Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[Eclipse]

CAPM 39-1, says its the sole source for uniform information so why not believe it?

A) The board has the power to change the regulations on a whim.  Notification to the field is an administrative process not related to the actual powers of the board.

B) Despite its assertion to the contrary, 39-1 has not been the sole authority regarding uniform wear for most of the last 10 years, and certainly not since about 2005.

[sarmed1]

Wonder if CAP-USAF is aware of HMRS's uniform violations. ....

Again they likely are aware...as the previous CAP-USAF commander has been there (for more than 5 minutes) and I think last year the NER CAP-USAF commander was there as well as 3 or 4 CAP-RAP types every year.

Generally speaking its not CAP-USAF's job to enforce CAP's policies and regulations on their members, ony to ensure that CAP complies with the appropriate USAF directives and policies.   Based on historical precedant...CAP-USAF only seems to care about CAP uniforms when those uniforms (or the wearers by thier actions) may create confusion as to if someone is USAF or CAP...ie Blue epulates, TPU.  It woud be clear to me that a CAP member sporting HMRS ranger accessories is NOT a member of the USAF...  and if I recall correctly thats because the USAF directive to CAP is "...a uniform clearly distinctive to CAP...." or something along thsoe lines.

mk

[sarmed1]

Besides, what does HMRS do that can't be taught on the outside? What makes them so more special than any other groundpounder with exactly the same credentials

First I say go read thru the skill shets for each of the Ranger Ratings....that should provide you with that info specifically.
Personally I will say the spread of knowledge is not as drastic as it once was.  Years ago CAP's GSAR training program was non existant....there were heading topics for "training" for GTM and GTL, but it was up to local level to determine what was actually trained in each....to most people the Rescue part of SAR was use cell phone to call fire department, or even Search was limited to ELT (or worse..I once saw a team show up for a missing aircraft excercise without DF gear...there plan was to drive around and look for a crashed plane from their van....) HMRS has had specific training skills and objectives since the 70's that produced personnel capable of providing wilderness SAR comparable non-CAP SAR teams.
Now that was the past...since 2000ish CAP as a whole does a much better job of training their personnel to accomplish the ground SAR mission.

The area that HMRS trains in outside of the standard GTM curriculum are pretty much steep terrain evacuation, enhanced land navigation and outdoor/wilderness skills.  They are nothing special per say that couldnt be taught at any other school or even the local level; they just arent usually.  As I stated before the biggest reason they are taught is that is the skill sets needed by PA SAR teams to operate in PA....(Pennslyvania litterally means Penn's woods, we have a pretty good amount of "wilderness"), its not flat (a car goes off the road here and you pretty much have to use low angle hauling and lowering to get the patient up to the ambualnce)

mk

[SilverEagle2]

for all we know the NB approved it for wear and wanted it on the right sleeve or something crazy.

That is why the NEC clarified the NB information and stated the policy. If you read the minutes, you will see that.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

OK, so we're back to one thing and one thing alone when it comes to the HMRS appurtenances to the uniform, as well as to all our other uniform ills...

CAPM 39-1 NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN.
IT CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

[Rotorhead]

OK, so we're back to one thing and one thing alone when it comes to the HMRS appurtenances to the uniform, as well as to all our other uniform ills...

CAPM 39-1 NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN.
IT CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

Agreed. Maybe it could then exclude all the "Ranger" silliness.

[Eclipse]

I had to look up what "appurtenance" meant and am not ashamed to admit it...

[lordmonar]

OK, so we're back to one thing and one thing alone when it comes to the HMRS appurtenances to the uniform, as well as to all our other uniform ills...

CAPM 39-1 NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN.
IT CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

Agreed. Maybe it could then exclude all the "Ranger" silliness.

Has anyone thought that instead of just calling all the ranger bling silliness.......that maybe we could work with PAWG and come up with a happy compromise?

Just trying to do away with it will only keep the status quo....namely PAWG will do what they want dispite the regulations.

Here is my idea.   Change the ranger tabs...to small arcs that can be worn on the beret.  The HMRS patch can be shrunk down to a beret flash with the ranger rateing over the flash.

That way HMRS gets their bling....they get a cool hat and we can then hold them to all the rest of the regulations (like black or brown T-shirts.

[Spike]

^ Or arcs on the School Patch that is worn on BDU's.  One would wear the highest earned ranger "grade, rating, title etc.". 

No whistles, no chains, no multicam web belts, no scarves, no tabs and no blousing blues trousers during ranger "ceremonies".

Oh, and no slaughter of innocent rabbits so you can have a "cool story" to tell your Mom.     

[Майор Хаткевич]

Or...wear the BDUs as BDUs and do the fracking job without all that other stuff...*rolls eyes*

[Hawk200]

I would settle for simply allowing just the tabs, reasonably semi-subdued. They're pretty unique, there isn't much like them in the military at all.

Lose everything else. Yeah, it's a nice patch, but is it really necessary to have tabs and a patch?

As for a beret, they're a PITA. I wouldn't even bother.

Or...wear the BDUs as BDUs and do the fracking job without all that other stuff...

Or, try that.

[Rotorhead]

OK, so we're back to one thing and one thing alone when it comes to the HMRS appurtenances to the uniform, as well as to all our other uniform ills...

CAPM 39-1 NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN.
IT CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

Agreed. Maybe it could then exclude all the "Ranger" silliness.

Has anyone thought that instead of just calling all the ranger bling silliness.......that maybe we could work with PAWG and come up with a happy compromise?

Just trying to do away with it will only keep the status quo....namely PAWG will do what they want dispite the regulations.

Here is my idea.   Change the ranger tabs...to small arcs that can be worn on the beret.  The HMRS patch can be shrunk down to a beret flash with the ranger rateing over the flash.

That way HMRS gets their bling....they get a cool hat and we can then hold them to all the rest of the regulations (like black or brown T-shirts.

Shouldn't they be held to ALL the regulations just like everyone else?

[sarmed1]

Berets will just make the problmes worse.....because we all know that berets make you elite......
Back when the grade tabs were outlawed...the arc thing was propsed, it was pretty much shot down becuase they were going to force the tab issue at NB..which is where we are at now.
(I was a fan of deigning a badge that goes in place of the GTM badge, basic for R/1, senior for R/Adv and Master for R/Exp....that was you would have someithing for BDU's or service dress)
If someone is telling you that they blouse their blues because they are a "ranger" they are making it up as they go along, that has never been a "ranger" uniform variant....at least anytime in the past 20 years that I have seen in publication or been offically told about.

The general approval for "bling" (tabs, scarves, orange/red t-shirts, orange hats, whistle chains and pistol belts) has been granted by the NB, its only a matter of time until its incorporated into the 39-1...other than a rallying of Wing Commanders against HMRS at the next NB, its going to happen.  The only legitimate argument that bling haters have is that the Sq Commander dictates the uniform at the squadron level (or pending 39-1 release, if you prescribe to the theory that NB decisions are not effective until they are incorporated into a reg/manual or ICL)

mk

[lordmonar]

Shouldn't they be held to ALL the regulations just like everyone else?

Absolutely......so.....are we going to fire the entire wing?  This has been allowed to go on for way too long.  They are following the DEFACTO regulations.  That is because 20 years ago no one at national ever stomped on them they were allow to establish their traditions.

About the only time it ever becomes and issue is when a PAWGer goes out of state and gets a ration of fecal matter about his uniform.  So the PAWGers just mark it up to jealousy and everyone marks it up to Ranger Arrogance....and the poor cadet is just wearing his uniform the way he was told to.

So...here we are at 2010......just taking everything away seems to me to be too harsh.  So lets do a little horse trading and give them some reasonable bling and clean up their uniform a little.

[cap235629]

Shouldn't they be held to ALL the regulations just like everyone else?

Absolutely......so.....are we going to fire the entire wing?  This has been allowed to go on for way too long.  They are following the DEFACTO regulations.  That is because 20 years ago no one at national ever stomped on them they were allow to establish their traditions.

About the only time it ever becomes and issue is when a PAWGer goes out of state and gets a ration of fecal matter about his uniform.  So the PAWGers just mark it up to jealousy and everyone marks it up to Ranger Arrogance....and the poor cadet is just wearing his uniform the way he was told to.

So...here we are at 2010......just taking everything away seems to me to be too harsh.  So lets do a little horse trading and give them some reasonable bling and clean up their uniform a little.

It's more than the uniform. What about the attitude? Doesn't go beyond the wing? one word: KATRINA

And no, I am not rumor mongering. You can find AAR's out there that tell the story.

[RogueLeader]

So...here we are at 2010......just taking everything away seems to me to be too harsh.  So lets do a little horse trading and give them some reasonable bling and clean up their uniform a little.

I do not see it as harsh.  All other activities get a patch, if that.  WHY is HMRS ssssooooooo special that they are given a "bye"on insignia.

About the only time it ever becomes and issue is when a PAWGer goes out of state and gets a ration of fecal matter about his uniform.  So the PAWGers just mark it up to jealousy and everyone marks it up to Ranger Arrogance....and the poor cadet is just wearing his uniform the way he was told to.

I've seen the ranger arrogance w/o the bling.  Last I checked, we teach cadets to read regulations, esspecially 39-1.  I seem to recall numerous cadets getting hammered for not looking up things in 39-1 before posting here.  So, the cadet should know that the stuff is wrong when he's told to wear it.  Or am I asking too much of cadets?

[Hawk200]

(I was a fan of deigning a badge that goes in place of the GTM badge, basic for R/1, senior for R/Adv and Master for R/Exp....that was you would have someithing for BDU's or service dress)

That's not a bad idea either. Treat this ranger qualification as another ES one, there's a badge just like Ground Team. However, since it already includes GT quals, I'd say wear one or the other, not both.

(If someone is telling you that they blouse their blues because they are a "ranger" they are making it up as they go along, that has never been a "ranger" uniform variant....at least anytime in the past 20 years that I have seen in publication or been offically told about.

I've run into people that think they should be able to do that. Having been military and dealt with some of the Spec Ops type personnel, I don't agree. Ranger school may teach some advanced skills, but nothing that relates to the combat affiliation that blousing blues signifies.

[lordmonar]

It's more than the uniform. What about the attitude? Doesn't go beyond the wing? one word: KATRINA

And no, I am not rumor mongering. You can find AAR's out there that tell the story.

I can't do anything about attitude, except at a local level.  There is that fine line between being proud and feeling elite and ego driven arrogance.

We all have to deal with people who are full of themselves and who embarrass the organisation.

By toning down the bling we may be able to get a handle on the out of control egos.  I have not actually met or worked with any PAWGers or HMRS rangers.  But I truly feel that the over the top arrogance is probably the exception not the norm.

[Hawk200]

About the only time it ever becomes and issue is when a PAWGer goes out of state and gets a ration of fecal matter about his uniform.  So the PAWGers just mark it up to jealousy and everyone marks it up to Ranger Arrogance....and the poor cadet is just wearing his uniform the way he was told to.

The problem is that the "poor cadet" should have been told what the right thing to do is, or should have known enough that they looked it up. Still a failure. I've given a lot of cadets a lot of grief about wearing unauthorized T-shirts, and the answer is almost always "Well, that's what the encampment staff told me!"  (or something similar).

So...here we are at 2010......just taking everything away seems to me to be too harsh.  So lets do a little horse trading and give them some reasonable bling and clean up their uniform a little.

This still strikes me as them entitled to a consolation prize. I can be reasonable and accept something in good taste, but they don't have a right to it.

[lordmonar]

I've seen the ranger arrogance w/o the bling.  Last I checked, we teach cadets to read regulations, esspecially 39-1.  I seem to recall numerous cadets getting hammered for not looking up things in 39-1 before posting here.  So, the cadet should know that the stuff is wrong when he's told to wear it.  Or am I asking too much of cadets?

But holding a wing to the regulations should be a top down issue.

PAWG C/AB Newby reads 39-1 and say "that's not right"....he gets told..."well that's the way we do it here in PAWG" so he follows suit.  That is not really wrong.  What is wrong is that National and Region has allowed PAWG to ignore the rules for so long we now have to fight institutional inertia.

So....proper change managment says you should try to get buy-in from the organisation.  Explain why you want to make the change and make compromises that fit everyone's needs.

PAWG has a need for bling.  They have a need for the extra training and pride that goes with the ranger program.  The rest of us have a need to get PAWG out of the rediculous parts of their uniform.

So we should work with that.  Offer bling that is not so stupid looking.  Codify their bling and incorporate it into the regs. 

Doing that makes it easier to work with them and bring them back into the fold of the rest of us regs following wings.

Holding some cadet accountable for the policies of his leadership is just stupid.  Giving him a hard time just wastes our and his time.