Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[Major Carrales]

So be it.  I will, however, point you all to the words above demanding support from those in POWER.  All the Wing Kings horses and all the Wing King's men can propose Mana from heaven on CAPTALK and it will go nowhere without support.

[LTC Don]

So be it.  I will, however, point you all to the words above demanding support from those in POWER.  All the Wing Kings horses and all the Wing King's men can propose Mana from heaven on CAPTALK and it will go nowhere without support.

Very true statement(s) about political support.  But it certainly doesn't stop there either.  The very reason this situation has come about is due to the ease at which major changes/additions/deletions happens to basic uniform platforms, causing the membership a bucketful of money, along with stress and frustration.

As mentioned before, there has to be firm documentation establishing procedures for creating and resolving uniform issues.  Whether this needs to be a regulatory issue or a Constitutional issue is unknown. From a stable 'branding' standpoint, I would almost say it needs to be a Constitutional component. Once a uniform 'platform' is established, it cannot be deleted or changed or modified with the exception of badges/devices without a change/amendment to the Constitution.  The other major component of accepting a uniform platform is the uniform's anticipated lifespan.  How long will the supplier and/or fabric manufacturer maintain fabric stocks/colors.  Should CAP decide to change a color shade, will the manufacturer do it?  These are but some of the other ancillary issues surrounding a uniform adoption well beyond just designing one.

In terms of moving to a one-uniform environment, the cadet issue is a real one.  Just what would the cost be for a basic LAPDB cadet uniform be IF CAP were to stop the Air Force cadet uniform program?

For the rank and file membership, uniforms are the single biggest investment they make.  By the time a member buys a set of BDUs/hat/boots/belt, a set of white/greys, a set of USAF style with service coat, a sport jacket to with the white/greys, and on and on.....it is quite an investment made just to have someone arbitrarily delete a platform, trashing that member's investment....it sounds worse than the stock market.


Cheers,

[rmcmanus]

Lets keep it simple and make everyones life that much easier... Get rid of all Uniforms in CAP but the Polo Shirts and Blue BDUS.  If you are on a ground team you wear blue BDUs everyone else put the polo on, I mean after all isnt that what everyones wearing these days?  At least in Dallas it is.

Mr. Teel:  In another message, I reall reading your statement that, in Texas, people predominately wear the polo shirt.  Believe me, that is hardly the case when one collectively looks at other areas.  Sure, there are usually some SM who wear the polo during meetings and missions, however, the overwhelming majority of those with whom I have served (including as a full-time CAP staffer), wear the military style versions of our uniforms.

[rmcmanus]

I feel that a distinctive uniform will enable us to adhere to the military heritage of our organization yet enable the wonderful volunteers who do the most work to enjoy that sense of "belonging" that they deserve.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I feel that a distinctive uniform will enable us to adhere to the military heritage of our organization yet enable the wonderful volunteers who do the most work to enjoy that sense of "belonging" that they deserve.

+1. Completely agree. No matter it's origins, the CSU performed that function very well.

[High Speed Low Drag]

LTC Don – Thank you for a thoughtful response and great ideas.  Would you be willing to head up an effort to get that done?   To the board – I think we all know that we need support to get this done.  Maj. Carrales – are you willing to help get the support needed?  From your other posts, it seems that you are in favor of the uniform, but seem to be discouraged about the possibility of making it happen and I can understand why (with the past political climate).  But whose responsibility is it to change that climate?

CAPTalk is not the end of itself.  CAPTalk is just a bunch of electrons that are stored on magnetic disks.  These electrons are formed into words and sentences expressing the thoughts and opinions, good and negative, of CAP members from across the U.S & abroad.  Yes, we may be a bunch of CAPTalkers, CadetStuffOrgers, etc. If all the action that members ever take is to only post on CAPTalk, then you are right, CAPTalk is just a bunch of electrons stored on magnetic disks – an empty shell, a joke.  But if members take action and talk to other members, talk to their supervisors, and share the ideas that are expressed here on CAPTalk – then CAPTalk is what it is meant to be – a gigantic forum where CAP members from across the nation can share ideas and these ideas can take shape into action. 

CAP was formed by people that talked about the need for a way for non-military personnel could serve their country in the face of WWII.  These people formed their own state’s version of CAP across the country. Then, people proposed a new program.

“…. The program’s objective was to organize civilian aviation personnel so that their efforts could best be used in what loomed on the horizon as an all-out war effort. It was from this second step that Civil Air Patrol came into being. As with any program of such magnitude, there were varying opinions, and much thought and effort were spent before a workable program could be devised. Some highly responsible men believed military use should be made of civilian “know-how.” Others, equally responsible, believed that civil aviation should be curtailed in time of war, as in Europe.” –CAPP 50-5

Aren’t we glad that the second group’s opinions didn’t win? Why wasn’t civil aviation essentially grounded for the war?  Many people, from across the country, communicated amongst each other, talked with their compatriots, talked with their superiors, who talked with people in charge.  And looked what happened – from all of that “talk,” CAP came into existence.  These people talked AND took action.

Now I know that uniforms do not have the same importance, the same sense of urgency, as an impending war.  But, at the same time, CAP is in the process of re-defining itself.  We no longer have the importance in SAR that we used to; our ES missions are overlapped by so many other groups that used to not exist.  CAP is at a crossroads and we need to be working on re-defining ourselves into a workable plan to prevent CAP from eventually being relegated to the history books.  “Branding” is just one of those dimensions. 

Today is a market-driven visual society.  When we “market” (recruit) for CAP, do we rely on the spoken word, or do we make glitzy videos with cool music?  Do we stick to printed flyers or do we try and get on TV?  Do we want uniforms that look like they were thrown together or do we want professional uniforms that look good?  And uniforms are important – as LTC Don pointed out, uniforms are the single biggest investment a member will make. 

We owe it to ourselves to start talking about them now, to start working on them now, to take action NOW.                           If not now, when?

[Major Carrales]

Maj. Carrales – are you willing to help get the support needed?  From your other posts, it seems that you are in favor of the uniform, but seem to be discouraged about the possibility of making it happen and I can understand why (with the past political climate).  But whose responsibility is it to change that climate?

At this point I am trepidations in matters of uniforms.  I have trouble with the concept of creating a uniform and having the membership spend a collective hundreds of thousands of dollars on it only to have it vaporize on what seems to be a whim.

I did not buy any element of the CSU, nor was I going too until I deemed a suitable passage of time had passed to allow for the idea of permanence.  I then, believe it or not, in October entertained the idea because years had passed and then, lo and behold, GONE in an instant. 

If a structure can be put into place that would insure that this occurrence cannot happen again then you will have my support.  However, if the continued infighting between various elements of CAP governance and blatant disregard for membership provided funds for ambiguous, arbitrary or otherwise unknown reasons...what would anyone have me do?

As for changing the "political climate" of CAP, no one person can reasonably change the effective climate of any area outside of their own sphere of influence.  We do our part in "the trenches" where our squadrons implement CAP's missions.  Often times the photos of those at levels high and distant change and the unit goes on.

All I know is that for the price of all the CSU uniform items, I suspect a CAP compliant radio, headset, field pack or other useful item could have been purchased with member supplied funding.  And, no, this was not the fault of those that purchased it.   They were purchasing a CAP approved item, much as anyone purchasing a USAF Style uniform would have done.  There was no warning, there was no official preparation.  And, above all, there has been so satisfactory explanation as to why this was done.  Only speculations and the murmuring of rumors that should better metaphorically line a birdcage than the metaphorical wall of validity.

[lordmonar]

I too am leary of any major new uniforms.

We need to move to get all our seniors into the same uniform first.  Once that happens we can then look at making major changes to that uniform.

I would for the mid run, stick with the aviator and grays.  Make minor changes to them to allow for ribbons, and military insignia (wings, military ribbons etc).  Then move everyone to that uniform.

Five years down the road we can empanel a comittee to take input from the field, Suppliers and the USAF to design a new uniform that fills the need that the CSU filled until recently.

A new uniform right now will not be a smart idea.  It will get shot down simply because "we just did away with a unfirom".

In the short run....we can find a supplier for gray slacks to be the perfered shade/material.
Get all the SM's out of the USAF style unfiorms into the white and grays/BBDUs and move on.

I would propose that we axe the blue flight suits and go with green flight suits with out any rank on the sholder.  That way we can keep the USAF surpluss as  supply for Nomex flight suits and save a lot of cash.

[arajca]

I would propose that we axe the blue flight suits and go with green flight suits with out any rank on the sholder.  That way we can keep the USAF surpluss as  supply for Nomex flight suits and save a lot of cash.

We had that. AF took that option away. One reason we now have the dark blue fight suits.

[lordmonar]

I would propose that we axe the blue flight suits and go with green flight suits with out any rank on the sholder.  That way we can keep the USAF surpluss as  supply for Nomex flight suits and save a lot of cash.

We had that. AF took that option away. One reason we now have the dark blue fight suits.

Maybe it is time to revisit the issue. 

If we remove the rank from the shoulder the USAF will be hard pressed to justify not letting all our members from wearing the green flight suit.  Here at Nellis you see all sorts of civilains wearing flight suits that at 100 feet look just like active duty.

By pushing the uniformity, cost and safety issues and backing off the rank we could probably come up with a nice compromise.

[Hawk200]

I would propose that we axe the blue flight suits and go with green flight suits with out any rank on the sholder.

I remember putting forth this idea a year and a half ago and got a resounding "Hell, NO! I'm not giving up my rank insignia for anyone fat and fuzzy! Not my fault they won't lose weight or shave!"

I think it's a good idea. Green nomex can be found a lot cheaper used than any other color. No more sewing PITA rank on the shoulder.

However, Vanguard would have kittens since they recently "found" a source.

While I'm thinking of it, I'm still looking for a set of subdued flightsuit rank (all ranks). Anyone know where I can find some?

[kd8gua]

The latest ideas, put on a model by High Speed Low Drag:

Gray pants, white Aviator shirt, LAPD Blue tie:
[smg id=73]

Gray pants, white shirt, tie, and coat:
[smg id=74]

A chart showing the differences in color between black, LAPD blue, and USAF Shade 1620.
[smg id=75]

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Get all the SM's out of the USAF style unfiorms into the white and grays/BBDUs and move on.

Why do you believe that we have to be out of the AF-style uniforms?  Isn't that another overreaction to what went down with the CSU?

As long as the Air Force authorises us to have that uniform, with the modifications they find suitable, those who can/will shouldn't have that taken away from us by CAP.

Again, I ask, why does it have to be grey/white, except for reasons of convenience?

To me grey, grey everywhere will make us look like the old East German Air Force, or, as I said before, the Empire in "Star Wars."

http://tinyurl.com/imperialgrey

A bit pricey.

If it has to be grey, we might as well buy old East German tunics without insignia and put CAP stuff on them.  $45 a pop here:

http://tinyurl.com/GDRGREY

All right, there's the "we've already got it" argument.  However, we also "already had" the berry boards, and once we were allowed to get the grey epaulettes, look how fast those disappeared.

[SarDragon]

I think the idea is to get ALL SMs in the same uniform. This will not happen with a modified AF uniform.

Personally, I'd just like to be able to wear something that looks more like the service dress uniform than the blazer.

[PHall]

Personally, I'd just like to be able to wear something that looks more like the service dress uniform than the blazer.

You can do that tomorrow Dave, all you gotta do is shave. ;-)

[lordmonar]

Get all the SM's out of the USAF style uniforms into the white and grays/BBDUs and move on.

Why do you believe that we have to be out of the AF-style uniforms?  Isn't that another overreaction to what went down with the CSU?

Uniform....we can't be uniform until we got one and only one uniform.

As long as the Air Force authorizes us to have that uniform, with the modifications they find suitable, those who can/will shouldn't have that taken away from us by CAP.

So you wish to perpetuate the two class system we currently have.  And you wish to perpetuate the unprofessional image we present our customers when we show up to a mission base in 8 different uniform combinations.

Again, I ask, why does it have to be grey/white, except for reasons of convenience?

As I said before....we go with the gray and whites in the short run....once we get everyone uniform we can look at a new uniform.

[RiverAux]

Except for a very small percentage of people, the "two class" system is a result of the choices people have made not to meet the weight or grooming standard, but thats another debate.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Except for a very small percentage of people, the "two class" system is a result of the choices people have made not to meet the weight or grooming standard, but thats another debate.

<_<.

Most folks who wear it around here are either wearing it due to medical conditions, or prior vets who may also have a medical condition due to their service.

[BillB]

What is the percentage of SM that don't meet the standard to wear the AF uniform? As I see it CAP doesn't need a new uniform, but rather eliminate several of the so called corporate uniforms. The polo shirt and grey pants is not a uniform, it's something you were to play golf in. Most squadrons have a supply of surplus AF uniforms that could issue blue pants to seniors meaning they only need to purtchase the white aviator shirt. Wear that with grey slides and you have a standard uniform for seniors. You'll never get all seniors in the same uniform. You'll always have SM in the AF uniform or something else called a corporate uniform or different versions of the corporate uniform. Or those to lazy to put on a uniform correctly that wearr the flight suit when the nearest corporate aircraft is 50 miles away. Pick one of the existing CAP uniforms plus the AF uniform and you just about have standardized uniforms for seniors.

[High Speed Low Drag]

As I understand it, the whole idea is to "narrow" down the uniform choices.  My personal opinion for dress / service uniforms:  1 - AF Style  2 - Corporate-Style (with corporate-style being what the modified white/grays.)  I think the polo shirt has been abused and would personally do-away with it. (I know it has its place, the problem is when people show up everywhere with it) I also think that we need to do away with the mess-dress. 

So - In Garrick's world, SMs would wear either the AF-style or the white/grays.  The corp service coat would be the style proposed here. Formal events would be a uniform w/ service coat and service hat or appropriate business attire. My hope would be that after a few years of the corporate-style, we could do away with the AF-style and have only the corporate-style.  But that would only be possible if the new corporate style was sharp, cost effective, and appealed to those that wore the AF-style.

Also, in Garrick’s world, all SMs would wear the BBDUs.  As we have to (or should as we should save the issue BDUs for the cadets) buy our own BDUs, we can buy the BBDUs.  They are going to be in production for a long time (LE uses), look professional, and are visually different. 


{ Tried to post images here, failed miserably }