Senior Member NCO check in

[citizensoldier]

Since we are such an oddity in the CAP, sound off!

I kept my NCO rank as I am proud of what I did in the ARNG.  I work some with our Cadet program and my son.  I want to focus on learning and this lets me do more variety of things without worrying about getting promoted.  I had considered a sponsor membership but wanted to be more active than that.

CS

[exFlight Officer]

Hello  citizensoldier !! Welcome to C.A.P.  and CAP Talk ! I value the knowledge of an NCO ! Glad to see another  NCO  join C.A.P.     Have a great day! 

[BGNightfall]

HI wing SSgt sounding off.  Just about anybody can be a 2nd LT, it takes something special to be a CAP NCO!

[exFlight Officer]

+1   Agreed!  I wish there were more NCOs in C.A.P.

[SarDragon]

+1   Agreed!  I wish there were more NCOs in C.A.P.

Why?

[exFlight Officer]

There are far too many officers on the Senior Member side of C.A.P. (in my opinion). With more NCOs, cadet NCOs will have someone to look up to more than they would an officer. With C.A.P. being the USAF Auxiliary, I encourage NCOs to come in and remain an NCO bringing a broader spectrum in the Senior Member ranks. That is just my say. I am subject to being corrected in the near future if I am wrong.

[IceNine]

^ We already have a problem with "Chief Forever".  The cadet program is about being a mustang not stopping because NCO's get the work done.

Introducing a culture where cadets look up to NCO's "more than" officers as you say would cause a bottom heavy culture in the cadet program and lead to fewer cadets reaching potential.

I have nothing against the NCO corp, and while there is no NCO program there are invaluable lessons that we non-prior service can learn from anyone with time served.

[Short Field]

cadet NCOs will have someone to look up to more than they would an officer.

Unless cadet NCOs stall out in the program, they are on their way to becoming a cadet Officer.  Cadet NCOs need to be learning how to become cadet Officers.  You can't compare Cadet NCOs with RM NCOs.    Do you really want a cadet to stop progressing at cadet CMSgt because they feel superior to a cadet 2nd Lt?

[exFlight Officer]

With NCOs, NCO cadets will be able to look up to NCO and learn from them while they are the NCO ranks. I encourage cadets to move on up to being an officer and even go to Cadet Colonel. I am not saying that the cadet should stop at the NCO stage just because they might feel superior to a cadet officer.

[IceNine]

That would only work if there were a program that used senior NCO's the same way the military does.  What you said above isn't feasible by any stretch in the current rev of the senior program.  We currently don't use CAP NCO's for any function that we don't use officers for, there is no functional distinction. 

In CAP Senior NCO's are just seniors that don't get promoted, and wear their current or prior service on their sleeve. 

There really are no programmatic advantages to being a CAP senior NCO.  But their are express disadvantages.  But you can see one of the other 15 threads on this for all of those arguments.

[Cecil DP]

I reached my terminal grade(LtCol) 19 years ago. If CAP actually had a program where NCO's could get advancerd as proposed to the National Board, I would consider reverting to SMSgt and hopefully getting CMSgt at the appropriate time. Of course if National would grant COL to those who have completed the GRW requirements and a certain time in grade, I would wait on that.

[lordmonar]

With NCOs, NCO cadets will be able to look up to NCO and learn from them while they are the NCO ranks. I encourage cadets to move on up to being an officer and even go to Cadet Colonel. I am not saying that the cadet should stop at the NCO stage just because they might feel superior to a cadet officer.

As a recently retired USAF SNCO....you can do all those things while still being a CAP officer.  Being a leader and a good example has nothing to do with what is on your collar or shirt sleeve.

The benifits of CAP NCO are outweighted by the confusion they cause because they do not fit into the CAP PD structure.

CAP NCOs are nothing more then then a clique of ex-/current NCOs who get to say "look at me I'm different".

I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?

Now...I think there could be a CAP NCO corp with a specific job, a progression process, and PD system....and I have made that suggestion here on CAPTALK...but I have not seen any intrest from national on that part.

Until the role of NCO's are clearly spelled out, their authority defined and a logical and acheivalbe progression system devised....there is just no point to CAP NCOs.

[JK657]

"I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?"

And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring. I sometimes wonder how the membership numbers would change if instead of being "officers" every senior members except for those in leadership (squadron,group,etc commanders) were enlisted? No shinny bling, no one impersonating officers, no berry boards, no trolling for salutes.

Now, before I get hate mail from 50 people saying,"I'm here to serve" We all know there are plenty here who are here for the service to community and country. I'm talking about those who are here for the sole purpose of being called an officer and getting to dress up. It reminds me of an old thread on here about VSAF and whether people would still volunteer if they weren't allowed to wear their rank. Many people didn't care but there were still those who put the bling before service.

.02

[Short Field]

"I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?"

And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.

Why do you think a CAP Lt wouldn't have the same if not more prior military experience?  And with all the professional educators floating around, you really don't want to compare experience in teaching, training, and mentoring.   

The CAP Cadet Program may use military ranks, but it does not mirror the RM.   It comes closer to mirroring the various ROTC programs.  In ROTC, you progress through cadet enlisted ranks for the first two years, then if you stick iwth the program, you are a cadet 2nd Lt and compete for officer rank the last two years.  There are no "career" cadet NCOs.  There are also no RM NCOs training the cadets in ROTC.  (If someone saw a RM NCO training cadets, let me know as I never saw one.  There might be a few NCO led programs like firearms training but I only saw senior cadets leading the training.)
 
FYI - I am a retired mustang officer so I do understand and value the NCO experience. 
Promotions in CAP represent special skills and professional development.  RM NCOs are afforded advanced promotion based on their rank and receive credit for their military PME.   

[lordmonar]

And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.

Sure thing...and that RM NCO can become a CAP officer just as easy with out complicating our already convoluted rank structure.....I know because I did and I do.

CAP officers have a training program, a progression program and for the most part a structure that is understood by people both in and out of CAP.

You start throwing in NCOs.....well what if the good SSgt wants to be an IC or a mission pilot.  We got outside people scratching their head trying to figure out why the SSgt is bossing around a bunch of Lt Cols and Majs.

I think CAP could use an NCO corps....with a very specific job and progression program.  But as it stand right now....CAP NCOs are simply former (or current) NCOs who want to be outside the normal CAP system.

[ColonelJack]

Of course if National would grant COL to those who have completed the GRW requirements and a certain time in grade, I would wait on that.

I support that idea whole-heartedly, Cecil!  In fact, I think I made a suggestion a while back of such a thing:  promote to colonel with a GRW and 15 to 20 years in grade at lieutenant colonel.  (I know that's way longer than required in the RM, but hey -- how many people stick around that long?  Shouldn't they be rewarded for it in some way?)

Jack

[citizensoldier]

And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.

Sure thing...and that RM NCO can become a CAP officer just as easy with out complicating our already convoluted rank structure.....I know because I did and I do.

CAP officers have a training program, a progression program and for the most part a structure that is understood by people both in and out of CAP.

You start throwing in NCOs.....well what if the good SSgt wants to be an IC or a mission pilot.  We got outside people scratching their head trying to figure out why the SSgt is bossing around a bunch of Lt Cols and Majs.

I think CAP could use an NCO corps....with a very specific job and progression program.  But as it stand right now....CAP NCOs are simply former (or current) NCOs who want to be outside the normal CAP system.

As we can agree that we could use an NCO Corps, it does have to begin somewhere.  The question now becomes what do we do to make it into something?  I do disagree that we are out of the normal CAP system, maybe the current histoical one.  In our Civil Defense past, we had enlisted members and NCOs. 

CS

CS

[citizensoldier]

http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/Art_Media/large/MilitaryUniforms_CAP1942_B3CivilAirPatrol.jpg

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would fully support instituting promotions for CAP NCO's.  We did have them, way back in the mists of time, from WWII until the 1970s (not sure about the year that ended).  I've seen pictures of a CAP NCO rank structure in an old book on U.S. military insignia that was:

Airman: one stripe
Airman First Class: two stripes
Sergeant: three stripes
Staff Sergeant: three stripes/one below
Technical Sergeant: three stripes/two below
Master Sergeant: three stripes/three below

And, of course, I'm sure many of you have seen this picture:

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Image:M-sgt-cap.jpg

I would also support bringing back warrant officers.

That would be good for seniors who want to just follow one specialty track, excel at it, and who don't have any aspirations toward command.  I'd jump to that in a heartbeat (Captain to CW3).

Progression from WO1 to CWO5 would be roughly equivalent to progression from 2/LT to LTC, but with more emphasis on professional development in one's chosen specialty track than on leadership responsibilities.

Restating the obvious: The AF doesn't have WO's, though there has been talk about bringing them back.  However, the AF also doesn't have the Flight Officer grades, and we do.  The AF has promotable enlisted/NCO's, and we don't.  We have buck sergeants and the AF doesn't.

But it is all so much a chasing after the wind.

[Eclipse]

HI wing SSgt sounding off.  Just about anybody can be a 2nd LT, it takes something special to be a CAP NCO!

Yes, service in the military.