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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Hazing
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Author Topic: Hazing  (Read 6496 times)
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« on: June 19, 2006, 09:17:25 AM »

I forgot to mention about hazing. I dont se what the big issue about push ups is. The reason CAP stopped it is because it was getting out of hand and cadets were abusing junior cadets. This again goes back to my previous point that if proper Senior Member supervision were there, then senior cadets would not have abused push ups and we could stuill be doing that today.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 09:36:15 AM »

One person's "over the line" is another's "just getting started".

Easier and wiser to simply disallow it.

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Becks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 331

« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 10:07:50 AM »

Its still considered corporal punishment, which is expressly forbidden by CAP.  Not all cadets are able to do PT, which would include pushups and are then put in category IV(? maybe, i cant remember off the top of my head) for PT.  If you then make exceptions and dont have them do pushups when they mess up, the rest of the cadets would want to know why they have to do it and cadet A doesnt etc etc etc.  Youre better off finding something all cadets can do.  Ripping off an article from cadet stuff...."Let's start with figuring out what pushups do accomplish. Why do soldiers have to knock out a few from time to time?

    In Boot camp: Build fitness, get attention, wear you out.
    Active duty: Get attention.

Outside of boot camp, pushups are merely a break in the action to give you time to reflect - and hopefully remember - what it was you did wrong and correct it. Active duty troops PT five days a week: what's an extra twenty pushups for being late for formation? "

Now that we know that pushups following a mistake are merely an attention getter, let's do a quick examination of why you have the previous problems.
Why do Cadets and groups of Cadets make mistakes?

    * They don't know how or forgot.

    * They don't care.

So, for Cadet Snuffy, who feels like he doesn't have to salute Cadet officers: about five minutes practice whipping salutes at the flag pole or the garbage can and rendering appropriate greeting ("Good evening, sir!") while under the watchful eye of a junior NCO ought to do it."

Theres much more creative, and frankly effective punishments you can use for the cadet program.  I posted the link in your other thread but here is the article from cadet stuff again from which I quoted. http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118
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BBATW
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 12:42:24 PM »

Keep in mind a senior member may not observe a problem cadet making errors. And the problem is CPPT training is for senior members only. More often than not hazing is done by cadets to cadets. So there needs to be a CPPT class developed for cadets. Often cadets don't realize their actions are a form of hazing.  And senior members can't be two places at once to observe any and all activities of cadets in a unit. So the answer is to develop a CPPT program designed for cadets, to illustrate correct and incorrect methods of dealing with other cadets
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 02:00:16 PM »

Keep in mind a senior member may not observe a problem cadet making errors. And the problem is CPPT training is for senior members only. More often than not hazing is done by cadets to cadets. So there needs to be a CPPT class developed for cadets. Often cadets don't realize their actions are a form of hazing.  And senior members can't be two places at once to observe any and all activities of cadets in a unit. So the answer is to develop a CPPT program designed for cadets, to illustrate correct and incorrect methods of dealing with other cadets

Well... there is.  A couple of them, starting with CPPT.  As an ole' fart cadet, I was required to take it.  Now, it's a little more brief than my equivelant training, better known as Scouting's Youth Protection!  The third is covered in Required Staff Training (RST) for encampment.

Youth protection was once upon a time used by CAP.  I personally feel that it conveys more of a message, even to kids; but that's a whole nother topic.

Morale of the story: The training is there, just have to use it.

The problem: Most cadets will go overboard on saying, "CPP VIOLATION!"  I've run into it.  Then it gets worse when you correct the cadet and explain why it is not and why they are wrong, well most cadets I've encountered.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
pixelwonk
Alt-F4 pilot
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,106

« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 03:15:34 PM »



Youth protection was once upon a time used by CAP.  I personally feel that it conveys more of a message, even to kids; but that's a whole nother topic.

Morale of the story: The training is there, just have to use it.


SPOOOOOOON!

er, Amen to that.   ;)
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Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2006, 08:09:15 PM »

Why not have moral leadership officers work it into their curriculum's.  I think it would be an appropriate atmosphere for it.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2006, 10:41:38 PM »

What CPPT training is given to any cadet under 18?  CPPT must be taken within 6 months AFTER the 18th birthday. If a 16 year old takes it, it doesn't count. There is no specific training on CPPT, read that hazing, A modified CPPT training needs to be included in the cadet program dealing with hazing, and other areas of concern such as sexual harassment. The average Cadet Flight Sgt, has no concept of what is considered as harassment, hazing, or the other aspects of Cadet Protection. Granted there is a short program for cadet and senior staff at encampments, but does that apply to a cadet NCO that hasn't been in an encampment  staff or command position previously? The idea of including it as part of the Moral Leadership program makes sense. But where is the leadership from National to provide the program to MLO's or Chaplains?
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2006, 10:44:55 PM »

As a matter of fact, for whatever reason,  I believe presenting the senior CPT training is prohibited for cadets...
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,459
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 05:15:54 AM »

As a matter of fact, for whatever reason,  I believe presenting the senior CPT training is prohibited for cadets...
I teach Level I, and the 18 yo cadets get the same training that the SMs do. The cadet MUST be 18 to get credit for attending.

(BTW, Level I = Orientation Course + CPPT)
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 08:58:29 AM »

Hazing is an undefinable term. To sme people, making them do push ups is hazing. To someone else, staring at them for long periods is hazing, and yet to others, yelling at them is hazing, so you see you cannot say exactly what hazing is. 

Sure. push ups are used to develop endurance, but I realy wasnt focusing on push ups so much though, as the whole dicsipline issue. If a cadet gets out of hand, I would rather have him do some emporary punishment then kick him out (form 2b) of CAP. Heck, they do push ups in the Scouts.

Again, I think if Senior Members got more involved with cadet ttaing instead of leting the senior cadets do their own thing, you could control out of hand situations.

Yes, I am a military person and no I see nothing wrong with push ups just like they do in JROTC. whats the difference betwen CAP and JROTC? (JROTC is high school not college)
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CAPChap
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 09:31:44 AM »

The idea of including it as part of the Moral Leadership program makes sense. But where is the leadership from National to provide the program to MLO's or Chaplains?

Just to let you all know, this concept is being looked at. There's a proposal that came to the Winter National Board meeting this issue, and it's been referred to folks at NHQ to coordinate and develop a game plan.

It's my understanding that the "hitch in the giddy-up" is that there are sensitive legal issues (or so the legal eagles at NHQ tell us) when it comes to the issue of cadet-on-cadet sexual harassment.

The core issue here transcends hazing and sexual harassment. At the core is the issue of appropriate boundaries--who sets them, who defines what the acceptable standard is, etc.

Unfortunately Hollywood has given us some great movies with lousy role models--push ups in the rain and mud, drill instructors screaming at recruits, etc.   Add to this the current spiritual millieu of our nation, where many have a "boutique spirituality" that is a pastiche of beliefs and practices from several faith traditions.  Infuse all that with a healthy dose of the American Dream and rugged western individualism, and we wind up with a society that says "I will not allow someone else to define what is acceptable and unacceptable for me."   Consequently, the hazers and the harassers have a different perception of their behavior than do those who are being hazed or harassed.

On one hand, I agree that the Chaplain Service should be involved in addressing these issues. But on the other hand, I don't know if the Moral Leadership program is the appropriate forum for that discussion.  By its very nature, the Moral Leadership program is values-neutral, and designed to help cadets learn to think through moral and ethical decisions.  Lessons on these issues could be developed, but it's a very fine line to walk.

I am glad that our national leadership is seeking to address this. We must all work to ensure that the awareness of these issues flows down to the local units, and that information about problems flows up to the appropriate levels so it can be documented and corrected.


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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,653

« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 09:33:47 AM »

Well there are two problems with push ups as punishment.  First is the inappropriate use of this tool in untrained hands.  Too many SMs and Cadets just did not know when to call it quits.  The DIs at basic are trained when to draw the line.  Even active duty USAF no longer use it at basic.

Second....basic educational psychology.   How does making a cadet do 20 push ups help him to a facing movement better?  Or to remember the chain of command or what ever "infractions" they are used to punish.  

Yes...in a limited way they can contribute to the learning process....but there are better ways that are not the loaded gun push-ups can be.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2006, 10:53:38 AM »

*Engaging Devils Advocate Mode*

Well there are two problems with push ups as punishment.  First is the inappropriate use of this tool in untrained hands.  Too many SMs and Cadets just did not know when to call it quits.  The DIs at basic are trained when to draw the line.  Even active duty USAF no longer use it at basic.

So, why not train cadets and SMs?  Regs define everything else, why not define what would be a justified punishment for each infraction.

Second....basic educational psychology.   How does making a cadet do 20 push ups help him to a facing movement better?  Or to remember the chain of command or what ever "infractions" they are used to punish. 

I know that it does not seem to make sense, but pain and physical workouts teachs faster than anything else.  R. Lee Ermy in an interview about FMJ defined why they hit basics, his response was to the effect of: "I can tell a recruit to do something 10 times before he'd pick up on it, if I hit him once in the soloplex, he'd learn after the first time."

No, I'm not advocated we kick the snot out of cadets, however tempting that may be at times, I'm advocated a more physical approach to learning.  After you can't feel your arms, you're going to want to learn faster to save yourself a bunch of problems.

I know a gentlemen who did more pushups at his encampment than anyone else back in the 60's.  He finished the CP at C/Maj; he, and a SM friend of his started what is now and RCLS; and he has written a vast majority of ES training for the Wing, and handful for Region and Nat'l.

So tell me, did he turn out that bad from doing pushups?


Yes...in a limited way they can contribute to the learning process....but there are better ways that are not the loaded gun push-ups can be.

I would concur.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
Hammer
Forum Regular

Posts: 123

« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2006, 12:13:59 PM »

Heck, they do push ups in the Scouts.

Not anymore sir.  It's considered 'hazing' by BSA too.
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2006, 02:06:58 PM »

Its still considered corporal punishment, which is expressly forbidden by CAP.  Not all cadets are able to do PT, which would include pushups and are then put in category IV(? maybe, i cant remember off the top of my head) for PT.  If you then make exceptions and dont have them do pushups when they mess up, the rest of the cadets would want to know why they have to do it and cadet A doesnt etc etc etc.  Youre better off finding something all cadets can do.  Ripping off an article from cadet stuff.

So, for Cadet Snuffy, who feels like he doesn't have to salute Cadet officers: about five minutes practice whipping salutes at the flag pole or the garbage can and rendering appropriate greeting ("Good evening, sir!") while under the watchful eye of a junior NCO ought to do it."

Theres much more creative, and frankly effective punishments you can use for the cadet program.  I posted the link in your other thread but here is the article from cadet stuff again from which I quoted. http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118

In CAP context, there ought not be "punishment" of cadets....either they get remedial training (in other words, they can be brought on board with the program) or else they are encouraged to find some way they really WANT to spend their time
(either by a frank discussion with the cadet and parents, or if necessary, 2B)

Put simply, either the cadet wants to learn or not.

If the cadet wants to learn, then the remediation should fit the misdeed.
Punitive PT never fits this requirement.

Counseling should always be the first approach...not molly-coddling, but a calm, direct statement: "Here's what you did, here's what you should have done....do you understand?"

If I think it will help get the point across, I explain the reason behind rules....as a teaching tool, not because every cadet (or senior, either!) is entitled to a detailed explanation of everything that is required of them!

The problem with saluting the garbage can is that it is humiliating, which is also contrary to regulations ....and probably isn't the sort of thing most of us would want to do.

The problem with saluting the flag pole is that the cadet's failure was in not saluting a person, not a flag.

The role of cadet officers and non-coms is to lead (by personal example, first of all...do the cadet sergeants salute the cadet officers in the unit concerned in the original question?? Or do they simply greet each other by first names, because they go to school together?? Cadet airmen will mimic what they see their role models doing) models....it is also the job of the ranking cadets to teach their subordinates.

Seniors should be supervising the process, and guiding the cadet leaders....teaching them where necessary, and above all, setting the right example.

Just to be clear about my own credentials, I'm a former Earhart cadet, was DCC fo a composite squadron for about 7 years, and served as tac and commandant of cadets at our wing's encampment in the 80s (when we first started paying attention to cadet protection issues).
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capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2006, 04:31:08 PM »

Zigzag911 is right on the money.  The only thing I can add is that we as commanders were directed by Wing and Wing legals not to teach CPPT to the cadets until 18.  I will tell you that this is being looked at on a National level and there may be some changes coming down the line in the future.  Hazing is not an option in the program and cadets in leadership positions are not taught what is and what is not hazing.  There are a lot of senior members that either don't know or could care less.  A prominent senior member in our wing thinks it's okay to make a cadet get in front of other cadets in formation and sing "I'm a little teapot, short and stout, etc." Because they forgot their watch (as in timepiece) in the bathroom, while preparing for drill competition.  With this going on, how are the cadet leaders supposed to know what is right and what is wrong?  My cadets return from observing this activity and think it's funny and want to do it with their subordinates.  Not on my watch..  Too many years in CAP to try to buck the regs, especially since they really make sense if you have been around long enough to understand the program.
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,653

« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2006, 09:16:04 AM »

Heck, they do push ups in the Scouts.

Not anymore sir.  It's considered 'hazing' by BSA too.

It was considered hazing back in the '80 when I was a scout....but the BSA has the same problem as CAP does with people doing what they "think" is right vs. what is right.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2006, 01:26:45 PM »

The only thing I would add is that 52-10 does, in fact, define hazing right at the beginning of the reg, and spells out pretty clearly what can and can't be done....the example of running laps as punishment for poorly shined shoes as an example of 'non-remedial punishment'.

Physical fitness is an important element of the cadet program....giving it a negative connotation by using it for punishment is actually a self-defeating procedure.
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BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2006, 06:43:14 PM »

...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:35:36 PM by BlackKnight » Logged
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Hazing
 


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