CDIs must attend church and hold a position in it?

[davidsinn]

According to the brand new CCOP that just came out you must attend church(/synagogue/mosque etc..) and hold a leadership position in your church(/synagogue/mosque etc..)

So that rules out myself who is a Christian but chooses not to attend church and all atheists and agnostics and heck even the guy that wants to attend services but can't do to holding down a job to support his family. How is that even remotely right and just? I've known plenty of  "church leaders" with no character or morals and a few atheists that are among the most upstanding ethical and moral people I know.

What does religion have to do with developing character and ethics? Why does one have to attend church to instill these in our cadets?

[dwb]

Why does one have to attend church to instill these in our cadets?

Because the Chaplain Corps says so. 

Fortunately, CAPR 52-16 still allows for any senior member to lead the character development discussions.

[Spike]

A complete CDI application package consists of the following:

o A completed CAPF 35A (Character Development Instructor Application) signed by the unit CC where the applicant is assigned.

o An official transcript or transcripts documenting a minimum of 60 semester hours (or 90 quarter hours) of college study beyond a high school diploma attained from a school or schools listed in current edition of Accredited Institutions of Postsecondary Education, published by the American Council on Education (ACE).

o A recommendation from the applicant's local religious official (i.e. pastor, priest, rabbi etc.) who is a member of a faith group listed by the Armed Forces Chaplain's Board. This recommendation must clearly state that (1) the applicant is spiritually, morally and emotionally qualified to serve as a character development instructor, and (2) the applicant has held a leadership position in the church/or religious equivalent (i.e. ward, synagogue, temple) for at least 2 years. (Important note: Since previous recommendations have seldom contained the necessary wording, we have designed a form and cover letter to be mailed directly to the religious official by the Wing Chaplain and then returned to NHQ. Wing chaplains may obtain an electronic file of these documents by emailing the NHQ Chaplain Corps Program Administrator at: ChaplainCorps@capnhq.gov )

o Verification of CAP Senior Member status.

o Documentation that all portions of Level I have been completed.

So now I am confused.  Do I need a CDI on my staff, or can I just have any Senior Member lead a Character Development Discussion.  If that is the case, why would the Chaplain Corps even put something like this out??

I also believe that just because someone believes in a God, or higher power does not equate to that person being more moral, ethical or just.  I also think we need to leave religion OUT OF CAP.  We should be following Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity rules established by the DoD here, and forcing one religious viewpoint on a bunch of Cadets seems to me to be violating those rules.   

[Flying Pig]

There was an entire thread about this topic a few months ago.

[Lt Oliv]

The CDI system is broken.

Included in the instructions for a CDI are several disclaimers that a CDI is not a chaplain, cannot do certain things that a chaplain can do and, by the way, did we mention that a CDI is not a chaplain?

Yet, if you look at the guidelines for a Chaplain, you will find that CDI is basically set up to be a catch-all for clergy who are otherwise not eligible to be Chaplains. Like RM Chaplains, CAP Chaplains require ecclesiastical endorsement. That means that there are many perfectly legitimate members of the clergy excluded from serving in the RM as Chaplains. So you went to seminary, you have a job working in a church, synagogue or mosque, but no "recognized body" can sign off on you? Sorry.

I see why CAP created this position. Now a Roman Catholic deacon or an unaffiliated Rabbi or countless other members of the clergy who do not belong to a group listed with the military can serve in a chaplain-ish role.

However, there are many fine lay people who want to do the job. And with changing the position from MLO to CDI, we need to take a long, hard look at what we've created.

I could buy MLO being a quasi-chaplain role. But nowhere in the title of CDI is religious affiliation implied, nor should it be required.

I understand why the RM sets the bar so high. It would be a heck of a thing if you were one online ordination away from a commission. However, for our purposes, I think requiring the ecclesiastical endorsement is a bit silly. Just evaluate each individual. If they actually went to seminary and/or they are employed as a full time cleric by a religious group, let them be Chaplains and leave CDI to lay people who want to be involved in the CD program.

With that rant out of the way, I will address two of Spike's concerns.

In the absence of a CDI or Chaplain, you can have someone else lead the discussion.

And to your latter concern, no one is forcing any religion on cadets. Just as the RM has chaplains of all affiliations, so does CAP. The role of the chaplain is not to take the place of your religious functionary (though that is how they are portrayed on MASH), but to offer guidance and moral support to ALL members regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof.

So, a Baptist Chaplain should, in theory, be leading the same type of discussion with cadets that a Jewish or Catholic Chaplain would lead, with none of the aforementioned discussions serving as an effort to convert anyone, or insert religion into the program.

Chaplains, regardless of denomination, have very useful skills in counseling and crisis management. We use them just like the RM does.

[Eclipse]

So now I am confused.  Do I need a CDI on my staff, or can I just have any Senior Member lead a Character Development Discussion.

A CDI is not required and any member may lead CD sessions.

[jimmydeanno]

A CDI is not required and any member may lead CD sessions.

Not picking on your comment here, but I think it is absolutely absurd that a "Character Development Instructor" isn't required to instruct Character Development Lessons.

It seems as though there is a disconnect between what qualifications are needed to be a CDI and the ones that are imposed.  Why have a position/title and a program that is intended to have a CDI instruct, then say that anyone can instruct it...

[Eclipse]

It seems as though there is a disconnect between what qualifications are needed to be a CDI and the ones that are imposed.  Why have a position/title and a program that is intended to have a CDI instruct, then say that anyone can instruct it...

I don't disagree, but there you have it.

You can't very well require a staff posting that itself requires religious affiliation in a non-secular organization.  Considering the fact that the whole direction of CD is non-religious, even in changing the name because the "Moral Leadership" implies a religious guide, I had to read the line about requiring religious affiliation for the rating several times to insure it said what it said.

[davidsinn]

It seems as though there is a disconnect between what qualifications are needed to be a CDI and the ones that are imposed.  Why have a position/title and a program that is intended to have a CDI instruct, then say that anyone can instruct it...

I don't disagree, but there you have it.

You can't very well require a staff posting that itself requires religious affiliation in a non-secular organization.  Considering the fact that the whole direction of CD is non-religious, even in changing the name because the "Moral Leadership" implies a religious guide, I had to read the line about requiring religious affiliation for the rating several times to insure it said what it said.

Oddly enough my unit got 2 findings on our SUI for not having a properly appointed CDI and not submitting F34's due to lack of properly appointed CDI.

[Eclipse]

It seems as though there is a disconnect between what qualifications are needed to be a CDI and the ones that are imposed.  Why have a position/title and a program that is intended to have a CDI instruct, then say that anyone can instruct it...

I don't disagree, but there you have it.

You can't very well require a staff posting that itself requires religious affiliation in a non-secular organization.  Considering the fact that the whole direction of CD is non-religious, even in changing the name because the "Moral Leadership" implies a religious guide, I had to read the line about requiring religious affiliation for the rating several times to insure it said what it said.

Oddly enough my unit got 2 findings on our SUI for not having a properly appointed CDI and not submitting F34's due to lack of properly appointed CDI.

Those should not be findings - the most they can be is "observations" since a CDI is not required by the program.

Your response should be to that effect.

[davidsinn]

It seems as though there is a disconnect between what qualifications are needed to be a CDI and the ones that are imposed.  Why have a position/title and a program that is intended to have a CDI instruct, then say that anyone can instruct it...

I don't disagree, but there you have it.

You can't very well require a staff posting that itself requires religious affiliation in a non-secular organization.  Considering the fact that the whole direction of CD is non-religious, even in changing the name because the "Moral Leadership" implies a religious guide, I had to read the line about requiring religious affiliation for the rating several times to insure it said what it said.

Oddly enough my unit got 2 findings on our SUI for not having a properly appointed CDI and not submitting F34's due to lack of properly appointed CDI.

Those should not be findings - the most they can be is "observations" since a CDI is not required by the program.

Your response should be to that effect.

The problem is we had a "CDI" who met all of the qualifications but the paperwork was never sent up for some reason. So now we have a new one who I believe just sent the paperwork last week.

[dwb]

Those should not be findings - the most they can be is "observations" since a CDI is not required by the program.

FYI, "Observations" are "Areas of Concern" now.  And Findings can be A-Findings and B-Findings depending on the degree to which they impact mission execution.

That is all. 

[Eclipse]

Those should not be findings - the most they can be is "observations" since a CDI is not required by the program.

FYI, "Observations" are "Areas of Concern" now.  And Findings can be A-Findings and B-Findings depending on the degree to which they impact mission execution.

That is all.

Yeah, I considered mentioning that, but wasn't sure those terms were universally in the field, yet.  I know they are CI-grades, but are they SUI grades as well (I have to do one Sunday).

[Eclipse]

The problem is we had a "CDI" who met all of the qualifications but the paperwork was never sent up for some reason. So now we have a new one who I believe just sent the paperwork last week.

That's fine, but doesn't change the issue at the inspection level.  I've seen more issues with inspectors who interject their opinion and record them as findings.

[lordmonar]

So now I am confused.  Do I need a CDI on my staff, or can I just have any Senior Member lead a Character Development Discussion.  If that is the case, why would the Chaplain Corps even put something like this out??

I also believe that just because someone believes in a God, or higher power does not equate to that person being more moral, ethical or just.  I also think we need to leave religion OUT OF CAP.  We should be following Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity rules established by the DoD here, and forcing one religious viewpoint on a bunch of Cadets seems to me to be violating those rules.   

Not wanting to get into Chaplain bashing.....but the ML/CD program is and always has been an extention of the chaplain corps.

[Lord of the North]

Just to keep everybody straight on the entries used for CIs and SUIs:
CAPR 123-3 para 4e states "Finding. The use of "A-Finding" and "B-Finding" is limited to Compliance Inspection and Staff Assistance Visit Reports ONLY. Subordinate Unit Inspection (SUI) reports will continue to use "Finding".

[Eclipse]

Just to keep everybody straight on the entries used for CIs and SUIs:
CAPR 123-3 para 4e states "Finding. The use of "A-Finding" and "B-Finding" is limited to Compliance Inspection and Staff Assistance Visit Reports ONLY. Subordinate Unit Inspection (SUI) reports will continue to use "Finding".

That's what I thought.  CI's and SUI's may look the same on the surface, but they are different animals under the surface.

[Levi]

This comment is limited to the presentation and oversight of a discussion regarding morals and ethics with cadets or senior members during a regularly scheduled squadron meeting. Administrative responsibility recognizes the point that well trained and experienced facilitators are preferable to untrained and experienced facilitatitors. Further, well trained and experienced facilitators are to be preferred over untrained and inexperienced facilitators. The "powers that be" are fully aware that an ATS accredited M.Div. degree necessarily contains graduate level work in ethics and morals that forces the genuine consideration and participation in a more global than local, and a more inclusive as opposed to exclusive study of the decision making process of people of all ages, races, genders, faith groups, and geographical locations. This intensive and required course content is not required of many other disciplines. In setting the standard as high as headquarters has, they have demonstrated that they care very much about ensuring, as much as is humanly possible, an equitable and quality experience for the cadets as well as the senior member of CAP. The fact that CAP understands that this high level of expectation will not be available everywhere, to everyone, all the time, can be seen in their making allowances as needed and as judged appropriate by each local commander. I am new to CAP and I know that as a newbie I have much to learn. From an "outsider's" perspective, though, the rules, as they are written, make sense to me.

[lordmonar]

Sure...and I understand that.  But there are lots of routes to becoming a fully qualified and learned expert on ethics, character development and global thinking then being a member of a religion.

You have cut out all of the Philophy PhDs, as well as the psychologists.

On of my problems with SOME chaplains (CAP, BSA, AD USAF, et al) is that don't do their job as written and use it as an opportunity to spead their version of religion.

[DogCollar]

Sure...and I understand that.  But there are lots of routes to becoming a fully qualified and learned expert on ethics, character development and global thinking then being a member of a religion.

You have cut out all of the Philosophy PhDs, as well as the psychologists.

On of my problems with SOME chaplains (CAP, BSA, AD USAF, et al) is that don't do their job as written and use it as an opportunity to spread their version of religion.

No doubt that there are chaplains that take advantage of the position to proselytize members.  That is completely innappropriate in CAP and said Chaplain would and should be subject to termination.

I will not begin to speak for the Chaplain Corps, even though I am a member.  However, I will try and touch on a few things:

1.  Ecclesiastical Endoresement--the reason for this is because it is required by the United States Military, and CAP Chaplains are recognized as a force multiplier by the military.  We have no choice but to follow Pentagon guidelines in this matter.

2.  CDI Instructors being a member of a faith body, is because, well, it falls under the Chaplain Corps.  If Character Development Instruction was moved to Cadet Programs then that caveat would go away.  In not advocating for that, BTW.

3.  Form 34's must be turned in by every unit, even if there isn't a Chaplain of CDI.  It is the responsibility of the unit commander to turn them in even if all that is filled in are zeros.