Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[Spike]

^ The Cadet still makes the decision to sew patches on and wear a whistle, even though he or she knows its not in 39-1 or a letter from the current Wing King (Check PAWGs website). 

I will send a hawker away should they choose to show up wearing unauthorized uniform junk. 

[lordmonar]

^ The Cadet still makes the decision to sew patches on and wear a whistle, even though he or she knows its not in 39-1 or a letter from the current Wing King (Check PAWGs website). 

I will send a hawker away should they choose to show up wearing unauthorized uniform junk.

Yeah....but that is the point.....from the Hawker's point of view....it is NOT unauthorized uniform junk.  So you are going to give someone a hard time because his wing commander, the regional commander and national commander are not doing their job?

That sounds kind of harsh. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Hawk Arrogance is extremely terrible for cadets. A few years back a local unit had some cadets go to Hawk. A few months after Hawk our unit arranged for a KC-135 flight. Some of the cadets from that unit signed up to go, and knowing the issues that had ALREADY arisen in that time, an e-mail sent to all members was to make sure that their uniforms are IAW CAPM 39-1.

Lo and behold, the day we were to drive to the base, one of the cadets shows up with a ranger tab on his left shoulder (where the only thing authorized is the now optional wing patch in our state). We gave him two choices: patch off, or we'll see you when we get back. After arguing with myself and a SM who was a cadet for some 7 years prior that his "ranger patch" was authorized in CAPM 39-1, he decided that the KC-135 flight was more interesting than his patch. He ended up taking it off his uniform before we rolled from the unit.

[lordmonar]

And that illistrate my point.....the problem was not with the cadet but his chain of command and PAWG, NER, and National.

You sent out the E-mail...but Cadet Hawker thinks his uniform IS within 39-1 because no one has told him otherwise.

Not saying it was right...and your actions were an acceptable fix to the situation....but it is not fixing the root problem.

If somone else outside of your chain is mis-educating CAP members.....you doing spot corrections is only 1/4 the job.  You have to follow up the chain and make sure his commander is aware and makes the wider correction....because let's face it....even commanders don't know all the rules.  The wing commander and region commanders need to be notified and they need to take a stand to get their peers to toe the line.  Finally we need to National to step up and establish what that line is.

As it is today.......If I see someone outside my unit wearing something that is "not authorised"  I don't usually even say anything to them.  I may point out the regulations but that is all.  I do find out who their commander is and let them know what is going on....and point out the right regulations.  But that is far as I go.  Because if Cadet X says "My commander told me to wear this" IS an acceptable answer from the cadets point.  It is the commander at fault.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Lordmonar,

We're in IL, and the cadet only went to Hawk.

He was a C/CMSgt, and more or less knew 39-1, just not enough to admit he is wrong.

The problem for HIM began when HAWK staff told him that NB approved their bling-o and that they could wear it all, anywhere. As far as I am aware, only the wings who endorse the ranger crap wear the 'ranger patch' on the left sleeve, those being PAWG, FLWG, PRWG.

[Spike]

As far as I am aware, only the wings who endorse the ranger crap wear the 'ranger patch' on the left sleeve, those being PAWG, FLWG, PRWG.

I must have missed that interim change letter from National on that issue.  Point me to the section of 39-1 that states "wing commanders can move patches around on the BDU's even though they are dictated to a specific placement per 39-1". 

Wearing the patch in place of a Wing Patch, and not following existing guidance in 39-1 on the proper placement of Special Activity Patches creates elitism, and two separate classes of members in those wings.  The first class being "ordinary Joe member" the other being the "Ranger" or "better than everyone else member". 

[lordmonar]

Lordmonar,

We're in IL, and the cadet only went to Hawk.

He was a C/CMSgt, and more or less knew 39-1, just not enough to admit he is wrong.

The problem for HIM began when HAWK staff told him that NB approved their bling-o and that they could wear it all, anywhere. As far as I am aware, only the wings who endorse the ranger crap wear the 'ranger patch' on the left sleeve, those being PAWG, FLWG, PRWG.

I beleive that was what I was trying to say.

You can't really blame the cadet (no matter what his rank) if senior members at a national level activity give him bad information and his own commander does not correct him when he returns.

Again....the finger of blame is pointed not really at the cadet but at National on down for providing poor guidance.

[RogueLeader]

You know, Lordmonar, you are absolutely right!   It's not his fault, he was told wrong he didn't know.  It was a failure in leadership because they didn't enforce the standard.

Last I checked, as citazens we are all bound to the law, even if we never heard of some of the laws that are out there.  Using that logic I can get away with alot of things.

We are all responsible to others, but we answer for our own actions.  A couple weeks ago, we had a Class A inspection in the Army.  I was missing a ribbon that I didn't know I was authorized ( GWOT Service btw).  In my last Battalion, it wasn't authorized for me.  I didn't argue; just asked for clarification, and problem solved.

"Someone told me" is never an acceptable excuse "Sorry Officer, I was told that the speed limit was going to be upped from 35 to 55,  and that you guys wouldn't pull me over."  Whereas being able to say in CAPM 39-1 etc etc. Such and such is authorized in such and such a place is a valid response to a uniform issue.

I'm not expecting everyone to have 39-1 memorized; I don't; but having a good working knowledge of it is needed.

I just want everyone to take responsability for their own actions.  Thats it.

[Hawk200]

I'm not expecting everyone to have 39-1 memorized; I don't; but having a good working knowledge of it is needed.

And a good working knowledge would start with having read it with at least once.

[lordmonar]

You know, Lordmonar, you are absolutely right!   It's not his fault, he was told wrong he didn't know.  It was a failure in leadership because they didn't enforce the standard.

Last I checked, as citazens we are all bound to the law, even if we never heard of some of the laws that are out there.  Using that logic I can get away with alot of things.

Sure you can....you can go to the judge and tell him your story and if it sounds plausible he will let you off.  It is called mitigating circumstances.

We are all responsible to others, but we answer for our own actions.  A couple weeks ago, we had a Class A inspection in the Army.  I was missing a ribbon that I didn't know I was authorized ( GWOT Service btw).  In my last Battalion, it wasn't authorized for me.  I didn't argue; just asked for clarification, and problem solved.

Good for you.  But what if your last unit told you were authorised a unit citation medal.  You didn't see the order, but your battalion commander stood in front of everyone and said "pin them on boys!".  Then in your new unit someone challenged you....what then?

That is the situation we are dealing with now.

"Someone told me" is never an acceptable excuse "Sorry Officer, I was told that the speed limit was going to be upped from 35 to 55,  and that you guys wouldn't pull me over."  Whereas being able to say in CAPM 39-1 etc etc. Such and such is authorized in such and such a place is a valid response to a uniform issue.

A disagree.  "someone in authority told me it was okay" is an acceptable excuse within reason (let's not get into illegal orders and LOAC  ).  We are all followers.  We often are given contradictory orders.  In my 22 years on AD USAF I have many times have been given orders that were against regulations.  I knowing did them, after properly challenging them.  I have many, many, many, many times have been given wrong information my people who should have known the correct information.  I have been caught by the short hairs on that.....but my superiors listened to me and set me straight and more times then not set the idiot with the wrong information straight.

You can't fault people who are working in good faith for bad information.

I'm not expecting everyone to have 39-1 memorized; I don't; but having a good working knowledge of it is needed.

I just want everyone to take responsibility for their own actions.  Thats it.

The problem with 39-1 is that it is full of mis information.  It contradicts itself.  National won't update it.  On set of regulations says to do one thing another says to do something else.

Many cadets.....heck many AD USAF member have never opened the actual regulation or AFI and seen the source document about uniforms.  They go off of what they were told, crib sheets, and allow the base alterations shop do the work for them.  I know I never looked up the proper placement of my stripes on my ABUs.....I just took them in and they did it.

Personal responsibility is a good thing......but you have to look at good faith intentions as well.  C/CMSgt Hawker wore his bling in good faith.  He was instructed by other cadets and senior members who in good faith were simply passing on what they were told.   Someone dropped the ball.  That someone dropped it 20 years ago.  The only fix for it now is for National to take an intrest in it and make some changes.

My reason for posting was to give them some options other than "you are all wrong......take it off!"

[lordmonar]

I'm not expecting everyone to have 39-1 memorized; I don't; but having a good working knowledge of it is needed.

And a good working knowledge would start with having read it with at least once.

So...at what rank do we do that?

Do we really expect a 13-14 year old cadet on his first NCSA to be challenging a bunch of orange T-shirted, Ascot wearing, ranger crushing, tab wearing, pistol belt toting Cadet officers and Senior Members?

We already know that there are lots of ICLs and NB decisions that are NOT in the regulations.  We already know that no one at national every considered a lot of issues in the regulations (like NCO stripes on the CSUs).

I consider my knowledge of 39-1 to be very good....and even I get confused about all the different rules because of lack of consistency and because of my USAF background.

And just to put some of this into perspective....as far as the USAF is considered.....when I was last at Lackland (during the Sept 09 NB) the new trainees were given town liberty after graduation....a lot of them were sporting this little eagle pin on their uniforms over their name plates.  I asked them what it was......it was a pin for donating to the Combined Federal Campaign!  NOW I know AFI 36-2903......and I know that that pin was in no way, shape or form authorised.  But I did not yell at the new Airman.  Why?  Because he would say "My TI said I could".....and that my friends is the WORD OF GOD for a basic trainee!  Fight that.

[Hawk200]

I'm not expecting everyone to have 39-1 memorized; I don't; but having a good working knowledge of it is needed.

And a good working knowledge would start with having read it with at least once.

So...at what rank do we do that?

You're kidding right? Cadets shouldn't know about regulations?

Now you're a retired Air Force Master Sergeant, what did you do to correct the obvious uniform violation you spoke of? Did you make an attempt to follow up with the chain of command to clarify that CFC pins were only authorized for wear on base? Or did you let it go because "the TI told him"?

We can correct inappropriate uniforms, and show people where to find the right information. My TI showed us 35-10, passed it around to reinforce that what he expected of us was regulation. I had a day of class on regs in BMT, and another thing reinforced was "Ask someone if you can't find it". 

"It's not in the currently published reg" is not an acceptable excuse in any way shape or form. Allowing it is a failure of leadership.

[lordmonar]

"But my TI told me to"...."but my commander told me to"...are acceptable answers.

If I tell my cadets or seniors to do somethimg.....I want them to do it.   I don't want anyone giving them a hard time about it.

You can give me a hard time about...but not them.

I extend the same courtesy to othe chains of command.

In my entire career I was never given 35-10 or 36-2903.  I have a BMTS study guide and a PFE Study guide.  No one ever told me to look at 35-10.  I did because I'm that type of an NCO.

I correct MY people and keep them in line.  I encourage my peers (leaders in other squadrons) to do the same.  I communicate my concerns up the chain of command.

But I am not going to give the cadet from another squadron a hard time for doing what his squadron commander told him to do.

It's not right and it is not fair to the cadet.

As for the Airman with the pin.....I let him go with a shake of my head.  I think it is silly....but what's an old MSgt on TDY to do?  I am certainly not going to challange a TI's authority by brow beating an Airman Basic freash from graduation.

As for the "ask someon if you can't find it".....only works so far as the person you ask.   We teach the chain of command.  "Hey sir....can wear this Boonie hat"?......"Sure...go ahead"!

We depend on our superiors to know what the hell they are talking about.  If we feel they are mistaken....it is right and proper to challenge them (in private).....but we are constrained by the chain of command.

"It's not in the currently published reg" is an acceptable excues in CAP because national consitantly fails to keep them updated.  The regs say that once the NB votes on something it is law.  Obviously we can't hold someone to a regulation they can't find....because not everyone knows how to find the NB minutes.....but likewise if someone is following the guidance spelled out in those NB minutes....we can't hold them responsbile for the failure of national to do their job and up date the regulations.

It is a failure of leadership.....but not necessarily on the part of me and others at my level.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How do you go about challenging these decisions?

Our wing authorizes the Officer Service Cap for Cadet officers. The ICL also states that it is not to be worn outside of ILWG.

Given that a Wing Commander can authorize some things (certainly not all that Hawk crap though) for their wing, who in their right mind began telling cadets from across the country that they can wear their Hawk bling in ILWG?

Understanding that Hawk is like the Drummond Island MIWG used to have, it needs to be stopped and regulated.

And speaking of wings that let the 'ranger patches' slide, the current Volunteer magazine has an article about a PRWG cadet who received two lifesaving awards, and his picture in BDUs clearly shows his PR Ranger patch.

[lordmonar]

That is why I don't get too bent out of shape is some cadet not in my chain of command is wearing this sort of thing.

How do you challenge it?

You first set and maintain the standard for yourself and your unit.
Then you encourage your peers to do the same.
Then you talk to your wing commander about how you feel about this subject and urge him to make your case for you at region and national level.

I too feel it needs to be regulated....not eliminated....but regulated.  Eliminate the gross errors (orange T-shirt, pistol belts, ranger tabs and ascots).  Work with them to come up with a good compromise (an arc that goes over the wing patch for instance or on a beret).

Wing commanders can authorise items for their wing.  Unless it is clearly spelled out that is can only be worn in their wing...it is good for everywhere. 

As for who said they can wear their Hawk Bling outside of HMRS....well that would be the National Board.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

So...you should be happy that you only had a cadet wearing his ranger tab.....it could have been worse.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Oh, he had the whistle, but that was easy to take off. And even since that decision, either because it hasn't yet been ICL'd or updated in 39-1, I've never seen anyone in IL dressed like a PAWGer.

Either way, I don't see how someone in a wing half the nation away can regulate something for ILWG where things like berets, etc have their own ICLs.

[lordmonar]

Oh I agree with you.  Local units still have the right to dictate uniform wear. 

And I agree the lack of ICLs is an issue....but not a reglatory one....just a lack of adminstrative follow through.  The quote I posted came from Knowledge base....which NHQ considers reglatory.

But that just adds to my point about giving someone a hard time about this stuff.  No one really knows what is and is not allowed.

[arajca]

The NEC provided clarifiaction on what crapbling can be worn:
HMRS - Orange cap, ranger tabs (only one), HMRS activity patch with staff rocker if appropriate. Scarves, colored pistol belts, and orange t-shirts are specifically prohibited away from the activity.
NBB - Beret w/NBB device, activity patch.

These were in the May 2008 NEC minutes, pg 21.

Also, while immediate approval was granted for wear with the field uniform, AF approval was needed for wear with the bdu.

[RedFox24]

I've never seen anyone in IL dressed like a PAWGer.

Then you either don't get out much in the Wing or you run in a very tight circle in the Wing.  They show up every now and again at missions, weekend campouts and even come dressed that way to encampment until they get option of changing or going home.

I was on a ground team on a mission out of Marion once where we left a guy standing in the parking lot with his beret, whistle, ladder laced boots, ranger tab and coil of repelling rope around his neck/chest and waved by by at him that we were not taking him with us because he looked so stupid. 

They are in Illinois, just pretty few and far between, but they are there.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Thankfully Group 22 is spared most of that then.