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RiverAux
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« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2009, 11:32:06 PM »

I don't really think this proposal would provide enough of an incentive to drive people away from the other jobs. 
 
Keep in mind it would have absolutely no impact on anyone's advancement until they were ready to become a Lt. Col. and that the percentage of senior members that get to that rank through the PD system is pretty low anyway. 
 
I really don't think that there are many CAP members looking that far ahead into their CAP careers such that they will not do a particular staff job because it may limit their promotion 10 years in the future. 
 
Basically you're saying that CAP members won't do something unless there is a chance of promotion in it.  Wasn't I just castigated in another thread for suggesting the use of a similar incentive to get people interested in being a commander? 
 
 
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2009, 11:49:19 PM »

Basically you're saying that CAP members won't do something unless there is a chance of promotion in it.  Wasn't I just castigated in another thread for suggesting the use of a similar incentive to get people interested in being a commander?

Your mistaken premise that that these things need to be changed.  People need to be interested in being commander because they desire to do it, not as a "check off box," for some promotion to Lt Col.

If we promote a culture of service in our units where 1) people take staff positions that end up two people deep (i.e. Maintenance Officer and assistant) 2) there is mentor-ship in the positions (be it from a high echelon with true mentor-ship not merely sending people blindly to the regulations and supplements) and 3) if we promote the idea that a commander needs assistance from the staff and that anyone in "active participation" be prepared to assume leadership (be it as the full time commander, or temporary) if necessary we will have solid units.

People in staff positions, I will contend, are at least as important as a person in Command.  One might even say that the success of the commander is based on effective staffing.  The Commander alone doing it all and everyone flying happily does not a squadron make.  Thus, your premise that the specialty tracks somehow lead to promotion is not commiserate to the notion that staffers be dedicated to running a program at their level. 


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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2009, 01:04:35 AM »

Guys, maybe I'm a bit slow today but, what is the correlation between specialty track and PD advancement?   Even though I have a Master rating in a"simple" track, I still ended up in numerous leadership positions, mentor at the "executive" OE track level and, still, play an active part in CAP. Oh yeah, I do have a Wilson Cert (2085).    Why would I need a Master rating in a "complex" specialty track?  I think leadership skills are learned over and above a technical track.
Many members bring a complex set of skills to the table before they join.  Picking a specialty track is more of an interest.  I don't think it should be a limiting factor in promotion; especially when advancing thru the PD program.  To me, promotion should be based on current requirements and the talent and desire to hold any leadership position. 
It is my opinion we should only promote those willing to take on certain positions(not just command); no matter what PD level you have finished.  It's not like we get paid any differently now, is it....    ;D
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RiverAux
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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2009, 01:31:43 AM »

FW, I am trying to more explicitly link high-level CAP rank to some demonstration of leadership capabilities.  The basic building block of obtaining CAP rank is progression through the senior member PD program which requires progression in a specialty track.  It is my contention that some tracks require more leadership and organizational ability than others and that should be recognized.
 
Quote
If we promote a culture of service in our units where 1) people take staff positions that end up two people deep (i.e. Maintenance Officer and assistant) 2) there is mentor-ship in the positions (be it from a high echelon with true mentor-ship not merely sending people blindly to the regulations and supplements) and 3) if we promote the idea that a commander needs assistance from the staff and that anyone in "active participation" be prepared to assume leadership (be it as the full time commander, or temporary) if necessary we will have solid units.

Then you should join the CG Aux.  They get their staff positions filled in just this way.  They have absolutely no professional development program at all and even less of an incentive to do these jobs.  Yep, you will get office insignia that look like rank, but no titles.  Actually, in my experience, most CG Aux staff officers at the local unit level actually do more than most CAP squadron staff officers since most CG Aux staff officers are actually running operational programs of some kind or another rather than just trying to keep the unit functional. 
 
But that is not the way CAP has chosen to operate and some seem to have the mistaken impression that the CAP PD program is anything other than an incentive based system to get CAP members to do certain things.  The senior member PD program rewards CAP members for doing things that CAP wants done and that reward is a Level award and a promotion and is not a generic leadership development program for the sake of the members as is the cadet program.  This is why you have to spend time in certain staff jobs to complete a track level and get a promotion.
 
Now, given the CG Aux experience, I think it quite possible that CAP could function just as well if we dumped the entire PD program.  I don't really see any noticable difference in the qualities or abilities of CAP or CG Aux staff officers at any level.  But, I don't see that happening, so I've been looking at ways to at least make what we have somewhat meaningful. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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arajca
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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2009, 01:40:44 AM »

In an ideal world, where every unit has enough people to full staff the org chart, with assistants/deputies, your idea might be feasible. In the world we deal with where members wear multiple hats, it isn't.

Once a good system is set up, anyone can maintain it with little or no leadership ability (that includes ES and AE). Straightening out an inherited mess, even in something as 'simple' as admin, shows strong leadership. Someone who knows their job makes it look easy. Someone who doesn't may think it's extremely difficult and complex.

I have a tech rating in ES. It was not complex, nor did it require any leadeship experience or ability.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 01:49:09 AM by arajca » Report to moderator   Logged
Major Carrales
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« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2009, 02:21:22 AM »

Squadron is spelled S-Q-U-A-D-R-O-N and flotilla is spelled F-L-O-T-I-L-L-A, and that is where the similarity ends.  All matter off folly befalls us all when people try applying CAP policy models on the USCGAux and USCGAux policy models to CAP.  They are two different organizations born of different needs and focus.

Here is the thing River, you are trying to solve "social" ills with "political/policy" changes.  While our government continues to try that (trying to address problems of everything from education to unemployment; economy and society, with political solutions via new laws and programs which end up spending millions and doing little), it should be mentioned that the limiting factors are the "social" cultures that sometime manifest themselves.

If your squadron is a true Composite Squadron where everyone is working in a Whole CAP approach (meaning cadets get good attention from everyone, flying is done and supported by everyone from the cadet folks to the ground team and where ground assets and aviation assets work together in fraternity), squadron command is not a drag.

If you are in a Senior or Cadet Squadron, is everyone pulling together to get the job done?  Or is it on or two "guys" doing it all?

I'll tell you this...no one would want to command if they were doing it all and everyone else was just following the primrose path.  Fix that and there will be lots of folks seeking commands.

What is needed is an atmosphere that alters the culture of a unit, not provides more policy and regulation.
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2009, 02:47:30 AM »

Iíve never noticed any correlation between a memberís specialty track and their leadership ability. Adult volunteers bring their life experiences into the squadron, which will prepare them for leadership more than anything written in a CAP pamphlet.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2009, 03:11:53 AM »

In an ideal world, where every unit has enough people to full staff the org chart, with assistants/deputies, your idea might be feasible. In the world we deal with where members wear multiple hats, it isn't.

In most cases people wear multiple hats because...

1) There are not enough members in the squadron for the important roles to be spread around.

2) The commander is incapable of delegating workload properly.

Either is a fairly easy fix if the parties involved are willing.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 03:15:41 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


RiverAux
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« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2009, 04:32:22 AM »

Squadron is spelled S-Q-U-A-D-R-O-N and flotilla is spelled F-L-O-T-I-L-L-A, and that is where the similarity ends.  All matter off folly befalls us all when people try applying CAP policy models on the USCGAux and USCGAux policy models to CAP.  They are two different organizations born of different needs and focus.
Whether your knew it or not, your idealistic view of the way things should work in CAP is much more simillar to what the CG Aux uses than the real world of CAP -- I was just pointing that out. 
 
Quote

 What is needed is an atmosphere that alters the culture of a unit, not provides more policy and regulation.
Okay, if policy issues should not be addressed through policy, please start a thread describing how we should be doing things and in particular how to do it without changing a policy or regulation. 
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2009, 04:45:32 AM »

Okay, if policy issues should not be addressed through policy, please start a thread describing how we should be doing things and in particular how to do it without changing a policy or regulation.

Ho-hummm... The idea is that pages of new regulation and pamphlets will not solve the matters you discuss.  You are proposing adding layer upon layer of new policy where none is warranted using the mantra that we need more leadership or something. 

You also demean and suggest that some Spec Tracks are somehow too easy and others are somehow more difficult using nothing more than your own subjective opinion on the matter.

The true answer lies in each unit.  When people join a unit what do they see?  How are they "brought it?"  Is it into an environment of professional service to ones community, state and Nation or is it into an environment lax in its operation?  Do new people come to a nexus of something special, or is there some level of "self-loathing?"  Do the people have energy to pass on, or is there lethargy?

These things have to be faced and corrected from "below," not from stacks of new regulations.  Leadership cannot be legislated, it must come from individuals.

Also, stop talking about the USCGAux as some sort of "paradise," they have their problems as well.  The main issue here is that some of you think that CAP is some sort of basket case and everything is falling apart.  Fact is, we are in pretty good shape.
 
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RiverAux
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« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2009, 10:35:43 PM »

Quote
Also, stop talking about the USCGAux as some sort of "paradise," they have their problems as well.
I wasn't.  You were the one who was saying that we should do things the way CG Aux does -- you just didn't know it. 

On a broader scale we have things that we can learn from them and they have things they can learn from us.  I don't see either one as having any significant overall advantage over the other.  Just like the Army and Marines have some important differences, they also have a lot of similarities in what they're trying to do and each can learn from the other. 
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2009, 12:56:19 AM »

  You were the one who was saying that we should do things the way CG Aux does -- you just didn't know it. 

Who agrees that is what I said?  Let's hear a shout out!!!
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2009, 02:42:47 AM »

I just say "cool it."
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« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2009, 12:35:02 AM »

River,
     The fix for the problem that you have mentioned is a very simple one. A Commitment to Excellence in whatever your specialty track is. You can show leadership in that way, by doing the absolute best that you can do.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2009, 01:05:12 AM »

River,
     The fix for the problem that you have mentioned is a very simple one. A Commitment to Excellence in whatever your specialty track is. You can show leadership in that way, by doing the absolute best that you can do.

+100

And Commander do their job to ensure that you are in fact ready to accept the responsibilities that go with the Specialty Rateing, PD Level and/or promotion.

Making things "harder" and still allow people to pencile whip it or take short cuts just means more short cuts and pencile whipping.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2009, 01:15:20 AM »

Making things "harder" and still allow people to pencile whip it or take short cuts just means more short cuts and pencile whipping.

+1 - Which results in what you see today - some members taking things organically, working the program, and taking the long road, watching others pass by them because of shortcuts and relationships with someone who has a golden pen.

In the end its really the "man in the mirror", but in the meantime, that's not really a way to motivate volunteers or build an informed leadership.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2009, 03:47:47 AM »

River,
     The fix for the problem that you have mentioned is a very simple one. A Commitment to Excellence in whatever your specialty track is. You can show leadership in that way, by doing the absolute best that you can do.
A fine statement and it is what everyone should be doing.  However, the fact that those who take this tact are rewarded exactly the same as those who choose easier roles cheapens the efforts of everyone.  What you are doing is ensuring equal outcomes, not equal opportunities. 
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arajca
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2009, 04:54:58 AM »

River,
     The fix for the problem that you have mentioned is a very simple one. A Commitment to Excellence in whatever your specialty track is. You can show leadership in that way, by doing the absolute best that you can do.
A fine statement and it is what everyone should be doing.  However, the fact that those who take this tact are rewarded exactly the same as those who choose easier roles cheapens the efforts of everyone.  What you are doing is ensuring equal outcomes, not equal opportunities.
Of course the fact that your "easy" roles are required to keep units functioning, while most of your "hard" ones are not plays no role whatsoever, does it?
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RiverAux
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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2009, 10:46:39 PM »

Sure, it does.  Paperwork shuffling positions are very important to any organization, but notice that most of the time those in the more "operational" roles (whatever that may be in a particular organization) are generally recognized with higher pay and faster promotions because there are some essential differences in the difficulty of their jobs and their direct relationship to the purpose of the organization.

The person filing the paperwork isn't going to make nearly as much money as the salesman at the auto dealership. 
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lordmonar
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2009, 10:48:33 PM »

Still trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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