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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Learning to fly in CAP
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Author Topic: Learning to fly in CAP  (Read 13287 times)
ryan s
Recruit

Posts: 11

NY 135 website
« on: October 07, 2006, 10:31:00 PM »

what classes are avalible to learn to fly?
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cadet airman Ryan scott
ner-ny-135 compsite sq.
capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 11:38:00 AM »

Ryan, your orientation flights are a beginning and a good orientation pilot will teach you some of the elementary flight stuff.  Most Wings offer flight scholarships to cadets, but they are competitive.  Once you are old enough and have obtained some cadet rank, there are powered and glider encampments in the summertime that will teach flight training.  If you are fortunate enough to be near an military base that has a flying club, you may be able to take flight training at a good discount using club aircraft and instructors.  There is a three week school in Alabama that offers private pilot training for about $4,000.00 that seems a good deal.  You are totally immersed in flight training for 3 weeks and are ready for your private flight test at the end of it.  You may be able to find a squadron offering ground school near you or you can complete ground school on the internet.  There are a million and one ways to get into aviation if you really want to and now is the time.  All of us old f-rts will be retiring (mandatory Airline pilot age is 60) that were trained during Viet Nam.  A lot of slots will be opening up.  A lot of regional (small) airports are expanding to handle the increased need for corporate jets.  New models of corporate jets are being built.  This is a good time for a person to get into aviation.  Have big dreams and go for them.  The sky is the limit.
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 11:54:35 AM »

How about us middle aged farts?  :P What CAP programs exist for us S'members who want to learn how to fly, if any.

I know you need a private pilots license to fly corporate aircraft, but if you were to get a sport pilot's license and had your own plane, can you fly missions for CAP?

When I was a cadet some 20 years ago, I was only able to get two powered O-Flights and my second was in the back seat during a SARex. I want to get back in the air!  ;)
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 12:44:57 PM »

See CAPR 60-1, Light sport pilots and recreational pilots are not qualified to be mission pilots (even in your own plane).  I believe I also read somewhere (but I don't have time to look for it right now) that only normally certificated aircraft can be used on missions.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 04:08:42 PM »

See CAPR 60-1, Light sport pilots and recreational pilots are not qualified to be mission pilots (even in your own plane).  I believe I also read somewhere (but I don't have time to look for it right now) that only normally certificated aircraft can be used on missions.

All I could find was:

2-1: n. Individuals holding an FAA recreational pilot certificate are restricted from being CAPF 5 qualified in CAP aircraft.

and

2-3. Required Airworthiness Certificate. Aircraft used on CAP flight activities must have a current FAA airworthiness certificate. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, autogyros, gyrocopters, helicopters, experimental, primary category, home-built, and single seat powered aircraft (except member furnished glider tow planes) are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

If a sport pilot owned a commercially manufactured 2 seat (or more) aircraft with the Airworthiness Cert., you'd think there wouldn't be a problem. As long as the search area is in an airspace rated for sport pilots and the time of search is daylight hours, I think it would be a loss to place anymore restrictions on the type of resources on hand, especially if that's all that might be available at the time.

Aside, from that, I still would like to know about Flight Training possibilities for SM's within CAP, if they exist.
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 04:52:29 PM »

Problem for sport pilot is you aren't required to have a medical and therefore couldn't get a form 5 without one.  If you have a medical AND a sport pilot license AND an aircraft that meets the requirements AND can find a check pilot willing to give you a Form5 ride in your aircraft, then I suppose you could possibly get that far.  I don't think you could complete the SQTR for mission pilot in any LSA I am aware of, and I think that it is extremely unlikely that an IC would authorize a member owned LSA to be used on a mission with a sport pilot only mission pilot at the helm.

Use of CAP Aircraft for Senior Member Student Pilot Instruction is specifically prohibited in CAPR 60-1, Sect 2-4.j (you can however get a glider ticket)

After you have been in a year, you may be approved to work on a higher rating

From CAPR 60-1
Quote
3-6. CAP Pilot Flight Training Leading to an Additional Airman Rating or Certificate. Senior and cadet members may receive flight instruction from CAP instructors in CAP aircraft as follows:
a. CAP cadets up to 21 years of age may receive flight instruction from a CAP flight instructor leading to an airman certificate or rating, including authorized cadet solo flights and accomplishment of required practical test.
b. CAP pilots who have been an active member of CAP for at least 1 year, are authorized to receive flight training leading to the addition of an instrument rating on an existing private or commercial pilot certificate when his training has been approved by the wing (or region) commander and is conducted in CAP corporate aircraft. (Use mission symbol C17.)
c. CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating. (Use mission symbol C17.)
d. CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an airman rating or certificate (commercial, certificated flight instructor, or certificated flight instructor instrument). (Use mission symbol C17.)
e. CAP senior members are authorized flight training in gliders by CAP CFIGs leading to a glider rating. This training must be approved in writing by the wing commander. This approval does not allow instruction of senior member student pilots in powered aircraft. (Use mission symbol C17.)
f. Non-pilot CAP senior member airplane flight training is not authorized unless requested in writing and approved by the Executive Director.

For CAP Pilots, CAPR 60-1 is the bible...dig deep
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
ande.boyer
Member

Posts: 81

« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2006, 11:42:00 AM »

How about us middle aged farts?  :P What CAP programs exist for us S'members who want to learn how to fly, if any.

We're left out in the cold on this one.  CAP has structure in place to teach cadets how to fly because it's "AE" and "encouraging interest in aviation in tomorrow's leaders."  For officers the emphasis is on recruiting (already certificated) pilots....not training new pilots.

I heard back in the day CAP would let corporate planes be used for flight training for a PPL....then, apparently, lots of people joined, got their license, then quit.....oh well.

You just got to bite the bullet and go to your local FBO to get that first ticket.  I got my PPL 6 weeks ago...it's SOOO worth it =)

-ande
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2006, 12:15:29 PM »

Welcome to the club!
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,649

« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2006, 03:53:46 PM »

This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Also....60-1 has to be updated because to address Light Sport Aircraft.  They are not technically ultralights.

Also...by the current regs a LSA plane could be use (depending on how you interpret it) but the pilot must still possess a PPL (RPL and SPL are not enough for a CAPF 5 check ride).
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2006, 04:02:50 PM »

This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

Quote
...but the pilot must still possess a PPL (RPL and SPL are not enough for a CAPF 5 check ride).

I'd love to know the whys behind that.  ???

Also, if someone gets a SPL is there a SPL to PPL transition class available. The whole reason I bring up flying for CAP under an SPL is $3K is a LOT more do-able than $9K when it comes to us middle class shlub's.  ;D
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 04:43:53 PM »

The why's are pretty simple, we frequently have to operate in controlled airspace, and PPL requires that the pilot know all of the ins and outs.  LSP and RPL's require sign offs or waivers,  or are prohibited from operating in some controlled airspace- big pain for the AOBD to try and keep track of during a mission.  Also, all of the new corporate aircraft we have carry at least 4 people.  Even with a recreational license, you'd be forced to leave two seats empty.  Then there is the whole night/cross country/instrument experience/training requirements that a PPL has that aren't required for LSP or RPL. 
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,165
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2006, 05:27:21 PM »

This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

According to the August National Boards, the National Commander's update noted that:

"Based on input from members, a couple of National Senior Special Activities are being planned for Summer, FY07:

              Powered Flight Encampment

                 1. Self-supporting

                 2. No impact to the cadet activities

                 3. More info available in the fall"

I haven't seen anything since.  If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2006, 05:43:41 PM »

If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

Thanks Mike, will do! ;)
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,649

« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2006, 05:48:41 PM »

This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

According to the August National Boards, the National Commander's update noted that:

"Based on input from members, a couple of National Senior Special Activities are being planned for Summer, FY07:

              Powered Flight Encampment

                 1. Self-supporting

                 2. No impact to the cadet activities

                 3. More info available in the fall"

I haven't seen anything since.  If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

there was a link to the announcement on Cadet Stuff...but they seem to be down right now.  There is nothing on the NCSA web site...but I do remember the announcement specifically saying one of the two power flight academies were for seniors.

I will keep looking for it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2006, 10:27:58 AM »

If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

Thanks Mike, will do! ;)

Question asked, will update this thread when I hear something back.
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Lancer
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 527

C3Designs, LLC
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 11:19:59 AM »

That was fast! See repsonse below:

Quote
-----Original Message-----
From: Karle, Don
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: I've heard that there is a Powered Flight Encampment being planned for Senior...

NAT/CC cancelled it because of cost.  Same with the glider activity planned for seniors.

CAP National Cadet Special Activities [NCSA]

Needless to say I'm rather bummed. Ah well. Such is life.  :(
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Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 11:40:38 AM »

The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,165
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2006, 02:28:15 PM »

The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   


Did they release a notice about it being cancelled?  I'm very curious, because I would have considered such an activity -- if not this year, then in the next few.

Plus, how can the NHQ/CC cancel something that the National Board has directed be held?
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2006, 03:47:35 PM »

The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   


Did they release a notice about it being cancelled?  I'm very curious, because I would have considered such an activity -- if not this year, then in the next few.

Plus, how can the NHQ/CC cancel something that the National Board has directed be held?

I haven't seen a written notice yet, sir.  It is now listed in the Knowledge Base, thanks to SM Curtis.   All his fault ;)  Just kidding. 

As for how it can be cancelled when the NB "ordered" it, no idea (speculations will be abundant, I'm sure).   I have a feeling that it will be placed back on the schedule at some point.   I was looking forward to it as well...who better to earn my PPL from than the people I will be flying with??   

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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2006, 10:32:11 PM »


Also, if someone gets a SPL is there a SPL to PPL transition class available. The whole reason I bring up flying for CAP under an SPL is $3K is a LOT more do-able than $9K when it comes to us middle class shlub's.  ;D

Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure you're gonna save more money just doing it once through and being done with it.

If you're curious, google FAR 61 subpart J, Sport Pilots, starting with section 61.301. As you read through, you'll notice there's a ton of limitations. No entering controlled airspace other then class E unless you have a special endorsement. No operating an aircraft with a maximum speed of 87 knots or greater at level sustained flight with max power without an endorsement. Can't carry more then 1 passenger. Can't fly at night (cuz God knows, its a high percentage of ELT sorties that start at 3AM). Aircraft max weight cannot exceed 1,320lbs. To compare, most CAP C-172s with the 180hp conversion max at 2550lbs. 182's in the 27-2800 range (I think, no F5 in the 182 yet), 206's and GA-8s in the high 2's to 3's.

Not to mention, the FAA exemption that allows private pilots to fly AF assigned missions without a commercial certificate doesn't apply to sport or recreational pilots. And I doubt the FAA would bend on that one.

Go big, get the private knocked out. You'll need 175 PIC time before you can even train to be a mission pilot, and 200 PIC before you can be mission capable. Might as well get the private done and over with. If you can't put all the money forward, I used Pilot Finance Inc. to finance my instrument rating. They're really great, will help you get the money you need, and the rates aren't all that horrible if you have a decent credit score. Plus, they don't just hand over the cash and let you (or the flight school) go wild. Every time you fly, you fill out a sheet, which the school signs, and is faxed to pilot finance. They then disburse the funds back to the school. They'll also disburse for books, ground instruction, required FAA knowledge tests, equipment, just about anything you need to complete your training.

There's so many limits on sport and recreational that I'd recommend to anyone to just do the private from the start. You can't upgrade to instrument or commercial with a sport or recreational without first going through private. It's a little more $ up front, but it's much better for you in the long run.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Learning to fly in CAP
 


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