CAP Talk

Hello, is the white short sleeved aviator shirt supposed to have military creases on the sleeves?

Thanks!

"military creases" is not the same thing as creasing the sleeves.

military creases is where the they fold a quarter of the shirt vertical through the pockets and create two creases down the front of the shift.

DO NOT ASK FOR MILITARY CREASES!

But to answer your question....the sleeves should be creased.....the crease should run from the back of the epaulet to the center of the sleeve.

Thank you :) I have a "new in package" white aviator shirt and plan on taking it in this Wednesday to the dry cleaners. I'll tell them only crease the sleeves.

39-1 Says the "Sleeve crease is centered on epaulet.", but only in the same paragraphs when speaking of the AF Blue shirt. Creases are not even mentioned anywhere the aviator shirt is. The few photos of uniforms in 39-1 showing the aviator shirt, creases are not evident of visible either.

For purposes of uniformity and presentation, ironed with creased sleeves would be my choice.

But the creases centered vs starting at the back side of the epaulet are always a challenge, I end up having to do it myself, as the commercial cleaners darn near always do it the natural way with the cut. Despite that I have blatant creases when  turn them in, and make note on the order. I'll usually get back the stuff with one shirt done totally wrong, or one sleeve on each of two out of three shirts, done right and the other done wrong. Either way, I'm fixing two sleeves.

Echoing what others say: do not ask for military creases.  Just a good pressing will make your aviator shirt look good.

Suggestion: If we absolutely HAVE to have greys, why not replace the white aviator shirt with a blue airline-cut one, still made by Van Heusen and still not what the AF uses?

(http://garffshirts.com/images/products/display/KurtsPhotoShoot017a.jpg)

(http://garffshirts.com/images/products/display/KurtsPhotoShoot003.jpg)

With CAP insignia and STANDARDISED dark-grey trousers, those would look a sight better than the mall cop grey/white.

(http://www.quickuniforms.com/images/DG-PT01.gif)

I'm not suggesting the striping.

Better yet, the Air Force should just allow nicely trimmed goatees now. Starfleet does! ;) See the last Star Trek movie :) then I wouldnt need the white aviator shirt with gray slacks.

Beards are an old Naval tradition, even though the USN/USCG don't allow it.

(note the RCN Admiral standing behind Queen Elizabeth II)

(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/06/30/queen-navy-392-rtr2fx5y.jpg)

Not likely to be allowed by the USAF, though I see where you're coming from. I know a lot of members whose only disqualification for the USAF blues is facial hair.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 27, 2010, 10:20:38 PM
Echoing what others say: do not ask for military creases.  Just a good pressing will make your aviator shirt look good.

Suggestion: If we absolutely HAVE to have greys, why not replace the white aviator shirt with a blue airline-cut one, still made by Van Heusen and still not what the AF uses?

(http://garffshirts.com/images/products/display/KurtsPhotoShoot017a.jpg)

(http://garffshirts.com/images/products/display/KurtsPhotoShoot003.jpg)

With CAP insignia and STANDARDISED dark-grey trousers, those would look a sight better than the mall cop grey/white.

(http://www.quickuniforms.com/images/DG-PT01.gif)

I'm not suggesting the striping.

I could get behind that uniform, but it'll never happen.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 27, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Beards are an old Naval tradition, even though the USN/USCG don't allow it.

(note the RCN Admiral standing behind Queen Elizabeth II)

(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/06/30/queen-navy-392-rtr2fx5y.jpg)

Not likely to be allowed by the USAF, though I see where you're coming from. I know a lot of members whose only disqualification for the USAF blues is facial hair.

(http://yosoylachamuca.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/thomas-riker.jpg)

I had a goatee like this one then shaved it off last summer and went to just a mustache. But I'm growing it back now. I prefer to have a goatee. Since I'm new to CAP I dont have much in the way of ribbons, badges, rank epaulettes to wear the Air Force uniform. Perhaps in a year or two :) This coming Feb 18th I'll be a Senior Member for 6 months.

This is me in a WWII uniform I put together for re-enacting. Taken Oct 2010.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/AmericanWWIIUniform/mewwiiuniform.jpg)

And me a year ago with the goatee.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/AmericanWWIIUniform/brad_goatee_60.jpg)

Quote from: indygreg on December 27, 2010, 10:44:49 PM
I could get behind that uniform, but it'll never happen.

Because it has the verboten colour of blue?

If a member were to wear the corporate uniforms, I still want to see a clean shave and a haircut within Mil Reg. I know that is not the case so I don't say anything at all, nor am I in the position to tell someone that being a butter bar. I just think a uniform should have a clean cut look.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 27, 2010, 10:56:31 PM
If a member were to wear the corporate uniforms, I still want to see a clean shave and a haircut within Mil Reg. I know that is not the case so I don't say anything at all, nor am I in the position to tell someone that being a butter bar. I just think a uniform should have a clean cut look.

I think if you're in your late 20s and over a nicely trimmed goatee with a short and proper hair cut is still a clean cut look. I was told by a retired Air Force major that the hairless chin was because of skin oils mixing into your chin hairs and combined with an oxygen mask that the combination was really flamable if you're a pilot. So perhaps the prohibition for pilots only that wear oxygen masks :)

Quote from: BradM on December 27, 2010, 11:03:54 PM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 27, 2010, 10:56:31 PM
If a member were to wear the corporate uniforms, I still want to see a clean shave and a haircut within Mil Reg. I know that is not the case so I don't say anything at all, nor am I in the position to tell someone that being a butter bar. I just think a uniform should have a clean cut look.

I think if you're in your late 20s and over a nicely trimmed goatee with a short and proper hair cut is still a clean cut look. I was told by a retired Air Force major that the hairless chin was because of skin oils mixing into your chin hairs and combined with an oxygen mask that the combination was really flamable if you're a pilot. So perhaps the prohibition for pilots only that wear oxygen masks :)

I've heard the same story, and it's just not true. However, facial hair WILL affect the ability of the mask to properly seal. That was one of the reasons for the Navy doing away with them.

As for corporate uniforms, which looks "worse" - someone with a neat beard, or someone who is overweight?

In my opinion, it depends on the individual regarding goatees and or beards vs overweight. Some people who are at a good weight actually look better with a beard or goatee than with no facial hair. Some look better with just the mustache, some with a goatee. For me I think I look the best with a goatee, then just the mustache. Ive had an almost full beard and I prefer the goatee better. I vote at a good weight with a nicely trimmed beard looks better than clean shaven and overweight.

Quote from: BradM on December 27, 2010, 11:32:39 PM
In my opinion, it depends on the individual regarding goatees and or beards vs overweight. Some people who are at a good weight actually look better with a beard or goatee than with no facial hair. Some look better with just the mustache, some with a goatee. For me I think I look the best with a goatee, then just the mustache. Ive had an almost full beard and I prefer the goatee better. I vote at a good weight with a nicely trimmed beard looks better than clean shaven and overweight.

Which is easier to control? While in a uniform, you should try to look as uniform as possible should you not? Sometimes weight is not an option.Wearing a beard/goatee is an option to look un-uniform from everyone else.

The original reasons for not allowing beards and goatees is the same reasoning with short hair on the head. Long hair keeps pro-masks from sealing around your head, same with facial hair, however having a short mustache doesn't affect the seal of a pro-mask. Also short hair lends less for ticks and lice to get a hold of.

Thank you.

I'm 5'10", 180 lb, 36" waist, with a full beard.

I have a beard because shaving irritates more than I'm willing to put up with on a day-to-day basis. I have a really tough beard, and every barber who has given me a shave has told me not to bother to come back for a second shave.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 27, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Beards are an old Naval tradition, even though the USN/USCG don't allow it.
(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/06/30/queen-navy-392-rtr2fx5y.jpg)

So are "wet" ships.

Quote from: SarDragon on December 27, 2010, 11:50:06 PM
Thank you.

I'm 5'10", 180 lb, 36" waist, with a full beard.

I have a beard because shaving irritates more than I'm willing to put up with on a day-to-day basis. I have a really tough beard, and every barber who has given me a shave has told me not to bother to come back for a second shave.

If I shave everyday on my neck I get a red razor burn rash. So at the most I shave every other day. That seems to work for me. Lately I've been shaving Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 27, 2010, 11:44:17 PM

Quote from: BradM on December 27, 2010, 11:32:39 PM
In my opinion, it depends on the individual regarding goatees and or beards vs overweight. Some people who are at a good weight actually look better with a beard or goatee than with no facial hair. Some look better with just the mustache, some with a goatee. For me I think I look the best with a goatee, then just the mustache. Ive had an almost full beard and I prefer the goatee better. I vote at a good weight with a nicely trimmed beard looks better than clean shaven and overweight.

Which is easier to control? While in a uniform, you should try to look as uniform as possible should you not? Sometimes weight is not an option.Wearing a beard/goatee is an option to look un-uniform from everyone else.

The original reasons for not allowing beards and goatees is the same reasoning with short hair on the head. Long hair keeps pro-masks from sealing around your head, same with facial hair, however having a short mustache doesn't affect the seal of a pro-mask. Also short hair lends less for ticks and lice to get a hold of.

Regarding looking uniform. I dont see a difference between having clean shaven officers serving alongside mustached officers to be any different than clean shaven officers serving with nicely trimmed mustached, goateed, and full bearded officers.

How does a direct question about pressing a shirt involve beards?

Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2010, 12:13:31 AM
How does a direct question about pressing a shirt involve beards?

Because I bought the white aviator shirt and will be wearing the aviator shirt/gray slacks combo because for 2011 I'm re-growing my goatee. But If I could I'd like to wear the Air Force uniform with the goatee.  Since I'm new to CAP wearing the AF uniform all I have to put on it at the moment is the U.S. collar insignia, the name tag and the membership ribbon. 
In mid February I will be a SM for 6 mos so I hope to become a 2nd Lt. then. By the end of 2011 I am hoping to have added at least the basic PD badge, Observer wings, and a few more ribbons. I was thinking since I dont have a lot of "bling" on my AF uniform at the moment I could regrow my goatee and wear the white aviator shirt/gray slacks combo and I wanted to wear it right. So the goatee and the white aviator shirt are interelated for me and I started the topic. :)

Just a correction, even though you aren't wearing the AF Style uniform, Senior Members without grade wear "CAP" cutouts instead of "US" cutouts on the Service Blue uniform.

Quote from: spacecommand on December 28, 2010, 01:55:11 AM
Just a correction, even though you aren't wearing the AF Style uniform, Senior Members without grade wear "CAP" cutouts instead of "US" cutouts on the Service Blue uniform.

I'll have to look that up. I know you have to wear the CAP cutouts on the shirt but this is the first I heard of wearing it on the service coat as well for Senior Members without grade. The next time I shave my goatee and go back to just a mustache it wont matter anyway. I'll be either a 2nd Lt or a 1st Lt by then :)

QuoteLapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP
insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade. Insignia is
placed halfway up the seam, resting on but not over it. Bottom of insignia is parallel with the ground.

^ 39-1 page 16 note 2.

I can understand a lot of SMWOG uniform items can be unclear at times.  For example I'm glad you didn't mention wearing blank epaulets...

We're back on this topic again after just a few months.

The answer to the thread though was to have the short sleeve white aviator shirt sleeves creased the way the AF blue short sleeve shirt sleeves are creased. Pressed and creased for a more professional look.

I was wondering about that since I am switching from the AF blues uniform to the white aviator shirt/gray slacks for 2011. Unless I go to an encampment and the BDUs are required for Senior staff? Then I would go back to just the mustache for a time...

BTW, FWIW, the 'stache in the WWII uni pic is out of reg for CAP. It's too wide.

Hi Guys,

I'm thinking about getting into the CAP and really enjoy the information on this site. Any suggestions for a newby?

Quote from: SarDragon on December 28, 2010, 02:37:52 AM
BTW, FWIW, the 'stache in the WWII uni pic is out of reg for CAP. It's too wide.

When I went to the Calif. Wing Conference in Santa Maria out of all the officers there only one person mentioned that. My Squadron Commander mentioned that too and for a time I did reduce it. Then on Dec. 13th I decided to grow my goatee back and have it until at least Summer of 2011. If I go to the summer encampment (which would be my first encampment) and wear BDUs then I would probably go back to just the mustache. Do Senior staff wear BDUs mostly at encampment?

Quote from: ItalianFiremanAC130 on December 28, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm thinking about getting into the CAP and really enjoy the information on this site. Any suggestions for a newby?

See if you can sign into eServices. Then start working on Level 1.

See:
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/level_i_foundations.cfm (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/level_i_foundations.cfm)

Quote from: ItalianFiremanAC130 on December 28, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm thinking about getting into the CAP and really enjoy the information on this site. Any suggestions for a newby?

Yes, find a unit near you and discuss their local operations with the commander - that is where you will find the best information
in regards to CAP locally, which is really where things happen.

Centering the crease on the epaulet is dumb, and that rule should be changed in 39-1 immediately.  I question if the person who wrote that rule has ever worn/prepared a military shirt in their life...  or bought *ANY* shirt at the store, ever, to see where the natural crease falls, naturally (terminates at the back of the epaulet).  I suspect the rule is written this way so that wing patches (centered under the epaulet) would be creased in the center... but since wing patches aren't worn on blues anymore, let's get with the times, eh?

--That said, BDU's don't naturally crease at the shoulder seam either...


The beard is forbidden in the military because it prevents a clean seal with the gas mask (amongst other traditional reasons).

I think mythbusters did the 'flammable oxygen mask plus facial hair' thing once, but I can't remember what their finding was.  I know they burned the face off a dummy but not sure if it was under 'normal' conditions, or after they lubed it up with accelerant after the normal test failed...

The mythbusters did say the only way to get the combustion was under non normal circumstances. But they did say the myth was plausible.

I have worn a real military uniform long enough to know where the crease goes, and I always iron the shirts myself, for the simple reason that no, dry cleaners cannot get it right. The crease goes from the center of the epaulet. Every branch that I have ever seen in a short sleeve  uniform or even long sleeve uniform without a jacket has always had the crease in the middle of the epaulet.

Facial hair has already been done on a few threads very recently. No beards/goatees has been a military standard, not for tradition at all. If it were tradition, all officers atleast would wear a pointy goatee with a mustache that has points too(I know it's a joke). The reason for the facial hair NOGO is because of pro-masks won't seal around facial hair, also for the same reason that hair is to be short, long hair gets dirty faster and harbors lice and ticks and fleas much much much easier than short hair does.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 28, 2010, 07:57:22 PMFacial hair has already been done on a few threads very recently. No beards/goatees has been a military standard, not for tradition at all. If it were tradition, all officers atleast would wear a pointy goatee with a mustache that has points too(I know it's a joke).

The General Custer look or the Musketeer look? :) The Army now allows Calvary hats correct? The General Custer look would be back in style ;)

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 28, 2010, 07:57:22 PMThe reason for the facial hair NOGO is because of pro-masks won't seal around facial hair, also for the same reason that hair is to be short, long hair gets dirty faster and harbors lice and ticks and fleas much much much easier than short hair does.

Do we wear pro-masks in CAP while in a blue service coat? :)

(http://www.warfoto.com/IMG_0540b.jpg)

The pointed mustache and pointed goatee would look great in the new Army blues with calvary hat :)

Quote from: BradM on December 28, 2010, 08:26:33 PM
Do we wear pro-masks in CAP while in a blue service coat? :)

Doesn't matter if we do or not. Does the military wear pro-masks while in their service coats? No they don't.

Its my opinion the military and Hollywood think that only the bad guys wear goatees and beards while in military uniforms :)

(http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/image.php?u=156298&dateline=1272232714)

OK guys... let's get this straight:

It's CAValry, not CALvary! (The latter is where Christ was crucified.) You might get those 'yellowlegs' slightly upset!  ;D

Yes sir! Sorry about that! :)

Quote from: spacecommand on December 28, 2010, 01:55:11 AM
Just a correction, even though you aren't wearing the AF Style uniform, Senior Members without grade wear "CAP" cutouts instead of "US" cutouts on the Service Blue uniform.

What about on the collar of the grey/white "mall cop" uniform?  I've never actually seen that.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 29, 2010, 10:58:00 PM

Quote from: spacecommand on December 28, 2010, 01:55:11 AM
Just a correction, even though you aren't wearing the AF Style uniform, Senior Members without grade wear "CAP" cutouts instead of "US" cutouts on the Service Blue uniform.

What about on the collar of the grey/white "mall cop" uniform?  I've never actually seen that.

That's one of those wierd things. It doesn't completely mirror the blue uniform (which requires them).

Some people think that the blank slides constitute "rank insignia" for the corporate. Not really accurate, because the blank slides do not display a rank insignia, and there is no rank insignia for "no rank."

That's another thing that could stand to change. Seriously thinking about posting my formerly yearly thread of "What would you like to see done with uniforms?"

Since the corporate uniform is being phased out. I'd like to see the white shirt/blue air force pants w/air force belt combo be substituted for the gray slacks and where I can wear a goatee. :) Also, if a white air force cap is found you can wear that with the CAP cap eagle. Like one of these:

(http://auctionsound.s3.amazonaws.com/clients/consigntocash/inventory/10221/1293334877.7043.jpg)

Quote from: BradM on December 30, 2010, 03:37:08 AM
Since the corporate uniform is being phased out. I'd like to see the white shirt/blue air force pants w/air force belt combo be substituted for the gray slacks and where I can wear a goatee. :) Also, if a white air force cap is found you can wear that with the CAP cap eagle. Like one of these:

(http://auctionsound.s3.amazonaws.com/clients/consigntocash/inventory/10221/1293334877.7043.jpg)

Doubt you'll find one of those, they're an old design.

That picture is seriously wrong. The device is an enlisted device, but the farts and darts are for officers.

Don't go trying to create something out of uniform components. That got us into trouble in the first place.

Just don't mess poke the lion with a stick. Let the top brass do the uniforms and comply with what they say.

Even though it's incorrect, I've seen the blank grey slides worn with both the AF blue and the mall cop uniform by SMWOG and it doesn't look half bad.

BradM, where did you find that hat? That's an odd combination - a white hat with an enlisted cap device and field grade officer farts and darts.

Also, I agree with you on the blue/white (I hate the grey/white) but blue, of any shade, ever since the CSU, is something that National is seeming to shy away from like a rattlesnake with a bad attitude.  I think it's based on perception that the Air Force might get ticked off with anything blue (airline uniform/law enforcement shades included) rather than any reality.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2010, 05:58:56 AM
Even though it's incorrect, I've seen the blank grey slides worn with both the AF blue and the mall cop uniform by SMWOG and it doesn't look half bad.

I agree - it looks all bad.

And please stop referring to the whites that way...

Quote from: CyBorg on December 27, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
...RCN Admiral..

Nothing "royal" about it...linky (http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms/0/0_eng.asp)...

shorning...technically you are right.  Since 1968 Canada has not had a separate army, navy or air force.  Even the term "Canadian Navy" is incorrect.  The proper term is Canadian Forces Maritime Command (along with Land Force Command and Air Command).  However, I have not talked to one serving CF member who thinks that unification was a good idea.  The CF has steadily been moving toward "de-unification" ever since the three "branches" got back distinctive uniforms in the mid-'80s.  The most recent move has been the "navy" getting back its pre-1968 officers' rank insignia:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/acf-apfc/Insig/navy-marine-eng.asp

The vast majority of CF personnel I've talked to hated the green "gas station attendant" uniform, especially the sailors and airmen.

Further on, there is a motion in Parliament to formally return to the pre-'68 designations:

http://www.rcn-rcaf.blogspot.com/

Sometimes I wonder what would happen here if we decided to try and unify our armed forces and outfit them all with the same uniform.

Eclipse: Point taken and there will be no more Paul Blart movie references WRT the aviator whites.

However, I'm sure you will remember, as I do, the various other less-than-complimentary references to some of our past uniforms:

Maroon shoulder boards/berry boards
Ultramarine jumpsuit/Smurf suit
Corporate Service Uniform/T**y P****a uniform (TPU)
Green fatigues/pickle suit

Just a bit of my peevishness over having the CSU taken away for no good reason that I can see, and NHQ's seeming aversion to blue, bubbling over.

It was never meant to denigrate anyone who wears the G/W combination, either through choice or necessity.  Several members of my own squadron wear that combination and serve admirably.

I apologise for any offence.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
blah, blah, blah...

Thanks for the lesson...however, I work with the CF daily... ::)

I wear the aviator white shirt when I fly for a major airline.  Does that make me a mall cop?  :)

Quote from: Thrash on December 30, 2010, 01:10:03 PM
I wear the aviator white shirt when I fly for a major airline.  Does that make me a mall cop?  :)

No, just a glorified bus driver flying around drunken tourist  ;D

Quote from: shorning on December 30, 2010, 06:53:27 AM

Quote from: CyBorg on December 27, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
...RCN Admiral..

Nothing "royal" about it...linky (http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms/0/0_eng.asp)...

If you want to get picky, it's not the Canadian Navy either...it's the Canadian Forces...all one big happy family...no RCAF either.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
shorning...technically you are right.  Since 1968 Canada has not had a separate army, navy or air force.  Even the term "Canadian Navy" is incorrect.  The proper term is Canadian Forces Maritime Command (along with Land Force Command and Air Command).  However, I have not talked to one serving CF member who thinks that unification was a good idea.  The CF has steadily been moving toward "de-unification" ever since the three "branches" got back distinctive uniforms in the mid-'80s.  The most recent move has been the "navy" getting back its pre-1968 officers' rank insignia:

When I applied for ROTP (Regular Officer Training Program...essentially the Canadian version of an academy appointment) back in the early '90s, the term was clearly "Canadian Forces", and my interview was with three officers, one Naval, on Air, one Land, and they each had distinctive uniforms...the Naval guy even went by "Leftenant Commander"...They all use the naval-type stripes for rank (officer wise)...[darn]ed migraines kept me out. 

Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
Eclipse: Point taken and there will be no more Paul Blart movie references WRT the aviator whites.

However, I'm sure you will remember, as I do, the various other less-than-complimentary references to some of our past uniforms:

Maroon shoulder boards/berry boards
Ultramarine jumpsuit/Smurf suit
Corporate Service Uniform/T**y P****a uniform (TPU)
Green fatigues/pickle suit

Just a bit of my peevishness over having the CSU taken away for no good reason that I can see, and NHQ's seeming aversion to blue, bubbling over.

It was never meant to denigrate anyone who wears the G/W combination, either through choice or necessity.  Several members of my own squadron wear that combination and serve admirably.

I apologise for any offence.

None taken - it is more a guard against things like that which tend to stick.  I've also been an opponent of referring to the CSU in any other way (since the connotation is also counterproductive to anyone who wants to keep it).

I thought the CSU with the jacket looks really good, nice clean and professional. The stretch that USAF made about the very rare uniform that it comes close to looking like was a bit of a far one. I think we do need to find one that looks good and USAF will ok. If your only option is corporate uniforms with the current uniform with no jacket, there is nothing you can do about any formal occasions. I don't like that idea, it makes those who do wear the Corporate uniforms even more singled out. I mean what can they do, wear a tux with no awards or anything? Doesn't that seem a little wrong? Everyone is valuable to CAP and they are valuable enough to get a good looking uniform. One of the most inspiring members of my squadron can only wear the Corporate uniforms, and he has nothing that makes me think he feels valued and part of the organization. I know he feels valued, or I hope he does, we tell him all the time how valuable he is and how much we appreciate what he does for us. I just fell like he deserves more than a short sleeved shirt with grey pants. He mentors me and provides so much knowledge to me that I can't not feel bad for what the only thing he can wear in a service dress uniform. What can we as members come up with for them? Even if we were to find a nice looking suit that is professional, solid color, and with a military looking cut to it that we can change the buttons on to be the CAP crest buttons, and allow them to wear their ribbons on.

What say we turn this around and work together and then push it up the line to get something that looks good?

I want to keep the CSU or a variant as much as anyone else, but I also don't measure the value of my service by which uniform I do (or can't) wear.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2010, 05:49:13 PM
I want to keep the CSU or a variant as much as anyone else, but I also don't measure the value of my service by which uniform I do (or can't) wear.

I know you don't and I never said anyone does. It is just a matter of showing you that we value you enough to give you a good looking uniform.

I was thinking maybe a two button suit with the CAP Crest buttons with the gray epaulet slides, the gray name plate, the white aviator shirt CAP cutouts on the lapel of the jacket and a blue and red tie, just like the one VG has with a low cut lapel. For formal occasions, remove the name plate leave one button undone add mini medals and a bow tie. I think this would look rather good if done right, and I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there is no USAF uniform that has only two buttons and a low cut lapel.

I would also like to see them have a nice service cap that would be optional.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 30, 2010, 03:52:07 AM

Don't go trying to create something out of uniform components. That got us into trouble in the first place.

I was answering Hawk200's question. Not meaning to wear it around like that...

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 30, 2010, 03:52:07 AM"Seriously thinking about posting my formerly yearly thread of "What would you like to see done with uniforms?""

Oh! You're Hawk200! ;)

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 30, 2010, 03:56:13 AM
Just don't mess poke the lion with a stick. Let the top brass do the uniforms and comply with what they say.

I was just putting an opinion out there from Hawk200's question.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 30, 2010, 03:52:07 AM"Seriously thinking about posting my formerly yearly thread of "What would you like to see done with uniforms?""

Quote from: BradM on December 30, 2010, 10:33:20 PM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 30, 2010, 03:56:13 AM
Just don't mess poke the lion with a stick. Let the top brass do the uniforms and comply with what they say.

I was just putting an opinion out there from Hawk200's question.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 30, 2010, 03:52:07 AM"Seriously thinking about posting my formerly yearly thread of "What would you like to see done with uniforms?""

I didn't mean that you shouldn't try to come up with a new uniform or anything. I think we need to come up with a nice corporate jacket.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 30, 2010, 11:42:36 PMI didn't mean that you shouldn't try to come up with a new uniform or anything. I think we need to come up with a nice corporate jacket.

I'm all for that if it means I could wear it with my goatee. :) I always have the option to shave it off and go to the mustache in a 10 minute interval but it takes 6-8 weeks to have it grow back the way I like it. I may not want to shave it off at a particular event. Though I expect to shave it off at least one more time within the next 2 years. Perhaps up to 3 more times, but less is better :)

I, OTOH, do not expect to ever again be clean-shaven, unless medical circumstances require it.

So then lets get something together for a service jacket and send it up the chain.

When the CSU was killed, a few of use started working on a suitable corporate jacket. The AF came down and said no military styled corporate jacket would be permitted. That effectively ended the work on it.

Wow, that bites. Now I don't know what to think we should do.

Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2010, 03:51:47 AM
When the CSU was killed, a few of use started working on a suitable corporate jacket. The AF came down and said no military styled corporate jacket would be permitted.

When?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 03:54:57 AM
Wow, that bites. Now I don't know what to think we should do.

I guess I'll have to go dressed up as Marko Ramius then in a Soviet Navy Captain's uniform ;)

(http://static.amctv.com/img/movienights/dvdtv/redoctober/dvdtv_red_october_main.jpg)

Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2010, 03:51:47 AM
When the CSU was killed, a few of use started working on a suitable corporate jacket. The AF came down and said no military styled corporate jacket would be permitted. That effectively ended the work on it.

When did the AF come down on it?  I don't recall this being the case.  The thread kinda petered out but a proposal was done up by highspeedlowdrag but we have had a change of Wing Commander so I don't know what the status is (we are in the same wing)

Quote from: cap235629 on December 31, 2010, 04:19:59 AM

Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2010, 03:51:47 AM
When the CSU was killed, a few of use started working on a suitable corporate jacket. The AF came down and said no military styled corporate jacket would be permitted. That effectively ended the work on it.

When did the AF come down on it?  I don't recall this being the case.  The thread kinda petered out but a proposal was done up by highspeedlowdrag but we have had a change of Wing Commander so I don't know what the status is (we are in the same wing)

What did it look like?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9282.0

For some reason, NHQ seems to think that the only "safe" corporate uniform is grey, grey and grey and that blue is to be avoided like a vampire avoids a wooden stake.

Even a blue shirt would look better with the grey trousers.

I've always thought that a dark-blue airline type uniform would look good for CAP.

(http://www.crewoutfitters.com/en/images/i/NAVY_JACKET_PANTS.jpg)

For the ladies:

(http://www.crewoutfitters.com/en/images/i/femuniform.jpg)

An off the shelf set like this, no sleeve striping, CAP ribbons, badges and buttons, current blazer nameplate with rank affixed, instant distinctive uniform with 0% USAF content.

Or for double-breasted:

(http://www.armstrongaviationclothing.com/images/9014bb.jpg)

Keep the current black A2 leather jacket or blue flight jacket as an outergarment.

For a sweater, police-issue, dark blue or black, without the police blingage, CAP epaulettes, maybe the CSU brushed-silver nameplate:

(http://www.imagefirstuniforms.com/images/products/thumbnails/00461.jpg)

Again, ZERO military content.

The only quasi-military item I could see would be USPHS's service cap but with the CAP flight cap badge:

(http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/images/blkmengarrisoncap.jpg)

Probably just vanity and chasing after wind since it seems to be grey or nothing.

Quote from: BradM on December 31, 2010, 04:13:59 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 03:54:57 AM
Wow, that bites. Now I don't know what to think we should do.

I guess I'll have to go dressed up as Marko Ramius then in a Soviet Navy Captain's uniform ;)

(http://static.amctv.com/img/movienights/dvdtv/redoctober/dvdtv_red_october_main.jpg)

If I look half as cool as Sean Connery at that age, I'll be happy.

Quote from: indygreg on December 31, 2010, 12:58:51 PM

Quote from: BradM on December 31, 2010, 04:13:59 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 03:54:57 AM
Wow, that bites. Now I don't know what to think we should do.

I guess I'll have to go dressed up as Marko Ramius then in a Soviet Navy Captain's uniform ;)

(http://static.amctv.com/img/movienights/dvdtv/redoctober/dvdtv_red_october_main.jpg)

If I look half as cool as Sean Connery at that age, I'll be happy.

+1 on that:
(http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/actors_films_images/Sir_Sean_Connery_wearing_Scottish_kilt.jpg)

I was thinking of a regular suit cut blue jacket. Low cut lapel, with all of the CAP bling that you have earned. Kind of like this.
[img alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=361[/img]
I know, the medals are disproportionate, and so is everything else, I am just not very good with computer image editors at all. There is a couple of nice things that take the USAF distinguish-ability out of the equation, there are only two buttons, which I would use the CAP crest buttons for, the really low cut lapels, the CAP Cutouts, the grey nameplate and epaulets. I would love to see a service cap for it, and make the whole thing a different shade of blue. Also, you can easily convert it for formal wear, add a bow tie, remove the name plate, add the CAP Seal, and apply mini medals, and undo the bottom button, and you have something that looks nice for formal occasions. Also use the white aviator shirt, and you have a whole set of uniforms, short and long sleeve shirt combo, service jacket combo, and a formal uniform. I would wear it.

Also, the tie is supposed to resemble the one VG has for sale.

Here's my question, what's wrong with the CAP blazer combo? It doesn't require spending a bunch of extra money for a special coat since it's a plain dark blue civilian blazer and the gray pants that anyone who wears corporate should already have. It allows you to show your grade and even your state or region.

Seriously, why are we trying to reinvent the wheel over and over?

To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

Ok, so instead of creating a whole new uniform which will cost a lot of money, why not put together a proposal to add ribbons to the blazer in some way. And the blazer is allowed one mini medal when being substituted for the mess dress.

This has already been beaten into a slow and painful death.

Quote from: EMT-83 on December 31, 2010, 04:22:32 PM
This has already been beaten into a slow and painful death.

Yes, yes it has. But of course this wouldn't be CAPTalk if we didn't beat dead horses on a regular basis. Although I think now I'm going to just get the badge for the blazer and wear that to the TXWG conference just to show that we have a suitable corporate dress uniform and don't need to make any more uniforms.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt that as a legitimate reason, especially considering how often this same discussion pops up.

There have been loads upon loads of really good ideas for uniforms that looked nothing like the CSU but still looked good. However, nothing gets done. Either posters here think that this forum is a direct line to the BoG and their proposal will just automatically be adopted; or they're thinking that they don't need to do anything, it's somebody else's job.

It's a known fact that people would rather complain than change. Seems like the newest thing seems to be to complain about desired change that doesn't happen. I guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

Quote from: jeders on December 31, 2010, 04:18:28 PM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

Ok, so instead of creating a whole new uniform which will cost a lot of money, why not put together a proposal to add ribbons to the blazer in some way.

Because a ribbon rack on a civilian jacket does look right.

Quote from: jeders on December 31, 2010, 04:18:28 PM
And the blazer is allowed one mini medal when being substituted for the mess dress.

Yes, it is.  In the best tradition of the Veteran's of Labor medal, however that is hardly the same as the plumage worn by those in
a military variant of mess dress.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 04:28:34 PMI guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

What, specifically, would you suggest be done?

When they announced the CSU was to be retired, with no real explanation as to why, there was enough gnashing of teeth from the field that they delayed the sundown almost two years.

The they announced a moratorium on any uniform changes until after the above.

So until the moratorium expires or is lifted, there isn't even a channel to have these discussions officially.  NHQ has not asked for any comment on uniform designs, but considering the visibility of this forum to any number of board members, one could certainly be reasonable in assuming these conversations are happening on the back channel.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
Yes, it is.  In the best tradition of the Veteran's of Labor medal, however that is hardly the same as the plumage worn by those in
a military variant of mess dress.

I agree, and that is the problem. To me it looks and feels like half of our officers are overlooked in the uniform department. I know that is not the true case, I know that there have been quite a few attempts at giving them a good looking uniform, it just hasn't been able to be done as of yet. Everyone of us in CAP deserves a good looking full uniform to post our resumes on.

I don't know the process of sending up a uniform proposal, but I would like to know. I just know I don't have a good enough one to send up.

There is nothing wrong with the whites as they are.  The entirety of the situation is fixed with smart-looking civilian variant of
the military-style service coat.

That's it - nothing fancy, we don't need hats, or special pants, or anything else.

Just a decent jacket that makes people less "different" than their peers.  Black or gray in the same cut as the USAF jacket and we all move on to the next problem.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2010, 04:49:23 PM
There is nothing wrong with the whites as they are.  The entirety of the situation is fixed with smart-looking civilian variant of
the military-style service coat.

That's it - nothing fancy, we don't need hats, or special pants, or anything else.

Just a decent jacket that makes people less "different" than their peers.  Black or gray in the same cut as the USAF jacket and we all move on to the next problem.

I could go for black. No hat, ok, I just thought it would be nice for them for a little extra pride, lets face it a little pride can go a long ways. But an entire gray dress uniform? I don't know about you but a gray service dress type uniform was ruined for me between 1939 and 1945.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2010, 04:38:36 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 04:28:34 PMI guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

What, specifically, would you suggest be done?

When they announced the CSU was to be retired, with no real explanation as to why, there was enough gnashing of teeth from the field that they delayed the sundown almost two years.

The they announced a moratorium on any uniform changes until after the above.

So until the moratorium expires or is lifted, there isn't even a channel to have these discussions officially.  NHQ has not asked for any comment on uniform designs, but considering the visibility of this forum to any number of board members, one could certainly be reasonable in assuming these conversations are happening on the back channel.

Did you even read the whole thing or just skip to the last sentence? I am not suggesting that anything be done, just noting that nothing gets done. How many times has this same thing been rehashed on forums, Eclipse? How many years does it go back?

Generally, the behavior seems to be "I deserve a cookie!"

Then, there are complaints when the cookie doesn't materialize: "Where's my cookie?"

Information is received: "Oh, you've just got to go get it, it's over there."

Follow on complaint: "What? I've got to go get it myself? Someone should be bringing it to me!"

Response: "No, if you want it, you just go get it."

Final complaints, either "Someone should be bringing it to me, I deserve it!" or "That's not fair, I shouldn't have to do anything for it!"

Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
Either posters here think that this forum is a direct line to the BoG and their proposal will just automatically be adopted ( . . .)

I suppose you will just have to take my word on it, but the BoG will never, ever, EVER! involve itself in these sorts of uniform issues.

Quote from: Reverend Johnson (in Blazing Saddles)Son, you're on your own!

Ned Lee

(Did I mention "never"?)

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 05:26:05 PM
Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

I may be missing part of what you are saying.

This is nothing that I am demanding, it isn't even for me. I wear the USAF style uniform anyways. I just think that those who do wear the corporate uniforms should have a nice jacket that they can wear their stuff on and look good. It isn't a demand for me, it isn't a demand for them, it is a thing that I want to see happen for them. They do deserve it, they have earned the  right to a service jacket of some type to show their awards and decorations that they have earned. Did I get it or did I miss something?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 05:35:09 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 05:26:05 PM
Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

I may be missing part of what you are saying.

This is nothing that I am demanding, it isn't even for me. I wear the USAF style uniform anyways. I just think that those who do wear the corporate uniforms should have a nice jacket that they can wear their stuff on and look good. It isn't a demand for me, it isn't a demand for them, it is a thing that I want to see happen for them. They do deserve it, they have earned the  right to a service jacket of some type to show their awards and decorations that they have earned. Did I get it or did I miss something?

No, you didn't miss anything. That was basically a history lesson. I did the same thing a few years, designed something, got feedback, even sent it up the chain. Got it back about seven months later with reply that basically said "Nobody's interested in this proposal, you can have it back."

Spent the time working on something that could very well have been adopted if more than just a handful of people had done something with it.

You have enthusiasm, and that's good. But don't be surprised if your ideas don't get adopted. There are people that go get their own cookie, and there are others that think that it should not only be brought to them, but fed to them as well.

I agree that some want hand fed, but then again...

I do want to work on a new jacket, I think it is well deserved. If they say no, oh well, back to the drawing board, and keep doing it until they find one they like. I just don't know how many different jackets you can suggest before you start regurgitating the same things over and over again.

You are right, a uniform needs to be designed by more than just one or two people. You do need the input of as many people as possible.I just don't know how many are willing to put in the work and the ideas.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 31, 2010, 05:50:21 PMI did the same thing a few years, designed something, got feedback, even sent it up the chain. Got it back about seven months later with reply that basically said "Nobody's interested in this proposal, you can have it back."

At least you heard something back. I never even got that much.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 06:00:36 PMYou are right, a uniform needs to be designed by more than just one or two people. You do need the input of as many people as possible.I just don't know how many are willing to put in the work and the ideas.

That's kind of the problem. Many will say they want something, but fail when it came to the work. The idea I had I sent out to a few people across the country. If we had all submitted it, it probably would have gone up. Then again, maybe everyone did.

Quote from: arajca on December 31, 2010, 06:08:41 PMAt least you heard something back. I never even got that much.

I'm wondering how far it even went. I've also suspected that the others got the same reply after it sat in someone's box, then just got sent back because they didn't want to bother with it.

For better or worse (mostly worse  ::) ), most uniform changes come about because a single wing commander puts it forward as an agenda item at a NB meeting.  And like with any agenda item, the real work comes with politicking and arm-twisting before the meeting to line up the support necessary.  Wing commanders talk amongst themselves a lot before the meetings on precisely such issues.

When I am a primary staffer, one of my jobs is to look at upcoming agendas and prepare position papers for the boss on agenda items that touch on my AO.  Basically why I think it is a good or a bad idea.  But I think every staff officer has had the experience of spending a couple hours on a well-composed position paper and then have their boss vote the other way simply because the wing commander owed some other wing commander a favor, or had a 30-second conversation with the proposing wing commander and "he convinced me it was a good idea, so I voted for it."  Sigh.

So, practically speaking, anyone with a uniform idea would be best served by buttonholing the wing commander at a hospitality room rather than patiently submitting something through staff channels and waiting for feedback.

It shouldn't be that way of course.  But there it is.

Quote from: Ned on December 31, 2010, 07:14:24 PM
For better or worse (mostly worse  ::) ), most uniform changes come about because a single wing commander puts it forward as an agenda item at a NB meeting.  And like with any agenda item, the real work comes with politicking and arm-twisting before the meeting to line up the support necessary.  Wing commanders talk amongst themselves a lot before the meetings on precisely such issues.

When I am a primary staffer, one of my jobs is to look at upcoming agendas and prepare position papers for the boss on agenda items that touch on my AO.  Basically why I think it is a good or a bad idea.  But I think every staff officer has had the experience of spending a couple hours on a well-composed position paper and then have their boss vote the other way simply because the wing commander owed some other wing commander a favor, or had a 30-second conversation with the proposing wing commander and "he convinced me it was a good idea, so I voted for it."  Sigh.

So, practically speaking, anyone with a uniform idea would be best served by buttonholing the wing commander at a hospitality room rather than patiently submitting something through staff channels and waiting for feedback.

It shouldn't be that way of course.  But there it is.

Well, that's food for thought.

Quote from: jeders on December 31, 2010, 04:09:33 PM
Here's my question, what's wrong with the CAP blazer combo?

There are quite a few CAP members, myself included, who frankly dislike the grey/white/blazer.

It looks more like a Realtor (no slight intended to Realtors, I used to work in that business) than aviation of any kind.

For better, worse or otherwise, the colour of aviation is blue, not grey.  It has been ever since the newly-formed Royal Air Force took over a bunch of Russian Hussar grey-blue uniforms in about 1918.  Airline crew the world over tend to wear blue (or black).  With the exception of the wartime USAAF, I have not seen an air force anywhere in the world that wears grey, except for the former East Germany, and they wore blue piping:

(http://gowenmilitaria.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/AFCO1.jpg)

I personally find the combination of grey and white jarring in contrast, and it doesn't look "slimming" on heavier people.  Even a commercially available blue airline-type shirt would lessen that.

FWIW, I can and do wear the AF-style...but I would like an option in case I can't someday that doesn't look like the German Bundeswehr (no slight intended to our German allies).

I think if we were to have one jacket for the corporate uniform that would work for both service and mess dress, like this.
(//img%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%20alt=%5Dhttp://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=364)
Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 09:31:29 PM
I think if we were to have one jacket for the corporate uniform that would work for both service and mess dress, like this.
(//img%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%20alt=%5Dhttp://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=364)
Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

Picture is missing

There are only so many colors that make sense for a paramilitary uniform, and only so many ways to cut a suit jacket, unless you want to stray into something wholly custom, whatever we consider will always look like "something else".

The current USAF service coat is really just a civilian blazer with epaulets, without accouterments it isn't very "military" looking at all.

(http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/849/corporateservice.jpg) (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/corporateservice.jpg/)
This is the normal wear set up.
(http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/8601/messdress.jpg) (http://img816.imageshack.us/i/messdress.jpg/)
This is the Formal wear set up.

Did these work?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 11:45:24 PM
(http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/849/corporateservice.jpg) (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/corporateservice.jpg/)
This is the normal wear set up.
(http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/8601/messdress.jpg) (http://img816.imageshack.us/i/messdress.jpg/)
This is the Formal wear set up.

Did these work?

what is the round crest looking thing on the right? What is the reason it is there?

That would be the CAP seal, in metal. The reasoning behind this is that it is an extra identifier that it is a CAP uniform. Personally I think it looks nice being there. I changed the placement of it for the Mess Dress conversion to be more in line with the USAF Mess Dress uniform that we already have access to.

Just so that we don't have to go back and rehash the post, pick a color, Black, Blue, or Gray.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 09:31:29 PM
Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

Why can't the coat and pants both be blue, as long as it's not Air Force Shade 1620?

Quote from: CyBorg on January 01, 2011, 03:00:49 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 31, 2010, 09:31:29 PM
Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

Why can't the coat and pants both be blue, as long as it's not Air Force Shade 1620?

I completely agree. That is my first choice. However that would be a decent fall back if ma blue says not  both in blue.

Does anybody else have any ideas for a new full CSU uniform?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 01, 2011, 10:55:53 PM
Does anybody else have any ideas for a new full CSU uniform?

This is similar to my other ideas, and with mine you have to use your imagination because I neither have Photoshop nor know how to use it. :-\

::)However, these are based on the zealousness that National and some in CAP seem to have for "grey only." ::)

But please let us have a little bit of colour by trading in the white shirt for blue...if we have to look like Imperial officers from Star Wars at least break up the monotony a little bit...

Commercially-available Van Heusen aviator shirt:
(http://garffshirts.com/ProductImages/13V5000-400_AVIATOR_form.50.jpg)

Commercially-available grey uniform pants:
(http://www.commodoreuniform.com/images/MensGreyTrousers.jpg)

Commercially-available airline-cut black uniform coat, single or double breasted:
(http://www.crewoutfitters.com/en/images/i/black.jpg)

USPHS issue black garrison cap:
(http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/images/blkmengarrisoncap.jpg)

(I was going to suggest the Navy's new black garrison cap, but I'm trying to circumvent the anti-military uniform people...USPHS is a uniformed service, but not military unless attached to the Coast Guard) :o

I have to admit, I like it. It would definitely need some serious identification like a metal CAP seal or something to get it by ma blue because of its similarity to the old CSU.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 12:34:59 AM
I have to admit, I like it. It would definitely need some serious identification like a metal CAP seal or something to get it by ma blue because of its similarity to the old CSU.

How is it similar to the CSU?

The CSU did not have a blue shirt.

The CSU is shade 1620 blue and used the Air Force flight cap and issue trousers.

The only option that is similar would be the double-breasted service coat option.

And why would it necessarily need a CAP seal, though I'm not opposed to that.

The blue shirt would still use standard CAP grey slides and nameplate.

A non-AF black web belt with gold or silver buckle would be the belt.

The service coat, of whichever style, would only have CAP ribbons and badges, and all ranks would wear CAP cutouts on the lapels.

The nameplate would be the existing blazer nameplate with rank insignia (but bin the horribly ugly pocket pouch with CAP crest).

The USPHS garrison cap (or black Navy garrison cap) would have the CAP flight cap crest.

It would be CAP from top to bottom.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2011, 04:55:46 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 12:34:59 AM
I have to admit, I like it. It would definitely need some serious identification like a metal CAP seal or something to get it by ma blue because of its similarity to the old CSU.

How is it similar to the CSU?

The CSU did not have a blue shirt.

The CSU is shade 1620 blue and used the Air Force flight cap and issue trousers.

The only option that is similar would be the double-breasted service coat option.

And why would it necessarily need a CAP seal, though I'm not opposed to that.

The blue shirt would still use standard CAP grey slides and nameplate.

A non-AF black web belt with gold or silver buckle would be the belt.

The service coat, of whichever style, would only have CAP ribbons and badges, and all ranks would wear CAP cutouts on the lapels.

The nameplate would be the existing blazer nameplate with rank insignia (but bin the horribly ugly pocket pouch with CAP crest).

The USPHS garrison cap (or black Navy garrison cap) would have the CAP flight cap crest.

It would be CAP from top to bottom.

The double breast is the only issue that I could see ma blue having an issue with. But... I like it, I would wear it. ONLY IF THERE WAS NO CAP POCKET PROTECTOR.

You busted your graphic again ...

That plastic thing is the most hideous looking thing I have ever seen on a uniform that is supposed to present a professional image. If one thing could go..

Quote from: a2capt on January 02, 2011, 06:03:40 AM
That plastic thing is the most hideous looking thing I have ever seen on a uniform that is supposed to present a professional image. If one thing could go..

:clap: :) :D ;D

I realise that there are those who want to stay with a grey uniform combination, simply because it's what they're used to, and with NHQ being seemingly snakebitten by anything blue, that's why I tried to come up with a combination that still used the grey trousers.

I just don't want to look like I should be serving on the Death Star instead of CAP. >:D

(http://www.axiomfiles.com/Files/319936/StormtrooperBlacks.JPG)

Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2011, 07:03:25 AM

Quote from: a2capt on January 02, 2011, 06:03:40 AM
That plastic thing is the most hideous looking thing I have ever seen on a uniform that is supposed to present a professional image. If one thing could go..

:clap: :) :D ;D

I realise that there are those who want to stay with a grey uniform combination, simply because it's what they're used to, and with NHQ being seemingly snakebitten by anything blue, that's why I tried to come up with a combination that still used the grey trousers.

I just don't want to look like I should be serving on the Death Star instead of CAP. >:D

(http://www.axiomfiles.com/Files/319936/StormtrooperBlacks.JPG)

I think we'll be okay, so long as we stay away from the peaked cap and the ceremonial belt.  Having said that, authoritarian regimes always seem to have the snazziest uniforms, don't they?

Quote from: a2capt on January 02, 2011, 06:03:40 AM
You busted your graphic again ...

That plastic thing is the most hideous looking thing I have ever seen on a uniform that is supposed to present a professional image. If one thing could go..

What plastic thing?
Are you talking about the nameplate? That is the only plastic thing there.
If so, I do sort of agree, I just don't know what we would use other than. I highly doubt that USAF would allow us to wear the silver brushed nameplate. I am asking for suggestions if you have anything better.

The blazer has two set ups available for the crest and name plate. First, and most professional IMHO, is the crest and nameplate pinned to the jacket. It takes a little more time to set up and does leave typical pin holes when you remove it. Second is a plastic pocket slide that has a section for the name plate and a larger section for the crest. It it designed to be slipped on to instantly convert a plain blue blazer to a CAP blazer.

Flash back to any geek movie and you'll them on every geeks left breast pocket with their pens, pencils, and slide rules. Take out the crap and s-t-r-e-t-c-h the outer portion to accomdate the crest and you have it.

That's why I call it a pocket protector.

Can we all just raise our hands and promise never to wear that thing again?

Is it really that much work to pin the crest and nametag on?  Talk about taking a bad situation and making it worse!

I applaud the efforts, we beat this to death last year and some person posted similar photos.  The USAF has all ready stated that CAP will no have any type of distinctive uniform that resembles a military uniform.  The only way we are going to have a separate uniform like the one you propose is to totally separate from the AF and have no ties to them what so ever.  It is just too bad we can keep the CSU as it is and call it a day.  If we were to go with a new CSU, I think a modified air line uniform would look sharp(its aviation related). Just stay away from gold sleeve braid because we do not want to be mistaken for the US Navy or Coastguard.  Stay away from double breasted , looks horrible on the belly.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
I applaud the efforts, we beat this to death last year and some person posted similar photos. 

If you beat a dead horse in the right spot you could perform CPR, and bring it back to life.

Good point!

Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2011, 04:55:46 AMThe CSU is shade 1620 blue and used the Air Force flight cap and issue trousers.

Nope. The late, lamented CSU was Shade 1625 polyester double-knit. At one time the RealAirForce® had service dress jackets in both Shade 1620 polyester wool and Shade 1625 polyester double-knit, but only 1620 is available now.  1625 trousers are still available at the MCSS. (The service dress cap is 1625, and flight caps are still offered in 1620 and 1625, though the latter are harder to come by.) 1620 is what's currently issued at Lackland to the snuffies.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
The USAF has all ready stated that CAP will no have any type of distinctive uniform that resembles a military uniform.

I know, which is why I went the airline route for my ideas.

However, the "low-light/at-a-distance" directive from the USAF is so vague and so open to interpretation depending on one's knowledge of CAP or uniforms in general that about the only uniform we have that doesn't resemble a military uniform is the polo/grey...and even the USAF now has a "casual" uniform that uses a polo shirt.

As I've said, the grey/white is very close to what the modern German Army shirtsleeve dress order is.

If we need to clarify 39-1 in a lot of ways, the USAF needs to clarify that part of AFI 10-2701.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
The only way we are going to have a separate uniform like the one you propose is to totally separate from the AF and have no ties to them what so ever.

The day we separate from the AF is the day I separate from CAP.

Did you mean my uniform proposals or Manfred's?

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
It is just too bad we can keep the CSU as it is and call it a day. 

It utterly boggles my mind as to why we cannot, with the modifications that General Courter mandated.  It would be logical.  But, as I said in another thread, logic goes down the pipe when the topic of CAP uniforms comes into play.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
If we were to go with a new CSU, I think a modified air line uniform would look sharp(its aviation related). Just stay away from gold sleeve braid because we do not want to be mistaken for the US Navy or Coastguard. 

I would stay away from sleeve striping for another reason: it's a PITA to get changed if you get promoted.  Ask one of our resident U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliarists (I know, they don't have "promotions," but you get the idea).

Which is why my main proposal is this:

Commercially-available dark-blue airline pilot uniform with no sleeve striping.  Keep the white Van Heusen shirt.  CAP-only badges, CAP cutouts, existing blazer nameplate with rank affixed.  No changes to shirt insignia.
(http://www.crewoutfitters.com/en/images/i/NAVY_JACKET_PANTS.jpg)

The thing I get a bee up my nose about is those who say we absolutely, positively have to stay away from any shade of blue.

"Blue" and "not having a military-style distinctive uniform" are not mutually exclusive.

(AlphaSigOU: My bad on the 1620/25)

Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2011, 11:20:59 PM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
The USAF has all ready stated that CAP will no have any type of distinctive uniform that resembles a military uniform.

I know, which is why I went the airline route for my ideas.

However, the "low-light/at-a-distance" directive from the USAF is so vague and so open to interpretation depending on one's knowledge of CAP or uniforms in general that about the only uniform we have that doesn't resemble a military uniform is the polo/grey...and even the USAF now has a "casual" uniform that uses a polo shirt.

As I've said, the grey/white is very close to what the modern German Army shirtsleeve dress order is.

If we need to clarify 39-1 in a lot of ways, the USAF needs to clarify that part of AFI 10-2701.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
The only way we are going to have a separate uniform like the one you propose is to totally separate from the AF and have no ties to them what so ever.

The day we separate from the AF is the day I separate from CAP.

Did you mean my uniform proposals or Manfred's?

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
It is just too bad we can keep the CSU as it is and call it a day. 

It utterly boggles my mind as to why we cannot, with the modifications that General Courter mandated.  It would be logical.  But, as I said in another thread, logic goes down the pipe when the topic of CAP uniforms comes into play.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on January 02, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
If we were to go with a new CSU, I think a modified air line uniform would look sharp(its aviation related). Just stay away from gold sleeve braid because we do not want to be mistaken for the US Navy or Coastguard. 

I would stay away from sleeve striping for another reason: it's a PITA to get changed if you get promoted.  Ask one of our resident U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliarists (I know, they don't have "promotions," but you get the idea).

Which is why my main proposal is this:

Commercially-available dark-blue airline pilot uniform with no sleeve striping.  Keep the white Van Heusen shirt.  CAP-only badges, CAP cutouts, existing blazer nameplate with rank affixed.  No changes to shirt insignia.
(http://www.crewoutfitters.com/en/images/i/NAVY_JACKET_PANTS.jpg)

The thing I get a bee up my nose about is those who say we absolutely, positively have to stay away from any shade of blue.

"Blue" and "not having a military-style distinctive uniform" are not mutually exclusive.

(AlphaSigOU: My bad on the 1620/25)

OK I will chime in now. I like this idea for a Corporate Jacket. It even looks similar to the current USAF service coat. I say standardize the color of the pants and stay gray. Add CAP Buttons.  I REALLY like the idea of the blazer name tag with rank affixed and keeping the white shirt. Navy blue tie, NOT the CAP "regimental" tie that is for the blazer. Add a Navy Blue Service Cap and away we go.  As it is very hard to acquire a garrison cap in Navy Blue, make the wearing of headgear optional and specify the service cap when worn.  For formal wear, mini medals and bow tie.

I don't particularly care what it looks like, as long as it can be worn by ALL SMs.

Quote from: SarDragon on January 03, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
I don't particularly care what it looks like, as long as it can be worn by ALL SMs.

:clap: :clap:

Quote from: SarDragon on January 03, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
I don't particularly care what it looks like, as long as it can be worn by ALL SMs.

Completely agree!!!

Perhaps I've missed it in all these threads over the last couple years, or more, but all this about low light, military look, etc, is this actually documented someplace or is this the result of a game of "telephone" (quote-a-phone)?

Methinks the uniform wear brouhaha is swinging at one end of the pendulum; it might change when a new national commander takes office. Much that I liked the CSU, how it was ram-jammed behind the back of the RealAirForce® is primarily why Ma Blue is sore affronted.

I like the proposal above; make it single-breasted three-button with CAP 36 ligne buttons (in satin and not chrome finish). I wouldn't mind using the CAP-distinctive mess dress boards for grade instead of the blazer nameplate with grade insignia. (Keep the blazer nameplate, without the rank as an identifier.) If Ma Blue still has kittens sideways, then we could modify the boards so that the blue braid is gray and not silver and the Hap Arnold button is replaced with a 25-ligne CAP button. Instead of a permanent modification to attach shoulder boards, one could design a shoulder board attachment device that could be safety pinned (no frogs!) to the jacket's shoulders.

CAP-only ribbons, badges and aeronautical ratings. CAP cutouts on the lapels.

Drop the name tag and use mini medals for an acceptable mess-dress style uniform. Dark blue bow tie.

Quote from: a2capt on January 03, 2011, 04:46:45 AM
Perhaps I've missed it in all these threads over the last couple years, or more, but all this about low light, military look, etc, is this actually documented someplace or is this the result of a game of "telephone" (quote-a-phone)?

Air Force Instruction 10-2701, Organization And Function Of The Civil Air Patrol, page 8:

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.


About as vague and open to interpretation as can be, depending on your knowledge of uniforms and how good your eyesight is.  Someone wearing the G/W can easily from a distance be mistaken for a German Bundeswehr officer (they wear dark-grey pants and a white shirt, with a light-grey tunic).


(http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/militarysurplus/collectibles/german-wachbataillon-dress-tunic4big.jpg)

I've used the example several times of an E-1 straight out of Lackland who knows nothing about CAP (as I would say is true of most of today's USAF), sees a CAP officer wearing the CSU, gripes to their first shirt about "someone playing officer," and the upshot is...the end of the CSU, and NHQ and the "corporate" side of our membership saying "grey is the only way."

The only thing the CSU had in common with the AF uniform was the colour, pants, and flight cap, but it's going, going, gone, for reasons that have not, and probably never will be, made clear.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Methinks the uniform wear brouhaha is swinging at one end of the pendulum; it might change when a new national commander takes office.

Hmm?  General Courter is the one who modified the CSU to make it more distinctive.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
I like the proposal above; make it single-breasted three-button with CAP 36 ligne buttons (in satin and not chrome finish). I wouldn't mind using the CAP-distinctive mess dress boards for grade instead of the blazer nameplate with grade insignia. (Keep the blazer nameplate, without the rank as an identifier.)

Or use the current silver nameplate that says "Civil Air Patrol," as used on the CSU.

I suggested much the same thing about the mess dress shoulder boards months ago and got a less-than-warm reception because of the cost of the shoulder boards.  That's why I didn't suggest it this time.

One option might be to use AFROTC boards with CAP buttons.

The rights to these images belong solely to Vanguard.

Examples:

SMWOG
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008356700_MED.jpg)

Flight Officer
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008356701_MED.jpg)

Captain
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000008357000_MED.jpg)

Plus...Vanguard sells them (as you can see from the Vanguard copyright notice on the images, hope I didn't infringe!!!), so they'd make money. >:D

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
If Ma Blue still has kittens sideways

It seems that the anticipation of this is greater than the reality.  I think it has been ever since the days of the "berry boards."

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Instead of a permanent modification to attach shoulder boards, one could design a shoulder board attachment device that could be safety pinned (no frogs!) to the jacket's shoulders.

Snaps, with the "male" end affixed to the underside of the board, and the "female" end sewn onto the shoulder seam of the coat.

(No offence with the gender distinctions; I couldn't think of anything else to call them!)  ???

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
CAP-only ribbons, badges and aeronautical ratings. CAP cutouts on the lapels.

Drop the name tag and use mini medals for an acceptable mess-dress style uniform. Dark blue bow tie.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: CyBorg on January 03, 2011, 07:43:23 AM

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 03, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Instead of a permanent modification to attach shoulder boards, one could design a shoulder board attachment device that could be safety pinned (no frogs!) to the jacket's shoulders.

Snaps, with the "male" end affixed to the underside of the board, and the "female" end sewn onto the shoulder seam of the coat.

(No offence with the gender distinctions; I couldn't think of anything else to call them!)  ???

Actually, that's been done before, with the genders reversed regarding location of parts, on the original cadet officer shoulder boards. It was a PITA method, so they shifted to the Velcro, which is still a PITA method.

Bring back the Berry Boards [CyBorg starts grabbing chest]....kidding :), now onto the serious stuff. I like the grey trouser/grey blazer combination stated earlier in the thread. I think one of the legacy air carriers used to use grey.

I would like something similar to the Colonial dress uniform :)  We could start with this and make CAP alterations.

(http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/6/6b/AdamaDressUniformWater.JPG)

SarDragon: Yes, I've seen our cadets do the velcro, but without epaulettes I can't think of any way to affix the shoulder boards properly.  I was thinking that they would give a look similar to what the RAAF has, without all the scrambled eggs, aiguilettes and British blingage, of course:

(http://www.airforce.gov.au/Leaders/images/caf_rowland.jpg)

FARRIER: That's not funny, not at my age (cue old image of Fred Sanford faking heart attack). >:D

Seriously, as I said earlier, if it absolutely has to be grey, at least let us have an airline-blue shirt to break the black-grey-white colourless monotony.

All gray and white does make me feel like USAF thinks we live in ordinuns.

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 06:41:35 PM
I would like something similar to the Colonial dress uniform :)  We could start with this and make CAP alterations.

(http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/6/6b/AdamaDressUniformWater.JPG)

Works for me, I like their field uniforms, too.

or, for a white shirt and black tie, gray vest. This civilian tux look I can imagine looking great with CAP embellisments. With CAP pilot or observer wings (small size) and ribbons and rank on a tie tac. For dress occasions, perhaps?

(http://www.tuxedocorner.com/ck_aston.jpg)

And this on the lapel:

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP901F_MED.jpg)

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 10:40:15 PM
or, for a white shirt and black tie, gray vest. This civilian tux look I can imagine looking great with CAP embellisments. With CAP pilot or observer wings (small size) and ribbons and rank on a tie tac.

(http://www.tuxedocorner.com/ck_aston.jpg)

And this on the lapel:

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP901F_MED.jpg)

That is a joke right?

hehe partly, for dress occasions with others in dress mess it might work for the younger crowd and slimmer crowd. :)

You said yourself the Air Force jacket is based off a business suit. I had the idea to take a nice style of tux and convert it to a substitute for the dress mess and a nice style of business suit and do the same to substitute for the service coat. Where you can wear your CAP ribbons, badges, wings, and rank and also have a beard, goatee, or be a little overweight.

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PMYou said yourself the Air Force jacket is based off a business suit.

Yes, but your pic is like a movie vampire or Sherlock Holmes or somthing, besides, you just picked that pic because he has a beard!

Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 10:49:40 PM

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PMYou said yourself the Air Force jacket is based off a business suit.

Yes, but your pic is like a movie vampire or Sherlock Holmes or somthing, besides, you just picked that pic because he has a beard!

I actually think that the Tux is rather BA.  I'd wear it in a heartbeat as a tuxedo, not as a uniform though...

I'd probably look pretty dern good in it too...

Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 10:49:40 PM

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PMYou said yourself the Air Force jacket is based off a business suit.

Yes, but your pic is like a movie vampire or Sherlock Holmes or somthing, besides, you just picked that pic because he has a beard!

It's from a tux site. If you have another suit or tux you like better lets see it. Beards, goatees, nothing wrong with them!

Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 08:13:17 PM

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 06:41:35 PM
I would like something similar to the Colonial dress uniform :)  We could start with this and make CAP alterations.

(http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/6/6b/AdamaDressUniformWater.JPG)

Works for me, I like their field uniforms, too.

So say we all  ;D

Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 10:49:40 PM

Quote from: BradM on January 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PMYou said yourself the Air Force jacket is based off a business suit.

Yes, but your pic is like a movie vampire or Sherlock Holmes or somthing, besides, you just picked that pic because he has a beard!

That's not a beard. It's just an example of being too lazy to shave for a couple of days.

Cyborg and Manfred:

Here is where I've seen the grey uniforms:

Southern Air Transport - Vietnam Era

(http://www.air-america.net/images/SAT/sat-jacket2.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/SAT/sat-in.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/SAT/sat-uni.jpg)

Air America

(http://www.utdallas.edu/news/imgs/photos/uniform-large-2009-02.jpg)

With a modern airline uniform cut, add the earlier suggestions in the thread of blazer nameplate rank, wings, specialty track devices, etc.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 03, 2011, 07:54:16 PM
SarDragon: Yes, I've seen our cadets do the velcro, but without epaulettes I can't think of any way to affix the shoulder boards properly.  I was thinking that they would give a look similar to what the RAAF has, without all the scrambled eggs, aiguilettes and British blingage, of course:

(http://www.airforce.gov.au/Leaders/images/caf_rowland.jpg)

FARRIER: That's not funny, not at my age (cue old image of Fred Sanford faking heart attack). >:D

Seriously, as I said earlier, if it absolutely has to be grey, at least let us have an airline-blue shirt to break the black-grey-white colourless monotony.

Let's not be silly. When the threads drift into silliness Mike usually locks them.

I would be happy to have either white shirt/blue trousers or blue shirt/grey trousers.

The grey/white colour combo is one of the most colourLESS I can think of.

FARRIER: I've thought about Air America too, but they also had tan/khaki...not just colourless grey/white.

The same for Navy aviator greys.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFDYIzhA3gpWqq2b5BAtu-1e6hUXOtI-uCbQtBMLurrXvcNoBdJw)

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdqnaAmxv5K26XplyXBKxvm8S6a3SYr8HiQw26w93PBINIRh65)

(No I'm not suggesting adopt the Navy uniform)

After trying to order a new uniform from AAFES with no success, I would be in favor of that grey looking air line uniform with some modifications.  There is a uniform shop in Miami that specializes in custom  made uniforms for the air lines, I am sure they could hook us up.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2011, 07:19:00 AM
The same for Navy aviator greys.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFDYIzhA3gpWqq2b5BAtu-1e6hUXOtI-uCbQtBMLurrXvcNoBdJw)

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdqnaAmxv5K26XplyXBKxvm8S6a3SYr8HiQw26w93PBINIRh65)

Well, I wouldn't call them aviator greys, because only one of the eight uniforms shown has wings, and the two in front aren't even officer uniforms. They have Chief Machinist Mate rating badges, which are about as far as you can get from aviation, since these guy work down in the engineering spaces, at or below the waterline.

What is your source for these pics? I have never seen this color uniform before, and I have literally spent my entire life close to the Navy.

SarDragon: I did a Google Images search for "grey dress uniform."  I'll defer to your knowledge on Navy uniforms since I know relatively little.

I think, at best, if the "corporate" side has their way about things, we'll end up with a very plain looking version of something like this:

(http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32917&d=1187441052)

It's basically what we have now with a grey (too)military-cut coat and bling.

(Actually, it's Brazilian Air Force.)

I've been away from the airlines since 2003, but, I never saw an airline use any shade of grey. I'm thinking of the aversion to blue those in power have. There is a path to a professional looking uniform with an aviation history behind it. And wearing a service cap with a shirt and trousers isn't just military. Up untill I left, it wasn't uncommon to see a Captain do a preflight with his service cap on, in shirt sleeves. So there is a civilian precedent to this. And as far as airlines that allow pilots to wear goatees, Cayman Airways.

Respectfully,

Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2011, 07:19:00 AM
Let's not be silly. When the threads drift into silliness Mike usually locks them.

I would be happy to have either white shirt/blue trousers or blue shirt/grey trousers.

The grey/white colour combo is one of the most colourLESS I can think of.

FARRIER: I've thought about Air America too, but they also had tan/khaki...not just colourless grey/white.

The same for Navy aviator greys.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFDYIzhA3gpWqq2b5BAtu-1e6hUXOtI-uCbQtBMLurrXvcNoBdJw)

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdqnaAmxv5K26XplyXBKxvm8S6a3SYr8HiQw26w93PBINIRh65)

(No I'm not suggesting adopt the Navy uniform)

Quote from: FARRIER on January 04, 2011, 07:55:57 AM
I've been away from the airlines since 2003, but, I never saw an airline use any shade of grey. I'm thinking of the aversion to blue those in power have. There is a path to a professional looking uniform with an aviation history behind it. And wearing a service cap with a shirt and trousers isn't just military. Up untill I left, it wasn't uncommon to see a Captain do a preflight with his service cap on, in shirt sleeves. So there is a civilian precedent to this. And as far as airlines that allow pilots to wear goatees, Cayman Airways.

I have no idea why those in power have such a zealotry for grey and an aversion to blue, unless it's still some sort of residual jitters dating back to when we got the berry boards imposed.

I agree with you that there is a path to a professional looking uniform with an aviation history behind it...but I really doubt NHQ will get behind anything that isn't grey.

Well, I did some lookin', and they are legit, dating from 1943-1949, so they did exist in my lifetime.

All I gotta say - them's some fugly uniforms.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2011, 08:02:31 AM
I have no idea why those in power have such a zealotry for grey and an aversion to blue, unless it's still some sort of residual jitters dating back to when we got the berry boards imposed.  I agree with you that there is a path to a professional looking uniform with an aviation history behind it...but I really doubt NHQ will get behind anything that isn't grey.

Considering NHQ is in Alabama, if CAP went back to 1865 I could guess at a reason..

Quote from: RVT on January 04, 2011, 04:42:25 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2011, 08:02:31 AM
I have no idea why those in power have such a zealotry for grey and an aversion to blue, unless it's still some sort of residual jitters dating back to when we got the berry boards imposed.  I agree with you that there is a path to a professional looking uniform with an aviation history behind it...but I really doubt NHQ will get behind anything that isn't grey.

Considering NHQ is in Alabama, if CAP went back to 1865 I could guess at a reason..

Gotta say, this looks kinda snappy:
(http://viceroybooks.com.au/images/US_Civil_War_Uniforms.jpg)

If I were king and designing a CAP distinctive uniform, it'd look something like this (somewhat similar to a couple earlier images):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/J-RAD/CAP/CAPUniform2.png)

• Dark charcoal jacket
• Gunmetal gray pants with dark blue stripe (think Army/Marine Corps style)
• Dark blue epaulets (with CAP) - or possibly the same light gray epaulets as the AF-style?
• Gray shirt
• Same blue tie as AF-style
• All other uniform items the same as AF-style

Could be worn in the same combos as the AF-style service dress (ie. with or without service coat, long sleeves or short, etc.).  Also add charcoal pullover to combo.  A bow tie and shoulder boards could be added to make it formal (ie. like the cadet uniform).  This would compliment the AF-style uniform while providing a professional look.

The current CSU is already on phase out.   At the same time, I'd ax the blazer, aviator gray, and polo outfits.   No need for the blazer and this uniform combo can be worn open collar with short sleeves.  This would reduce overhead and streamline things a bit as the seniors would essentially be reduced to only 2 uniform options - AF style or CAP distinctive. 

Some people may not like the military style while others that can't wear the AF-style may welcome it.  We can't be all things to all people and not everyone would be happy.  Some people would probably even leave as a result but sometimes that's the price of doing business. 

Since we are playing King, I would go the complete opposite.  I would phase out all USAF-style uniforms and make the blazer, aviator gray, blue BDU, and polo outfits as the only uniform options.  One uniform for each type of activity so we can all look, errrr, UNIFORM!

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on January 04, 2011, 09:38:51 PM
Since we are playing King, I would go the complete opposite.  I would phase out all USAF-style uniforms and make the blazer, aviator gray, blue BDU, and polo outfits as the only uniform options.  One uniform for each type of activity so we can all look, errrr, UNIFORM!

I really enjoy how people say cutting out the AF style/corporate style will make us uniform. Have you seen an active duty commanders call?

*at least in my experience* The pilots show up in flight suits (because heaven forbid they have to wear something other than their zoomies.) The "workers" (i.e. cops, fire fighters, paramedics, maintainers, fuels.....ext....) show up in a mix of ABU's, BDU's, and dress blues shirts and pants (normally). The back officer "paper pushers" if you will, show up in a mix of what seems like hundreds of dress blues combo's.

Then you get to the wing king and staff. The wing king (queen) can show up in whatever they want, and it has changed at every one i have went to. From full dress blues to flight suits.

Yes i know someone will say "but...but...they can make a certain one mandatory". Yes that is correct, but very rarely do they.

Even on dress blues Mondays i would say maybe... half the working base is in dress blues.... "uniformity" is something we all talk about.... rarely achieved on active duty. IMOSHO.

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on January 04, 2011, 09:38:51 PM
Since we are playing King, I would go the complete opposite.  I would phase out all USAF-style uniforms and make the blazer, aviator gray, blue BDU, and polo outfits as the only uniform options.  One uniform for each type of activity so we can all look, errrr, UNIFORM!

I say poop on that! Just because you hate the military look, doesn't mean you should be able to take the military heritage that CAP has. You take our past, you take our future.

One simple solution for me, playing king, would be for me to wear the AF uniform with my trimmed goatee or trimmed beard like Marko Ramius in The Hunt For Red October if I ever decided to do that too.  :) Keeping the weight standards for your belly. But, if you exceeded the weight standards because you were lifting weights and have a lot of upper body muscle. You just get a custom made AF coat/jacket.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 04, 2011, 10:38:23 PM
I say poop on that! Just because you hate the military look, doesn't mean you should be able to take the military heritage that CAP has. You take our past, you take our future.

Lighten up Francis.  A bit presumptuous, aren't we today?

Quote from: A.Member on January 04, 2011, 09:30:28 PM
If I were king and designing a CAP distinctive uniform, it'd look something like this (somewhat similar to a couple earlier images):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/J-RAD/CAP/CAPUniform2.png)

• Dark charcoal jacket
• Gunmetal gray pants with dark blue stripe (think Army/Marine Corps style)
• Dark blue epaulets (with CAP) - or possibly the same light gray epaulets as the AF-style?
• Gray shirt
• Same blue tie as AF-style
• All other uniform items the same as AF-style

Could be worn in the same combos as the AF-style service dress (ie. with or without service coat, long sleeves or short, etc.).  Also add charcoal pullover to combo.  A bow tie and shoulder boards could be added to make it formal (ie. like the cadet uniform).  This would compliment the AF-style uniform while providing a professional look.

The current CSU is already on phase out.   At the same time, I'd ax the blazer, aviator gray, and polo outfits.   No need for the blazer and this uniform combo can be worn open collar with short sleeves.  This would reduce overhead and streamline things a bit as the seniors would essentially be reduced to only 2 uniform options - AF style or CAP distinctive. 

Some people may not like the military style while others that can't wear the AF-style may welcome it.  We can't be all things to all people and not everyone would be happy.  Some people would probably even leave as a result but sometimes that's the price of doing business.

I'm not king either, but again, why does it all have to be grey?

If I WERE king, I would go with something based on what the Norwegians wear...kind of midway between blue and grey:

(http://www.webstaff.no/321100%20Air%20Force%20Part%202%20Service%20Dresses/lat_201.gif)

(http://www.webstaff.no/321100%20Air%20Force%20Part%202%20Service%20Dresses/lat_101.gif)

But no way, gotta be grey. ::)

In terms of "being distinctive".

Why do our ribbons, etc., have to be on the left side?

Put them on the right. 

Because they always have been worn on the left. Every branch wears them on the left. I can't even think of any country that wears their medals on the right.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 06, 2011, 01:52:50 AM
Because they always have been worn on the left. Every branch wears them on the left. I can't even think of any country that wears their medals on the right.

Which is my point - no question we aren't USAF - even the RAF above has their wing on the right.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2011, 02:00:41 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 06, 2011, 01:52:50 AM
Because they always have been worn on the left. Every branch wears them on the left. I can't even think of any country that wears their medals on the right.

Which is my point - no question we aren't USAF - even the RAF above has their wing on the right.

Here is the thing, those aren't RAF. They are Norwegian AF. The hat device is wrong for RAF.
The reason that those wings are on the right side is because they are awarded from another country. When a foreign military awards another country's soldier an award it is worn on the right, unless it is a ribbon, then it is worn on the left unless it is a blanket award.
Also it helps to read the whole post rather than looking at a small part of a picture like the wings on the right side of a uniform.
Here is what he said

Quote
I'm not king either, but again, why does it all have to be grey?

If I WERE king, I would go with something based on what the Norwegians wear...kind of midway between blue and grey:

(http://www.webstaff.no/321100%20Air%20Force%20Part%202%20Service%20Dresses/lat_201.gif)

(http://www.webstaff.no/321100%20Air%20Force%20Part%202%20Service%20Dresses/lat_101.gif)

But no way, gotta be grey. ::)

Only real option is to make all things equal. Nothing else will work too well in my opinion. Civilian uniforms with ranks attached will probably always look slightly odd placed right next to a military uniform.

Logic stand however that if a distinctive CAP coat can be manufactured for the TPU, then other types of coats can be made.

Which brings us full circle to equality. Just make a grey jacket cut exactly like a USAF service coat. Grey because its already established and anything else is just probably too out there to be accepted.

(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/Feuervogel24/CAPGrey2-1.jpg)

- Ask nicely to wear the USAF tie, USAF flight cap, and Service Cap with any distinctive features required (silver strap or device or something).

- If not go with that naval black cover suggested earlier with a black tie.

- Wear uniform Exactly like the USAF version.

- Wear grey shoulder marks on the shoulder straps. Wear slides instead of metal grade for the sake of not making the design too questionable to USAF. Also everyone has to buy the same insignia, less mistakes, less differences, equal (for the sake of solidarity with the non distinctive wearers if your still not convinced).

- Pick whatever shade of grey of jacket and tell members to use it to select the correct shade of civilian pants. Allow the different shades to be still worn without the jacket for the sake of less cost and complaints. Or spend the extra buck for all involved and offer uniform grey pants.

(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/Feuervogel24/CAPgrey-1.jpg)

- No offence intended to anyone. Just intended to show with a larger frame.

- oh and officer braid. Ask nicely for it.


This pretty much cuts it down the middle I think. Sure your going to have to pay more for a limited run jacket as opposed to the USAF jacket. The TPU was the same way, and the jacket is always completely optional. Other options might be cheaper, but they are compromises in other areas as well. This way makes everyone look pretty equal. Grey may not be the most popular color but it is at least currently accepted.

Great idea, I can see it now, Wings in the south will wear Grey and states in the north will wear blue.  Other wings will divide over the issue creating new wings.   I read about this typre of thing before and it did not turn out good for either side.  cadet against cadet, Senior member against senior member  >:D

It must be ... late, early, or something. 

Gray.. ugh. I just.. ugh. Call it denial, but I'm not ready for gray yet.

Quote from: a2capt on January 06, 2011, 08:06:37 AM
It must be ... late, early, or something. 

Gray.. ugh. I just.. ugh. Call it denial, but I'm not ready for gray yet.

I don't see why it has to be "grey" because it's "currently accepted," as Darkstar21 says.

There are a lot of people who don't like the grey/white...why do you think the CSU caught on and was so popular?

I've talked to a lot of people both within and without my squadron...everyone I've talked to is P.O.'d about the CSU being taken away, especially since the CAP membership was not given input into the decision.

Across the board, I haven't personally talked to anyone who LIKES the grey/white...but they wear it because they don't want to shave a beard off (I had a beard before joining CAP but shaved it off) or they're outside the arcane and archaic H/W standards for whatever reason, or just because it's cheap.

Personally, I think the all-grey options look (at best) like a State Trooper and (at worst) like a Civil War re-enactor of the Confederate Army (no offence intended to either).  It also makes me think of WWII Germany.

Darkstar21: Why does anything except grey have to be "out there?" The AF does not have a copyright on all shades of blue, just 1625.  Otherwise, why would they have allowed us BBDU's, blue flight suits, blue flight jackets, etc?

P.S. The Royal Norwegian Air Force is one of the few that wear their aircrew badges above the right pocket.  Canada does similarly, except theirs are "ground-trades" RAF-style "half-wings."

(http://mpmuseum.org/securuniform/airdeu/airdeu1.jpg)

I used the Norwegians because theirs are not quite blue but not quite grey either...surely there has to be a middle-ground somewhere between shade 1625 and being completely colourless.

The all-or-nothing-no-grey-area (pun intended) is rarely productive.

Frankly as far as wearing awarded military decorations on the distinct uniform, I'm seriously considering approaching my congressman to put some pressure on the services to allow former/retired members wearing "patriotic" uniforms specifically associated with American Legion, VFW, Civil Air Patrol, USCG Auxiliary the right to wear earned military decorations.   It's assine that the approach that the AF is taking, when in reality I believe you will already see American Legion/VFW uniform displaying their appropriate earned military decorations.

Also I would personally would like to see a black flight jacket with Command Patch (rank optional) authorized.   I'd also like to see a black knit watch cap with the "Civil Air Patrol, Auxiliary of the United States Air Force" lettering/logo on it.  These could be worn with the golf shirt/aviator shirt/grey pants combination.
RM         

 OK who hacked RM's account and what did you do with him?  ;_

Quote from: cap235629 on January 08, 2011, 06:59:22 PM
OK who hacked RM's account and what did you do with him?  ;_

I know right? This is really a 180 turn for you RM.
Every other branch allows for wear of medals/badges with civilian attire so long as they are worn "with pride" which means in the same general area as they are on the uniform. You are right, USAF needs to get on board with the rest of the military.

RADIOMAN, did someone slip something into your morning coffee?

Rather than a black flight jacket, I would like to see a "vintage blue" one become universal throughout CAP, wearable with any CAP uniform.  They're comfortable, they look good, they're warm, the USAF doesn't wear them, though they used to.

(http://www.soldiercity.com/images/products/600PIX/JKT-A715-NAVY_600PIX.JPG)

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 08, 2011, 06:26:48 PM
Also I would personally would like to see a black flight jacket...

I already did that, kept it sanitized though. Nobody can scream "your mixing military with civilian" clothing.

Quote from: FARRIER on January 09, 2011, 07:42:20 AM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 08, 2011, 06:26:48 PM
Also I would personally would like to see a black flight jacket...

I already did that, kept it sanitized though. Nobody can scream "your mixing military with civilian" clothing.

I just have all the bling on my flight jacket put on with Velcro...if I want to wear it in a non-CAP situation, just pull the insignia off, stash it in the pocket and GTG.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 08, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
RADIOMAN, did someone slip something into your morning coffee?

Rather than a black flight jacket, I would like to see a "vintage blue" one become universal throughout CAP, wearable with any CAP uniform.  They're comfortable, they look good, they're warm, the USAF doesn't wear them, though they used to.

(http://www.soldiercity.com/images/products/600PIX/JKT-A715-NAVY_600PIX.JPG)

Whats the link for this please?

The photo itself reveals: http://www.soldiercity.com/

Quote from: a2capt on January 10, 2011, 07:26:30 PM
The photo itself reveals: http://www.soldiercity.com/

I did look but couldnt find the exact picture.  ???

http://www.soldiercity.com/knox-armory-navy-blue-cwu-45p-flight-jacket.html :)

Quote from: a2capt on January 10, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
http://www.soldiercity.com/knox-armory-navy-blue-cwu-45p-flight-jacket.html :)

Thank you! I found it now. Page 5 of Alpha Jackets.

I have another uniform question. If you have regulation short hair but you have a beard or goatee. Are you able to wear the blue nomex flight suit instead of the sage green nomex flight suit? I see that you can wear the blue utility coveralls. But if you wanted to be part of the air crew can you wear the fireproof nomex material instead of the poly/cotton material?

Quote from: BradM on January 10, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
I have another uniform question. If you have regulation short hair but you have a beard or goatee. Are you able to wear the blue nomex flight suit instead of the sage green nomex flight suit? I see that you can wear the blue utility coveralls. But if you wanted to be part of the air crew can you wear the fireproof nomex material instead of the poly/cotton material?

Yes, you should wear the Blue NOMEX flight suit.

Quote from: BradM on January 10, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
I have another uniform question. If you have regulation short hair but you have a beard or goatee. Are you able to wear the blue nomex flight suit instead of the sage green nomex flight suit? I see that you can wear the blue utility coveralls. But if you wanted to be part of the air crew can you wear the fireproof nomex material instead of the poly/cotton material?

Yes.

Quote from: vento on January 10, 2011, 09:17:01 PM

Quote from: BradM on January 10, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
I have another uniform question. If you have regulation short hair but you have a beard or goatee. Are you able to wear the blue nomex flight suit instead of the sage green nomex flight suit? I see that you can wear the blue utility coveralls. But if you wanted to be part of the air crew can you wear the fireproof nomex material instead of the poly/cotton material?

Yes, you should wear the Blue NOMEX flight suit.

Thank you. It did seem common sense to do so. But in the CAPM 39-1 it doesn't say explicitly.

Quote from: BradM on January 10, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
I have another uniform question. If you have regulation short hair but you have a beard or goatee. Are you able to wear the blue nomex flight suit instead of the sage green nomex flight suit? I see that you can wear the blue utility coveralls. But if you wanted to be part of the air crew can you wear the fireproof nomex material instead of the poly/cotton material?

The blue flightsuit is an alternate uniform. It is authorized for personnel not meeting the standards for wearing the green flight suit.

If you have a beard or goatee, the blue flight suit is the only fire resistant (fireproof is not an accurate term) flight uniform option.

Thank you. I stand corrected "fire resistant".

Yes: the blue is for us fat and fuzzies, either cotton or nomex.