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Crimson Jarhead
Newbie

Posts: 1

« on: October 09, 2009, 11:16:11 AM »

Hi All,

I have a question related to CAP 60-1.  I am current in a CAP C-172 with instrument priviledges.  However, my squadron just traded its 172 for a 182.   I have not had a chance to Form 5 in this plane yet, but I do have 25+ takeoffs and landings with a CAP instructor in the plane

60-1, paragraph 3-7(a)(3) states that a CAP solo pilot can solo in a C-182 after 25 t/o's and landings.  Does that mean CAP considers me qualified to fly the 182 solo prior to my form 5?  How does one get a flight release to fly as a solo pilot?  What other conditions must be met in order for me to fly the plane as a solo pilot?

Thanks for any info.

Dale
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,952

« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 11:29:21 AM »

No - you have to do a Form 5 in that aircraft, once you have a properly recorded Form 5, you will go on your wing's FRO reports and you can call any FRO in your wing for a release. (Wing SOP's vary).
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 12:16:31 PM »

You aren't a CAP Solo Pilot if you already have a PPL and an instrument rating.  It sounds like you are a CAP Instrument Pilot. 

For you to transition to the 182, you would need 100 Hrs total time(as an CAP Instrument Pilot you already have this), an FAA High Performance sign off, and a CAPF 5 in the 182 (you could conceivably kill those 2 birds with one stone so to speak, if the Check Pilot is willing.)

Quote
3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:
a. Single Engine Airplane.
(1) High Performance Airplanes 100 hours total time.
(2) Complex Airplanes 100 hours total PIC time of which at least 10 hours PIC and 25 takeoffs and landings are in complex airplanes. ...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
jimmydeanno
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,155
Unit: ǝnƃoɹ

« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 01:25:47 PM »

Call me naive or just plain dumb (as I am not a pilot), but this seems a bit weird to me.  Of course, I'm sure there is reasonable justification behind this, or I'm just completely off base with my understanding...

CAP Solo Pilot = Member holding a student pilot certificate with solo endorsement.  Probably a really low time pilot, considering the student pilot cert instead of a private pilot cert.  All they need to do is 25 take-offs and landings in the 182 to be able to take it out on their own?

Yet, someone who is an actual pilot with instrument rating can't take it out under the same restrictions as a solo pilot would?

Did I interpret that correctly?
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,952

« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 01:33:52 PM »

The key here isn't the ticket, specifically, and the instrument qualification isn't even a factor.

CAP requires you do a separate initial Form 5 in each aircraft type in order to fly by yourself.

For most wings that's a 172, 182, and G1000 ride if you are so inclined, and the glass variants of those may add a few more, especially when the glass system is new to CAP or the wing (as the upcoming Avidyne 172 refits will be).
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,650

« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 04:01:01 PM »

Call me naive or just plain dumb (as I am not a pilot), but this seems a bit weird to me.  Of course, I'm sure there is reasonable justification behind this, or I'm just completely off base with my understanding...

CAP Solo Pilot = Member holding a student pilot certificate with solo endorsement.  Probably a really low time pilot, considering the student pilot cert instead of a private pilot cert.  All they need to do is 25 take-offs and landings in the 182 to be able to take it out on their own?

Yet, someone who is an actual pilot with instrument rating can't take it out under the same restrictions as a solo pilot would?

Did I interpret that correctly?

No...they are almost the same requirements.....the main difference is what they are allowed to do with them.

A CAP Solo pilot may take out the 182 after they got 25 Takeoff/Landing to do pilot training with no pax.

A CAP pilot with 100+ hours needs 24 takes offs and landings and 10 hours PIC time in a 182 in order to be form 5ed to do anything a MTP or MP could do....hence the higher restrictions.

Now...it is completely possible for the CAP pilot to get his 10 hours and 25 landings in a CAP plane with a CAP flight Instructor in the right seat (just like we do with G1000).
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 04:59:31 PM »

CAP Solo Pilot = Member holding a student pilot certificate with solo endorsement.  Probably a really low time pilot, considering the student pilot cert instead of a private pilot cert.  All they need to do is 25 take-offs and landings in the 182 to be able to take it out on their own?

Yet, someone who is an actual pilot with instrument rating can't take it out under the same restrictions as a solo pilot would?

Did I interpret that correctly?

You are thinking right.

It is interesting that CAP rules will not restrict a student solo pilot (without a Form 5) from taking a 182 out.  But a licensed pilot (without a Form 5) may not.
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Airrace
Seasoned Member

Posts: 373

« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 06:48:06 PM »

A form 5 is needed in each aircraft.
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Thrashed
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 510

« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 09:38:39 PM »

If he is getting instruction in that aircraft the instructor signs him off for solo in that aircraft as part of training.  It includes many of the same things on a Form 5 (see pre solo requirements in the FAR's).

CAP Solo Pilot = Member holding a student pilot certificate with solo endorsement.  Probably a really low time pilot, considering the student pilot cert instead of a private pilot cert.  All they need to do is 25 take-offs and landings in the 182 to be able to take it out on their own?

Yet, someone who is an actual pilot with instrument rating can't take it out under the same restrictions as a solo pilot would?

Did I interpret that correctly?

You are thinking right.

It is interesting that CAP rules will not restrict a student solo pilot (without a Form 5) from taking a 182 out.  But a licensed pilot (without a Form 5) may not.
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Save the triangle thingy
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2009, 09:42:49 PM »

Sorry guys but check your FAR's.  The C-182 is not a complex aircraft (the gear doesn't retract), it is however a high performance aircraft (>200 HP), therefore, to transition to the C-182, you would need 100 Hrs total time, an FAA High Performance sign off, and a CAPF 5 in the 182 (as I said before, you could conceivably kill those 2 birds with one stone so to speak, if the Check Pilot is willing.)

Quote
3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:
a. Single Engine Airplane.
(1) High Performance Airplanes 100 hours total time.
(2) Complex Airplanes 100 hours total PIC time of which at least 10 hours PIC and 25 takeoffs and landings are in complex airplanes. ...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2009, 11:00:03 PM »

So, a CAP pilot with 45 hours TT, a private pilot certificate, 25 take offs and landings in a C-182, and a form 5 checkride is not allowed to solo in the C-182...

But a CAP solo pilot who also has 25 take offs and landings in a C-182, but < 40 hours TT, no private pilot certificate, and no form 5 checkride is allowed to solo in the C-182

 ???

So, a CAP cadet could complete their entire primary flight training in a CAP C-182 with a CAP instructor pilot. But once the private pilot certificate is had, he/she would then have to wait until 100 hours TT before even thinking about being PIC in a CAP C-182 again?

 ???

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol!  ;D
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
Thrashed
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 510

« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2009, 11:04:33 PM »

Yes. 
Private pilots don't "solo" any aircraft, they are PIC. 
Solo (student pilot) is under strict supervision of an instructor.
I know it doesn't seem to make much sense, but it really does. Solo has a lot of restrictions, while PIC does not.
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Save the triangle thingy
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 695

« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 07:14:00 AM »

Only a matter of time before one of our "CAP Solo Pilots" biffs an airplane.  As the experience requirement for licensed pilots reveals, student pilots simply have no business flying 182s.  The 100 hrs for licensed pilots makes sense because it takes many pilots that long to truly master airspeed control, which is vital in a nose-heavy aircraft like a 182. 
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"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

Check Pilot/Tow Pilot
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425

« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 01:04:00 AM »

Quote
CAP requires you do a separate initial Form 5 in each aircraft type in order to fly by yourself.

Eclipse, I thought it is an abbreviated CAPF 5 for aircraft models in the same category and class. 

Dale, all you would need is an Aircraft Questionnaire for the 182 within 60 days prior and such maneuvers as necessary during the flight check for the new endorsement. There is no flight time or landing minimums required for these types of check rides.

However, if you were getting close to the expiration date of your last CAPF 5 then you might as well do a full CAPF 5 as the abbreviated does not reset the date.
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 03:04:02 AM »

So, a CAP pilot with 45 hours TT, a private pilot certificate, 25 take offs and landings in a C-182, and a form 5 checkride is not allowed to solo in the C-182...

But a CAP solo pilot who also has 25 take offs and landings in a C-182, but < 40 hours TT, no private pilot certificate, and no form 5 checkride is allowed to solo in the C-182

 ???

So, a CAP cadet could complete their entire primary flight training in a CAP C-182 with a CAP instructor pilot. But once the private pilot certificate is had, he/she would then have to wait until 100 hours TT before even thinking about being PIC in a CAP C-182 again?

 ???

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol!  ;D

That is correct. When a student pilot is soloing, he is actually flying onthe Instructoer certificate. Once he becomes a pilot he is under his own certicate and must meet the applicable FAR's in order to act as PIC of that aircraft.
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a2capt
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 11:33:24 AM »

25 take-offs also implies that some time is gathered in the aircraft. Thus they have learned how to fly the aircraft at introductory levels.

However, again, as it was also stated, it's under supervision.

and as well, pointed out, the requirements for PIC are also 25 take-offs/landings. You still can't fly 'solo' without the same requirements, the difference is while you meet that with the 25 logged take-offs and landings, you can be working towards that Form 5 with that CFI that is also a CAP Form 5 pilot in that same airplane, so you can then perform the Form 5 demonstration after or along the way and when that Form is filled out you are free to use the aircraft in it's fullest privileged capacity where as the starting out solo pilot will still have lots of restrictions that go along with the certificate they hold.

But without this, how would they be able to provide the primary training opportunity that CAP does to cadets in areas where there are no other aircraft available.

If they ever get rid of all the C-182s like they are doing C-172s they will have to cross this bridge again.

Thats why they have looked back  on it and decided to retain some C-172s over all for the purpose of flight training in areas where this is still a viable option and or heavy demand, or something. I know it's not like that everywhere, as we don't have C-172s in CA, much less anywhere in PCR if there are any left, they are going out fast.
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 12:13:51 PM »

You don't need 25 TO&L for a C-182 if you already hold a PPL or greater.  You only need have 100 HRs PIC.  The C-182 is not a complex aircraft.   Let's not add requirements that aren't there.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: 60-1 Question
 


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