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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?
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Poll
Question: Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?
Yes   -45 (39.8%)
No   -58 (51.3%)
No opinion   -10 (8.8%)
Total Members Voted: 113

Author Topic: Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?  (Read 13029 times)
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,974

« on: July 14, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »

I recently read about a local fire department that banned its employees from smoking while in uniform and I think this is something that we should consider.  I see it primarily as an image issue though a case could be made that it is a minor safety issue in regards to smoking in CAP buildings and vehicles and to an even lesser extent in regards to health issues that could impact our members during strenuous activities.   

These seem to be the applicable current CAP regulations regarding smoking (at least that I'm aware of)

CAPR 52-16 Cadet Program Mgt
Quote
h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.

(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.

(2) Senior members should exercise discretion when drinking alcoholic beverages or using tobacco products at CAP activities when cadets are present. Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco at all times when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter.

(3) Commanders may augment these rules as appropriate for specific situations, including, but not limited to, establishing designated smoking and non-smoking areas, or designating areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

CAPR 60-1 (Flying)
Quote
2-1. Basic Rules.
b. Smoking, aerobatic flight, spins (except instruction for a flight instructor certificate), parachuting and dropping of objects (except to save a life) from CAP aircraft are prohibited.

CAPR 60-3 Emergency Services (some stuff removed)
Quote
1-23. Prevention of Fatigue. CAP flight crews and ground teams will make a conscientious effort to avoid or reduce fatigue by
c. avoidance of excessive smoking;

I'm very surprised to find that we don't prohibit smoking in corporate-owned vehicles (from what I could tell from 77-1).  Is there a regulation somewhere prohibiting smoking in CAP-owned and/or managed buildings/hangers?  If not, I think there definetely should be. 
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BrandonKea
Seasoned Member

Posts: 427

« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:38:53 PM »

I think 52-16, while maybe not the "Smoking Regulation," spells it out fairly clear. In dealing with Cadets, Seniors should be conservative in their use of tobacco. Obviously it's not a habit we want our cadets to pick up. But the fact that the regulation empowers commanders to establish smoking and non-smoking areas makes it clear to me; it's a Commander's discretion call.

I think 60-1 is referring to aerobatic smoke, not tobacco smoke.

To my knowledge, there is no regulation prohibiting smoking in CAP owned vehicles or buildings.

As much as I am not a fan of smoking, I don't think we should really be focused on this issue. We have bigger fish to fry.
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Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP
Gunner C
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,748

« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 06:49:50 PM »

WIWA squadron CC, officers were not allowed to smoke in sight of cadets.  There was a separate smoking area outside the hanger - that part was mandated by the AF. 

WIWAC, we had an SM NCO who was a former TI at Lackland AFB.  He was emulated by all of the cadets and everything he did was considered cool.  He kept his cigarette pack in his sock - we thought that if we were going to be like him, we'd better do the same.  Some started smoking and keeping them in the same place.  I'm not convinced that we can show and example to cadets and not have them emulate it.

AF officers, while not proscribed from smoking, are not thought of well when they do.  It probably would have a bearing on an OER, while not overt, just enough to not put an officer at the top of his group.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 06:58:01 PM »

Many private corporations (mostly retail or food service) prohibit their employees from smoking on the premises.  Many times this is because of health code laws, but for many it is just for public perception and image.

My company permits smoking on the premises, but must comply with state law, which restricts smoking within 50 feet of any building entrance.

In my CAP unit, there isn't a single senior (or cadet for that matter) that smokes.  In all honesty, I think it's something that will eventually just fade out, especially with the increased taxes and restrictions being placed on smokers.

On another note, I saw this today which talks of a report which makes a recommendation to prohibit tobacco use on military bases.

http://www.fayobserver.com/Articles/2009/07/14/916969
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 07:13:19 PM by MIKE » Logged
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
Always Ready
Seasoned Member

Posts: 230

« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 07:03:28 PM »

For a lot of people, I think this falls under the common sense category. Most smokers understand that some people don't like being around the smoke or have some health issues that prevent them from being around smoke. Most people would not smoke in other people's cars or houses without permission. If anything, they are most likely to go outside to smoke. They usually, very graciously I might add, go out of their way to make sure no one can easily be offended by them smoking.

It's kinda like Seniors cussing, b.s.ing, and calling each other by their first names. There's a time and a place for it...not in front of cadets and not in front of the general public.

In my four years in CAP, I've only seen three people smoke while in a CAP uniform. All three people were in stressful situations and they made sure they were well away from cadets and other seniors.

Do I think it should be banned while in uniform? Yes. Should we be focusing on it? No. As Brandon said, we have bigger fish to fry.
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oak2007
Recruit

Posts: 33

« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 08:10:46 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too. Where and when is another story.  If you are going to change the regulations to band smoking, where will it end?. I know, let band farting while in uniform. Now that could be a major problem, its offensive, and it stinks, and with the amount of members that are full of hot air, that is one issue I could stand in front of, because I certainly wouldn't want to stand behind that issue.
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Phil Hirons, Jr.
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 803
Unit: NER-RI-001

« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 08:15:40 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too. Where and when is another story.  If you are going to change the regulations to band smoking, where will it end?. I know, let band farting while in uniform. Now that could be a major problem, its offensive, and it stinks, and with the amount of members that are full of hot air, that is one issue I could stand in front of, because I certainly wouldn't want to stand behind that issue.

Now I know this passes spell check, but the correct word is in the title.
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BrandonKea
Seasoned Member

Posts: 427

« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 08:30:28 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too. Where and when is another story.  If you are going to change the regulations to band smoking, where will it end?. I know, let band farting while in uniform. Now that could be a major problem, its offensive, and it stinks, and with the amount of members that are full of hot air, that is one issue I could stand in front of, because I certainly wouldn't want to stand behind that issue.

There's not a real correlation here between flatulence and smoking. One is a choice, the other is a bodily function. Also, there's nothing in the constitution guaranteeing the right to smoke.
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Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP
oak2007
Recruit

Posts: 33

« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 08:47:56 PM »

Thanks for the spell check professor.
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Rotorhead
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 09:11:57 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.
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Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ
Always Ready
Seasoned Member

Posts: 230

« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 09:20:28 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too. Where and when is another story.  If you are going to change the regulations to band smoking, where will it end?. I know, let band farting while in uniform. Now that could be a major problem, its offensive, and it stinks, and with the amount of members that are full of hot air, that is one issue I could stand in front of, because I certainly wouldn't want to stand behind that issue.

As you said, "Where and when is another story." I have no problem with smoking or with those who smoke. I've been known to smoke a cigar or two and if I could get my grand-dad's pipe, I'd smoke that on occasion.

As someone else has already stated in this thread, several employers and businesses prohibit smoking on their premises. That rule often includes customers, not just employees. Most schools also prohibit smoking by teachers and students on school grounds, regardless if it is outside or if students are around. It's a matter of setting a good example. Why should we be any different?

For example, I have no problems with using curse words, by me or anyone else. In fact, I often overuse them. When I'm at a CAP activity (especially if there are cadets or the general public around) or around people that I know that don't like curse words, I resist the urge to cuss. Smoking is no different my mind. It's not a bodily function or a right set forth by the constitution, it's a bad habit when done in excess.

ETA: I take that back, cussing is a right set forth by the constitution...freedom of speech...go figure ;D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 09:25:05 PM by Always Ready » Logged
CadetProgramGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,354

« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 09:35:17 PM »

Boys, this isn’t Nazi Germany, It is everyone’s constitutional right to smoke if they choose too. Where and when is another story.  If you are going to change the regulations to band smoking, where will it end?. I know, let band farting while in uniform. Now that could be a major problem, its offensive, and it stinks, and with the amount of members that are full of hot air, that is one issue I could stand in front of, because I certainly wouldn't want to stand behind that issue.

What about my right breathe clean air?  Why should I go out of my way to have that right?

Where I work, it is a writable offense (to the point of terminated) to be caught smoking at work.  (I work at a hospital)
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BrandonKea
Seasoned Member

Posts: 427

« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 09:38:44 PM »

We're getting off topic here.... :-\
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Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP
CadetProgramGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,354

« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 09:39:44 PM »

Sorry...

Yes I think smoking should not be allowed in any CAP activity
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,886

« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 07:58:54 AM »

CTWG has a policy which prohibits smoking in CAP vehicles, which I agree with.

I don't smoke, and never have. I do, however, have a problem with the political correctness that has invaded our society. If someone wants to enjoy a cigarette in uniform, why should I care?
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 08:22:14 AM »

  If someone wants to enjoy a cigarette in uniform, why should I care?

That's a fair question.

Why should you care?

Let's suppose a member has been asked to pick up a visiting CAP VIP at the airport in a CAP van - so the member is in uniform -  but the flight has been delayed a few hours, so the member has some time to kill.

Should you care if the member:

smokes in uniform?

Has a couple of shots of Jack in the airport bar in uniform ?

Plays the slots / video lottery in uniform?

Looks at porn while in uniform?

smokes marijuana in uniform (legal for over 20% of the population)?

Assume all of the above are lawful for the purposes of the discussion.

So when ARE you "your brothe's keeper?"

And when -  to avoid the dreaded "political correctness" - do you simply blow it off?

Great question.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:57:57 AM by MIKE » Logged
swamprat86
Seasoned Member

Posts: 217

« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 08:37:13 AM »

In NJ it is illegal to smoke in public buildings, which covers all the unit buildings, and we have a wing, if not region, policy of no smoking in vehicles.

Until CAP offers smoking cessation programs, which most employers who ban smoking offer their employees, we should not ban it.  Regulate it to minimize exposure to cadets and public, as we can, but not ban it.

BTW, I do not smoke, but I have several friends in CAP who do.
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wuzafuzz
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Posts: 1,160
Unit: CO-001

COWG Website
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 08:43:43 AM »

CAP has every right to protect and shape its public image.  IF CAP chose to ban smoking in uniform, in CAP vehicles or offices, etc members would have every right to vote with their feet.  It's not Nazi Germany because you have a choice.  People like to toss around the volunteer word as justification to blow off some rules, but in actuality we volunteered to follow them.

So should CAP ban all visible smoking?  The answer depends on the public image our leadership wishes to cultivate.  I'm not a fan of outright bans.  If someone chooses to smoke outside, leave them alone but go ahead and teach your cadets about the dangers of smoking.  Should CAP ban smoking indoors at CAP activities or in CAP vehicles?  I vote yes because lighting up in enclosed spaces forces smoker's choices on others.  VERY uncool.
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"You can't stop the signal, Mal."
AlphaSigOU
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Unit: PCR-NV-069

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 08:47:15 AM »

As an ex-smoker (smoke-free for 2-1/2 years and counting) I personally think that it's your choice whether you smoke or not, as long as you don't light up in a no smoking area. If you work with cadinks, don't light up around them. And if you're in uniform, keep Ma Blue happy and don't walk and smoke at the same time!  ;D
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
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Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
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BrandonKea
Seasoned Member

Posts: 427

« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 09:17:19 AM »

CAP has every right to protect and shape its public image.  IF CAP chose to ban smoking in uniform, in CAP vehicles or offices, etc members would have every right to vote with their feet.  It's not Nazi Germany because you have a choice.  People like to toss around the volunteer word as justification to blow off some rules, but in actuality we volunteered to follow them.

So should CAP ban all visible smoking?  The answer depends on the public image our leadership wishes to cultivate.  I'm not a fan of outright bans.  If someone chooses to smoke outside, leave them alone but go ahead and teach your cadets about the dangers of smoking.  Should CAP ban smoking indoors at CAP activities or in CAP vehicles?  I vote yes because lighting up in enclosed spaces forces smoker's choices on others.  VERY uncool.

Bingo.

Should there be a ban on smoking in vehicles and enclosed spaces with others around, probably.

The question, however, is should smoking be banned while in uniform.

I'll play Devil's Advocate for a second here, why is it ok that we prohibit cadets from tobacco usage when it may be perfectly legal, but Senior Members may do use it as they want?
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Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP
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