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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: AE specialty track, senior rating , position experience time?
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Author Topic: AE specialty track, senior rating , position experience time?  (Read 1472 times)
447411
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: CO-072

« on: December 13, 2009, 07:02:06 PM »

Short version:  how long must I be an AEO to get an AE senior rating?

Longer version:

I notice that CAPP 215 states the time one needs to be an assistant AEO before earning a technician rating, page 2
"Each 215 Technician candidate must have served a minimum of 4 months ..."

Yet there is no time mentioned in the equivalent section for a senior rating, page 5:
"The 215 Senior candidate must have served in a unit AE position..."

I've been unable to find a time requirement elsewhere.  Master ratings do have a time requirement specified in CAPP 215.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 23,049

« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 08:34:37 PM »

There is no indication regarding time in service, therefore there is no requirement.

You simply have to have "served", to the subjective satisfaction of the respective commander, in one of these roles:

The 215 Senior candidate must have served in a unit AE position and performed a major aerospace education task listed below.
Positions:

1. Group AEO or group internal AEO or group external AEO
2. Cadet squadron AEO
3. Senior squadron AEO
4. Composite squadron AEO for cadets or AEO for senior members

It could be a year, a month, or a day.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,599

« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 09:40:15 PM »

Boy, I knew "internship" times varied greatly from specialty to specialty, but this is just crazy. 

Once they finish getting the new Officer Basic Course up and running, I really hope the NHQ PD folks focus on getting some sort of standardization in the specialty tracks.  Even if they don't redo each track, at a minimum they could spend a day or two going through them and come up with standard internship times and make those changes. 
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 8,783

« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 10:57:06 PM »

Quote
Position Experience: The 215 Senior candidate must have served in a unit AE
position and performed a major aerospace education task listed below.
Positions:
1. Group AEO or group internal AEO or group external AEO
2. Cadet squadron AEO
3. Senior squadron AEO
4. Composite squadron AEO for cadets or AEO for senior members
Tasks (any of these tasks may be accomplished anytime while in the 215 specialty
program):
1. Develop cadet or senior member aerospace education materials.
2. Present at or direct an aerospace education workshop or conference.
3. Register and participate in CAP approved college or university aerospace
education workshop.
4. Make an aerospace education presentation in a school classroom.
5. Present at or direct the aerospace education portion of a cadet encampment.
6. Serve at unit, wing, or region level as aerospace education advisor for the Cadet
Competition Team.
7. Prepare and submit a Brewer Award nomination package.
8. Recruit and train a senior member through successful completion of the 215T
rating.

According to the pamplet there is a two level requirement.

You have to hold the job AND perform one major project.
They key here is the term "major"......I would think that a major project would be one that takes around 4-6 months from planning to execution.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, MSgt, CAP
Nellis Composite Squadron
Eclipse
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Posts: 23,049

« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 11:09:55 PM »

I would think that a major project would be one that takes around 4-6 months from planning to execution.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but "major" is very subjective, and could mean anything from completion of AEX to a single rocketry day.

Just wrangling O-Rides for your cadets could be considered a "major" undertaking.
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Short Field
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,003

« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 02:09:06 AM »

Quote
performed a major aerospace education task listed below.

They key here is the term "major"......I would think that a major project would be one that takes around 4-6 months from planning to execution.

I have to disagree.  It says "a major aerospace education task listed below".    If I prepare and submit a Brewer Award nomination package, I just satisfied the requirement - and didn't take close to one month, much less four to six months.  Same for making a AE presentation in a classroom.  The tasks are clearly identified (at least clearly for CAP).

The harder part of earning the senior rating will be in satisfying the performance activity requirements:
Quote
(1) Develop and implement an aerospace education activity that will support
the learning objectives of cadets and/or senior members.
(2) Write and submit a Unit Plan of Action.
(3) Prepare and present aerospace education programs to teachers within the
local community.
(4) Attend a wing or region aerospace education conference, aerospace
education workshop, or the National Congress o n Aviation and Space
Education.
(5) Develop and maintain a collection of aerospace education resources to
support cadets, senior members, and the community.
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Wilson #2640
Eclipse
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Posts: 23,049

« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 11:18:59 AM »

Even those aren't exactly building the Great Wall...
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
Michael M
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 12:16:06 AM »

My absolute answer.  215T - 4 months; 215S - 6 months; 215M - 8 months if you aren't working with your DAE and are slow performing.  If you are working him/her, then 4 to 5 months each for 215S/M.  It is possible to advance from 215T to 215M in 12 to 14 months.

Your DAE should be your mentor, and you should be working with him/her on Wing events such as, Wing Conference AE breakout sessions, etc..
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Eclipse
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Posts: 23,049

« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 12:53:46 AM »

That's very nice, and all, but you can't have an "absolute answer" to something which doesn't have a definition.

As to working with the DAE, also nice, however if your wing has groups, that's the echelon a unit AEO is interacting with, not the DAE.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
Michael M
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 01:40:51 AM »

That's very nice, and all, but you can't have an "absolute answer" to something which doesn't have a definition.

As to working with the DAE, also nice, however if your wing has groups, that's the echelon a unit AEO is interacting with, not the DAE.

Guess that is what separates us.  As the DAE, I can supplement NHQ's regulatory ambiguity creating "definition" until told otherwise. 

As the Wing's DAE, I am the mentor for the Group and Squadron AEOs and expect the all AEOs to assist in Wing AE events.  I am not micro-managing, but put in place defined expectations because AEO PD advancement is tracked and trended in the Wing's AE Plan of Action.  Neither the Wing Commander nor I want AEOs who think AE is an easy fast track to Level IV without producing results.  My job as the DAE includes ensuring AEOs meet their PD requirements through agreed upon goals and time frames.  If an AEO isn't progressing in PD, this is an indication that a unit's AE program isn't working.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 23,049

« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 02:03:24 AM »

As the DAE, I can supplement NHQ's regulatory ambiguity creating "definition" until told otherwise. 

No, you can't.  However you can recommend a supplement to the Wing CC, but I don't believe a Wing CC can increase TIS
requirements for specialty tracks without NHQ approval.  Further, these approval's are done at the subjective discretion
of the member's commander, so while you can suggest a given time frame, the practical authority for the click-off is with the
Unit CC, as it should be.

As a Wing staffer you have no authority unless delegated as such, specifically, by the Wing CC.  There may be a dotted-line operationally because we're all on the same team, but you have no actual authority over the group or unit AEO's.

If an AEO isn't progressing in PD, this is an indication that a unit's AE program isn't working.

Maybe - or maybe its simply an indication that the person doing the job, well, isn't interested in progressing.  If the unit is pulling AEX every year, all the seniors have a Yeager-bomb, cadets are out of o-rides, and the skies above the unit are hazy with rocket smoke, I'm not going to be all that concerned if the person posted as AEO isn't personally interested in  the badge.

In some cases, especially at the Group level, the AEO might just be the CC, in which case as long as the work is getting done, POA's submitted, and the units are successful, whether the AEO is enrolled in the AE track is irrelevant.

I'm a strong advocate of PD, and I believe it makes for a better member, but some people just aren't interested.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:27:47 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
Michael M
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 10:18:54 AM »

As the DAE, I can supplement NHQ's regulatory ambiguity creating "definition" until told otherwise. 

No, you can't.  However you can recommend a supplement to the Wing CC, but I don't believe a Wing CC can increase TIS
requirements for specialty tracks without NHQ approval.  Further, these approval's are done at the subjective discretion
of the member's commander, so while you can suggest a given time frame, the practical authority for the click-off is with the
Unit CC, as it should be.

As a Wing staffer you have no authority unless delegated as such, specifically, by the Wing CC.  There may be a dotted-line operationally because we're all on the same team, but you have no actual authority over the group or unit AEO's.

If an AEO isn't progressing in PD, this is an indication that a unit's AE program isn't working.

Maybe - or maybe its simply an indication that the person doing the job, well, isn't interested in progressing.  If the unit is pulling AEX every year, all the seniors have a Yeager-bomb, cadets are out of o-rides, and the skies above the unit are hazy with rocket smoke, I'm not going to be all that concerned if the person posted as AEO isn't personally interested in  the badge.

In some cases, especially at the Group level, the AEO might just be the CC, in which case as long as the work is getting done, POA's submitted, and the units are successful, whether the AEO is enrolled in the AE track is irrelevant.

I'm a strong advocate of PD, and I believe it makes for a better member, but some people just aren't interested.

Come on, you aren't the only person with common sense in CAP.  Everything was done with approval, and according to CAPR 5-4 and the squadron commanders are involved.

I am going to drop out of CAP Talk and spend my time not becoming a "seasoned and salty" CAP Talk expert.  My time will be better spent working out solutions instead of wasting time here looking for assistance.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,698

« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 11:38:09 AM »

Per 50-17, a wing cannot change PD requirements. They are the same for all members. By adding a TIS requirement when none exists from National, you are violating CAPR 50-17. You may say that it won't affect their promotions due to TIG requirements, but if someone starts in the track late, it can.

Following the steps in 5-4 doesn't mean the supplement you created is legal.

As for your complaint about wasting time because someone informed you your solution is in violation of CAP regs, well, failure to follow our own regs is constant complaint against and within CAP. Many of us here understand this and are trying to help others understand it. If you feel following the regs is a waste of your time because you don't agree with them, maybe you should spend your time reviewing the regs or serving elsewhere.
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CAP_truth
Forum Regular

Posts: 179

« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2009, 01:17:57 PM »

Per CAPR 280-2 no aerospace education officer can progress to the next level under 4 months except by approval of the DAE of your wing.
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Cadet CoP
Wilson
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: AE specialty track, senior rating , position experience time?
 


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