Chaplains as commanders

[RiverAux]

What is the logic behind the restriction on Chaplains being unit commanders? Is it a holdover from when they weren't required to do participate in the regular PD program or is their a broader reason? 

Seems to me that this is no different than any other CAP job and I would actually assume that chaplains have a lot of experience in small "unit" leadership from running their churches on a daily basis, usually with the help of a whole lot of volunteers that need regular motivating. 

[Cecil DP]

While I do know a Chaplain who is a Squadron Commander, the idea is that the Chaplain remains outside the Chain of Command so that any personal problem remain private. If the Squadron Comander is aware of a problem he must respond to it. Any communication between a chaplain and someone seeking his services are sacrosanct. 

[Eclipse]

While I do know a Chaplain who is a Squadron Commander, the idea is that the Chaplain remains outside the Chain of Command so that any personal problem remain private. If the Squadron Comander is aware of a problem he must respond to it. Any communication between a chaplain and someone seeking his services are sacrosanct.

1) He's not (supposed to be) a CAP Chaplain, that is expressly prohibited.  So in our context he is simply a member of clergy

2) Communications between a Chaplain and a member are not bound by any confidentiality in a CAP context.  That they are is a myth and one which causes issue when Chaplains are told "bad" things.  If so, please cite.

3) I personally have no issue with a Chaplain being a commander, in a volunteer organization, refusing to allow anyone judged qualified who wants to serve to be a commander misses the point.

[RiverAux]

2) Communications between a Chaplain and a member are not bound by any confidentiality in a CAP context.  That they are is a myth and one which causes issue when Chaplains are told "bad" things. 

This is mostly incorrect.
CAPR 265-1

18. Confidentiality. In compliance with privileged communication standards, each chaplain will be provided, where possible, private office space with locked storage for confidential files (CAPF 48) in order to hold counseling sessions.
a. Chaplains and CDIs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy, paragraph 1.
b. In all other cases, chaplains will, at a minimum, seek the advice of a duly appointed and currently serving CAP legal officer before making any disclosure of information confided in a private setting.
c. Only CAP chaplains have confidentiality under this regulation. CAP members who are ordained ministers serving in the capacity of CDI are not granted confidentiality or privileged communication in CAP under this regulation. CDIs will brief anyone wishing to talk with them in confidence that they are not serving as a chaplain and are not protected by confidentiality.

[a2capt]

CAPR 265-1 Paragraph 18 ...

Puts a whole huge kink in the way the chain of command is supposed to work.

Just like wearing dual hats at an ES mission, (your private sector employment as an LE, or being the UDF person trying to gain access to the locked up ELT), you can be CC, or you can be Chaplain, but you can't be both. The roles are not compatible regulation wise.

[sandman]

It would seem to make sense if a member of the clergy were to command a CAP unit but not wear the Chaplain insignia while holding a commander's billet. Would it be because of the need for "separation of church and state" (i.e. a state endorsement of a specific religion)?

What if we (CAP) had a unit that had all members that were clergy members (and the unit specifically chartered for that purpose). I would state that the unit commander could wear the Chaplain insignia (following active duty models).

Does anyone remember years ago that CAP had a scholarship for cadets interested in pursuing training or a degree in religion?

[Eclipse]

Being a member of clergy is not an issue, only if you choose to be a CAP Chaplain.  There are plenty of clergy in CAP who choose not to be Chaplains.

There are no "separation" issues - a Catholic priest can command a squadron the same as anyone else.

[RiverAux]

To be clear, in my original post I was using the title of "Chaplain" to refer to CAP Chaplains, not people who happen to be pastors or priests but that have not been appointed to be a CAP Chaplain. 

[lordmonar]

As a "Chaplain" you are outside the chain of command...with specific duties to god and the individual.   As a commander you are part of the chain of command with specifi duties to the mission and the organisation.  No one wants to put people into conflicts of intrests. 

From a military point of views Chaplains can't be commanders of operational squadrons because they are by definition non-combatants.   That tradition is carried over into CAP.

[Chappie]

Chaplains at all levels of CAP serve the commander and are a member of the CC's staff.  According to the CAPP 265-4 - The Chaplain Service (Corps) Handbook:

Non-chaplain Duties. There are some duties outside the normal sphere of the clergy which the chaplain MAY NOT perform. CAP regulations follow the pattern and policy set by the Air Force in regard to these assignments. Chaplains are strictly prohibited from any activity which is incompatible with the chaplain's function and status as a clergy. Even voluntary service in such duties is prohibited. CAP chaplains must be free to perform the services and ministry of their calling. The question is one of propriety, not ability.

Prohibited non-chaplain duties include, but are not limited to, those of commander, executive officer, deputy commander for cadets, aerospace education officer (Note: this prohibition was changed a few years ago), testing officer, inspector, investigating officer, or member of any grievance committee.

Should a chaplain desire to accept any such .position, that chaplain must immediately notify the Director of Chaplain Services, who will notify the chaplain's endorser and request the chaplain's endorsement be withdrawn without prejudice to that person's continued CAP senior membership.

There is no "chain of command" per se in the Chaplain Corps.  The National Chief of Chaplain Corps reports to the National CC; the Region HC to the Region CC; Wing HC to the Wing HC: and Group/Squadron HC to the Group/Squadron CC.   The National/Region/Wing HCs provide oversight (supervision), resources to their respective Chaplain Corps personnel. 

Another citation from the Chaplain Service (Corps) Handbook:

2-1. THE CHAPLAIN AND THE COMMANDER

The commander is responsible for all activities and conduct within the commander's unit. The chaplain is the commander's staff officer to carry out the religious and spiritual portion of the unit's mission. As staff officers, chaplains have rank without command, except that chaplains exercise operational supervision of subordinates within the CAP chaplain service. Through staff meetings, private consultations, and written or verbal reports, the chaplain must always keep the commander informed on the spiritual and moral climate of the unit.  Chaplains then recommend actions necessary to ensure the moral and spiritual development of unit members. With the commander's approval, chaplains carry out plans and programs.

In many instances, the commander will assume that chaplains will be going about their business and will have no immediate personal relationship to these activities. However, even an expressed disinterest on the part of a commander does not relieve the unit chaplain of the necessity to keep the "boss" informed. When geographically possible, the chaplain should initiate personal contact. Chaplains must never forget they represent the commander in the performance of their duties. This is the reason that chaplains must consciously exhibit an openness to all religious sensitivities in every CAP activity except specifically denominational worship.

Most chaplains will find that their unit commander is a congenial individual who sincerely welcomes both the professional partnership and the personal friendship of the chaplain. This relationship will inevitably bear a substantial benefit for all members of the command. By tact and wisdom, chaplains will help knit the unit together in mutual respect and responsibility to duty. Chaplains can be key members in promoting unit welfare.

[PHall]

Thanks for your reply Chappie. I was wondering when you would "enlighten" us.

[RiverAux]

I wasn't questioning whether or not this was an actual regulation, so while the quote is appreciated it doesn't really answer the question which is WHY is this the regulation. 

I understand where the people who made the previous replies are coming from, but I think the chances of a CAP member saying something to a Chaplain who is a Commander that somehow puts the Chaplain/Commander in a bind in regards to their confidentiality requirements and their duty as a commander is slim to none. 

The primary area where I would have a concern in this regards is cadet protection issues, but anything said to a chaplain in that regard is not priviliged as per the chaplain regulation quoted recently in another thread. 

So, just what situations are going to pop up that could cause a conflict? 

Keep in mind that all CAP members are already responsible for reporting waste, fraud, and abuse complaints to CAP as per the complaints regulation.  So, lets say a CAP Chaplain who is a priest hears a confession from a CAP member that they embezzled $100 from the squadron.  Any CAP Chaplain would automatically already have a conflict between their duty as a CAP member to report such an act and their confidentiality requirements.  What would it matter if that CAP Chaplain was also a CAP commander?  In this case, the wording in the chaplain regulation is probably stronger, so the proper course would probably be not to report it.

Its not like CAP Commanders have duties to report things that don't apply to all CAP members. 

[CAPSGT]

Chaplains need to be in a position free of personal conflicts, percieved or actual, with members.  They are a resource for members to go to for counseling.

Commanders by nature have to make decisions that can create conflict.  If a member is not in a position in which they can feel free to speak to the chaplain due to a prior conflict, the chaplain is not able to perform their chaplain responsibilities effectively.

[Cecil DP]

While I do know a Chaplain who is a Squadron Commander, the idea is that the Chaplain remains outside the Chain of Command so that any personal problem remain private. If the Squadron Comander is aware of a problem he must respond to it. Any communication between a chaplain and someone seeking his services are sacrosanct.

I would like to point out that the Chaplain in question did resign his chaplaincy to become the commander

[Short Field]

Then he did the right thing.   :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

[Chaplaindon]

Keep in mind that all CAP members are already responsible for reporting waste, fraud, and abuse complaints to CAP as per the complaints regulation.  So, lets say a CAP Chaplain who is a priest hears a confession from a CAP member that they embezzled $100 from the squadron.  Any CAP Chaplain would automatically already have a conflict between their duty as a CAP member to report such an act and their confidentiality requirements. 

First, I think it's a bit pointless to debate the rationality of a regulation that we are powerless to change. This is the way the USAF does it (and all other branches of our armed force too) ... and it's not likey to ever change. As a retired CAP chaplain, I very happy with the rule.

However, back to the hypothetical scenario about a CAP member confessing to a CAP chaplain of her/his theft of $100.00 from their unit and any potential conflict that chaplain might experience balancing their call to "pastoral confidentiality" versus CAP regulations calling for he/she to disclose waste and/or fraud.

I find that there's no conflict in my mind.

The demands and expectations of my ordination are paramount. I will maintain said confidence. It is privileged communication. Also, this is a fudiciary "crime" ... not covered by State or Federal disclosure laws which do not permit such priviledge communication exemptions for abuse (e.g. child or elder abuse).

With that preface, in the hypothetical scenario proposed, I would take my pastoral resposibility seriously and seek REPENTANCE from the person who took the money. Repentance isn't merely confessing or saying "I'm sorry." Rather it is a real and substantive change of behavior and evidence of true remorse for the misdeed.

I would require, as evidence of such repentance, that the person admit her/his actions and make restitution to the squadron.

I wouldn't need to tell the commander (and couldn't), the person seeking forgiveness, however, MUST. Telling the chaplain (in confidence) is a good first step (and MAYBE evidence of remorse), but they need to go all the way for the sake of their soul and conscience.

BTW, I was a squadron commander before I became a chaplain. I've been on both sides.

[RiverAux]

First, I think it's a bit pointless to debate the rationality of a regulation that we are powerless to change.

Then why be on  CAPTalk?  We can't change anything about anything (in general).

Your response to my hypothetical basically makes my point -- faced with an conflict beween your duty as a general CAP member and your duty as a CAP Chaplain, you chose to go with your CAP Chaplain hat (or collar, perhaps).  A CAP Chaplain who was also the squadron commander would face that same exact conflict and I am personally ok with such conflicts being resolved in favor the Chaplain's duty. 

I just think it is illogical to exclude Chaplains from this duty that they many would probably be outstanding in performing based on a illogical hypothetical situation. 

[lordmonar]

Your response to my hypothetical basically makes my point -- faced with an conflict beween your duty as a general CAP member and your duty as a CAP Chaplain, you chose to go with your CAP Chaplain hat (or collar, perhaps).  A CAP Chaplain who was also the squadron commander would face that same exact conflict and I am personally ok with such conflicts being resolved in favor the Chaplain's duty. 

I just think it is illogical to exclude Chaplains from this duty that they many would probably be outstanding in performing based on a illogical hypothetical situation.

You may be okay with that....but National is not okay with that.  Commanders MUST...MUST have the mission as first priority.  Anyone who can't accept that responsibility should not be a commander.  The Chaplain Corps understands this basic fact and knows that they cannot always meet this requirement and so they forbit their members from even being in that situation.