded a
loaded coal train for the long trek to Salina.
Bad news:
Just a few miles into the trip a wheel bearing became overheated and melted, letting a
metal support drop down and grind on the rail, creating white hot molten metal droppings spewing
down to the rail.
Good news:
A very alert crew noticed smoke about halfway back in the train
and immediately stopped the train in compliance with the rules
Bad news:
The train stopped with the hot wheel over a wooden bridge with creosote ties and trusses.
The crew tried to explain this to Union Pacific higher-ups but
were instructed not to move the train!
They were informed that Rules prohibited moving the train
when a part was found to be defective!
So...
Bridge and train caught on fire,
bridge burned, train burned,
bridge and train fell into river...
'REMEMBER, RULES IS RULES!'
(Don't ever let common sense get in the way of a good Disaster! )
So...
You're suggesting we melt down the NRA badges into replacement wheel bearings for trains?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 10:00:29 PM
So...
You're suggesting we melt down the NRA badges into replacement wheel bearings for trains?
That's all I got out of the post ;D >:D
Just kidding. I agree with Al's post, but I don't think it applies here. There isn't much being risked by "following the rules" in this situation (by not wearing the badge).
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2011, 03:59:42 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 01, 2011, 03:52:24 PM
Why would a cadet be contacting NHQ?
Why not? They are dues paying members just as you are, and have every right to the services NHQ provides. I'm sure most cadets have better questions than the "what time is the field trip my squadron is hosting" questions (from seniors) I had the opportunity to field.
All problems should be resolved at the lowest possible level. The org chart isn't there for wallpaper.
If all 61,000 members contacted NHQ to answer questions, nothing would get done.
Yep....but how many times do we get a "I just don't know" from those who are supposed to know?
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 08:29:23 PM
so i actually can't wear the badge on my uniform then?
Ask your squadron commander and follow his advice. That's what the chain of command is for.
Quote from: shlebz on August 01, 2011, 08:41:34 PMok, well thanks for actually clarifying it for me. In that case i'm with the group of people who believe that cadets should be able to haha especially since cadets who earned the title marksman..shartshooter..etc in the past were eligable to wear the badge of the program back then.
No, they weren't. The only NRA badge listed in 39-1 is a competition badge that had very similar requirements to DCM Marksmanship badges. It could take years to be awarded that particular badge. The only cadet I have ever known that had the badge listed in 39-1 had worked for three and a half years to get it (He was good, got it about a year faster than most). Your current marksmanship badge does not even remotely compare.
The wear of current NRA marksmanship badges seems to be more of "I have more bling than you!" Many people will wear things that aren't authorized, or in ways they aren't authorized just to show they have more than anyone else. It looks bad, and distinctly unprofessional. That lack of professionalism will make people ignore you far more than having a little less bling.
Just having badges don't make anyone any better than anyone else. Compete for the distinct badges, don't just settle for any badge.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
I think most here agree with that, and there are several in this thread working to fix things, but until then, rules is rules.
did you ever get a chance to look at what I sent you regarding this?
Sorry, response today for sure. Competing priorities and lack of attention.
Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac
N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC
Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing
NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.
In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.
The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.
Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.
"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.
"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."
The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.
Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.
Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."
He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."
No. They aren't. But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?
Are senior members allowed to participate in HAA's?
I don't see anything yea or nay.
Well, there's no authorization under the current plans for seniors to participate in firearms training, the language only authorizes cadets.
I'd say other HAA's would be on a per-activity basis.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 03:02:55 AM
Well, there's no authorization under the current plans for seniors to participate in firearms training, the language only authorizes cadets.
Seniors can wear certain DCM badges (which the only legal ones in the manual can only be earned through military competition), maybe the original writer of the manual thought that was fine so there was no need for seniors to earn anything from the NRA.
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 05, 2011, 02:39:25 AM
Are senior members allowed to participate in HAA's?
I don't see anything yea or nay.
Seeing as how the 52-16 doesn't govern senior member training outside of the CP track I'm not sure why it would have any authority on seniors participating in HAAs.
Just my .02 and I'm sure someone will set me straight shortly.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 02:25:44 AM
Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac (http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac)
N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC
Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing
NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.
In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.
The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.
Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.
"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.
"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."
The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.
Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.
Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."
He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."
No. They aren't. But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?
(http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/ (http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/))
EDITORIAL STAFF
Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter - Civil Air Patrol National Commander
Don R. Rowland - Executive Director
John Salvador - Assistant Executive Director
Julie M. DeBardelaben - Managing Editor
Steve Cox - Associate Editor
Barb Pribulick - Graphic Designer
Dan Bailey, Kristi Carr, Donna Harris, Jennifer S. Kornegay,
Minnie Lamberth, Mitzi Palmer, Jenn Rowell, Lenore Vickrey
Contributing Writers
how does that work? (the nation commander being on the editorial staff) and they miss something like that....
Quote from: shlebz on August 05, 2011, 11:15:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 02:25:44 AM
Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac (http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac)
N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC
Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing
NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.
In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.
The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.
Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.
"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.
"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."
The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.
Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.
Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."
He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."
No. They aren't. But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?
(http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/ (http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/))
EDITORIAL STAFF
Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter - Civil Air Patrol National Commander
Don R. Rowland - Executive Director
John Salvador - Assistant Executive Director
Julie M. DeBardelaben - Managing Editor
Steve Cox - Associate Editor
Barb Pribulick - Graphic Designer
Dan Bailey, Kristi Carr, Donna Harris, Jennifer S. Kornegay,
Minnie Lamberth, Mitzi Palmer, Jenn Rowell, Lenore Vickrey
Contributing Writers
how does that work? (the nation commander being on the editorial staff) and they miss something like that....
They are likely taking a note from "ma-blue".
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110708-068.pdf (http://www.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110708-068.pdf)
Make a note of page 3 where it lists SECAF and CSAF
All talk of the NRA courses aside, I was under the impression that at one point in time CAP cadets (and the sly SM TAC officer) could qualify at base ranges during encampment and earn the Air Force marksmanship ribbon. (But this was back when live ammo was used in BMT instead of simulators...)
If any marksmanship item is reauthorized it ought to be this.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 27, 2011, 06:13:21 PM
All talk of the NRA courses aside, I was under the impression that at one point in time CAP cadets (and the sly SM TAC officer) could qualify at base ranges during encampment and earn the Air Force marksmanship ribbon. (But this was back when live ammo was used in BMT instead of simulators...)
If any marksmanship item is reauthorized it ought to be this.
At one time the AFI's did allow for cadets to qualify for the M-9 pistol (IIRC) and earn the marksmanship ribbon. But that has changed.
Since we have not control of the AFI.....and no way of getting the USAF to give us any range time....I don't see that happeing.
This is very good reason for CAP to have a marksmanship program. (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45655) Every other cadet program has one. We should too.
CAP does "permit" marksmanship training, but small arms training in CAP has even less emphasis that the "Real" Air Force.....which is to say, not much. I believe that this is primarily the result of the CAP archetype S/M who reviles all things military, and is in denial that we are in fact, a Paramilitary Organization. ( You can feel them squirming in anguish right now about that description, can't you?) I suggest we only provide marksmanship training to Cadets ( or Seniors for that matter) who may want to survive a close encounter of the worst kind, and let the rest act as human shields, relying on the kindness of evil men and enemies. That's worked so well in the past.....
As for the NRA badge, we know that it was intended to be worn with pride on the the Cadet Uniform. If you have the shooting iron, pin it on until someone has the guts to write a regulation that declares it against the rules, instead of playing lawyer ball with a bunch of bedwetters who read the regulations with the mindset of turning CAP into a gelded pony.
Major Lord
Well, there ya go.
Unfortunately some people believe we should not offer marksmanship training. But while we do, let's do it right and follow the regs. The current regs do not authorize the current NRA awards to be worn on the CAP uniform. If we choose to ignore that, then we choose to ignore other bling or misconstrue the regs to make them say whatever we want. The regs do not specifically say that I cannot wear my Army and NRA marksmanship badges, so I guess I can wear them.
I'll go right now to pin my Army Expert badge on my CAP uniform (like I saw an encampment C/CC do) along with my NRA medals. After all, I earned them. Major Lord said I could.
The regs do specifically authorize the NRA badge- the NRA just changed the name and updated the program. If the manufacturer of our name tapes decided to change the name to "coral" would we have to stop wearing name tapes, even though the color was the same? Also, we don't offer Marksmanship training; all of our training comes from qualified organizations, we just enable it. If you want to emulate a C/CC go right ahead my friend. Also, since your handle is "dad2-4" I am going to assume that you are a Senior Member, so you would never have been permitted to wear the NRA device. ( that's in there, really, you can check!) If you take a look around the Cadet community, you will find the NRA badge is ubiquitous; "Army Expert badges" are not.
Major Lord
1. Sorry you missed the sarcasm sign in my last post. Not meant as an attack.
2. While the current CAP regs do authorize "an" NRA award, they do not authorize the NRA awards currently available. NRA changed their program while CAP did not change the regs. If someone earned the award mentioned in our regs then they can certainly wear it.
3. Saying that "we don't offer Marksmanship training; all of our training comes from qualified organizations, we just enable it" is just semantics. We allow firearms training within the scope of CP which must be conducted by appropriate personnel.
Its funny that so many members can read a prohibition into the construction of the Regulations ( Regs, designed to allow NRA awards specifically) and will fight to the death to wear our totally unauthorized U.S. Flag patch on their shoulder. My point about the program being permitted rather than established is far from just a semantic argument. There are many in CAP ( The Good Guys) Who want CAP to create and "own" our own program, rather than relying on the training officer from the Moosespit Alabama Police Department, or some guy off the street with an NRA basic rifle instructor qualification. I never miss sarcasm, in fact I thrive on it. There are many in CAP who hate firearms to the center of their very beings (The Commie pinko, bedwetters) You will know them from their bumper stickers.....
Major Lord