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Author Topic: CAP Heritage Flight - Where are the L-4As?  (Read 8314 times)
stevetupper
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« on: May 30, 2006, 03:44:06 PM »

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am the public relations officer of the Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238) in southeast Michigan.  I came up with the following idea at a recent Michigan Wing assembly of public relations officers as we talked about the airshow at Willow Run Airport in Michigan.

You're probably already familiar with Heritage Flights (a vintage warbird with its modern equivalent flying on its wing - e.g. a P-51 Mustang and an F-16).

I think it would be a grand idea (and very consciousness-raising among the public about CAP) to arrange a Heritage Flight comprised of an L-4A (or other similar WWI vintage CAP aircraft in CAP livery) and a modern CAP Cessna 172.  I am sure that airshows would welcome such a flight.

I am therefore writing to ask whether you are aware of any operational Piper L-4As or similar CAP aircraft from the WWII era that are still in Civil Air Patrol livery.

Obviously, I would have a lot of work to do to get the authorization through CAP headquarters (I believe that formation flying is presently forbidden and there are probably other issues), but I'd be more than willing to take that on if I could locate a Grasshopper or similar aircraft  and interest the owner/pilot in participating.  I'm pretty sure that locating a CAP Cessna 172 and a formation-qualified pilot would not be a problem.

I'd appreciate any help you might be able to offer in identifying any existing Grasshoppers or similar aircraft.

Thanks in advance and best regards,

- Steve

Stephen L. Tupper, Capt., CAP
Public Affairs Officer, Recruiting Officer, and Legal Officer
Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238)
Civil Air Patrol (USAF Auxiliary)

39577 Woodward Avenue
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48304-2820
Phone: (248) 203-0895
Fax: (248) 203-0763
Skype: stevetupper
http://www.dykema.com/bio/stephentupper.htm

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Stephen L. Tupper, Capt., CAP
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Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238)
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 07:35:42 PM »

Its not just formation flying CAP aircraft are not alowed to participate at Air shows in ANY WAY other than static display.
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stevetupper
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 08:35:16 PM »

Understood.  A bridge to cross when we get there.
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Stephen L. Tupper, Capt., CAP
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Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238)
Civil Air Patrol
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2006, 01:00:00 AM »

Flying two CAP planes down the runway centerline during an airshow is not likely to void our insurance.  But it sure must be done with EVERYBODY'S permission. I's dotted and T's crossed.  Flying two CAP airplanes in the same geographic county at the same time may constitute "formation flying," however. That will be a more difficult hump to get over.

That having been said, I seem to recall that there was a gentleman from Port Huron (St. Clair County Airport) who had a Cub (L-4 or similar) painted in CAP WWII markings.  This was a number of years ago, back when taradactyls were the object of our SAR work, but who knows, he may still be flying it.

(IIRC, the last time I saw that plane was either the 1990 or 1994 Selfridge Airshow... I think...)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Al Sayre
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2006, 11:29:16 AM »

There was an L16 on trade-a-plane recently that had a CAP history, and CAP paint scheem without the actual CAP markings...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2006, 11:30:57 AM »

A member of my squadron has an L-4 that was formerly a CAP plane. Send me a PM and we can discuss. :)
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L. Ballard, Major, CAP
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2006, 01:06:57 PM »

You know, recalling the recent Heritage Flight shots over NYC posted on AF.mil (mmmmm, sweet!), I got to thinking about how a CAP Heritage Flight might look....

If you wanted to do it really well:

Lead the pack with the yellow L-4.  Off the left wing, C-172, right wing GA-8.  Now, if you REALLY wanted to get sporty, put one of the Maules in that formation towing a Blanik.. :)

(and everybody in the modern iron on the radio going "FASTER! FASTER!" with their stall horns blaring in the background...) :o

You'd need Tallmantz Aviation's B-25 with the optically correct tail window for the photo ship.  But, I mean, if you're gonna do this, do it whole hog and get the air-to-air visuals for recruiting, marketing and historical purposes.  Otherwise, 100,000 people are going to see a 25 second flyby and that's about it.  Lacking the Tallmantz B-25, I volunteer to hang out the side of another GA-8 with my Nikon. :)  I have the parachute already, so flight with the door open is a no-brainer for me.  (Door open in the GA-8 has you restricted to 90kts, but I don' t think that L-4 would be complaining...)

T'would require major waivers to 60-1, but I think it would be worth NHQ throwing some weight behind this one.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2006, 03:01:00 PM »

Set up a couple of video cameras (on the photo bird and on the ground) and you have some beautiful footage for PSA's commercials and the like.

Yep I think I will have a conversation with my Region PAO about this.

:)

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Capt Al Pabon
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AL PABON, Major, CAP
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2006, 04:20:33 PM »

Set up a couple of video cameras (on the photo bird and on the ground) and you have some beautiful footage for PSA's commercials and the like.

Yep I think I will have a conversation with my Region PAO about this.

Me thinks that to do this *right* (and get all the aircraft into the same frame, cuz, you know, photoshopping this would be bad..), the pilots would all have to be formation flying qualfied.  (this is for not only asthetics, but insurance reasons)

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184315-1.html and
http://www.b2osh.org/FFI%20documents/FFI%20Manual.pdf

And it might not be such a good idea to do this in conjunction with an airshow, in that case.  Maybe, maybe not.

But if you're going to go to the trouble to set it up, photography, and in particular air-to-air photography, is a must. An absolute must.  Subsequent opporitunities are likely to be very rare.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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pixelwonk
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2006, 11:53:05 PM »

...cuz, you know, photoshopping this would be bad...

the heck you say!  :)
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NIN
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2006, 12:33:10 AM »

...cuz, you know, photoshopping (BY ANYBODY BUT TEDDA) this would be bad...

the heck you say!  :)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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BillB
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 02:03:21 AM »

Nin....All CAP L-4's were silver, not yellow. They originally has standard USAF markings with a CAP decal behind the door. In about 1949, they were transferred from USAF to CAP and were given N numbers and USAF markings were removed. I've tried sending the photo as an attachment but AOL dies when i do.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2006, 02:23:07 AM »

I've tried sending the photo as an attachment but AOL dies when i do.

Don't use AOL.  ;D  Upload it here.
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Mike Johnston
stevetupper
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2006, 04:21:12 PM »

<(Door open in the GA-8 has you restricted to 90kts, but I don' t think that L-4 would be complaining...)>

Kalamazoo used to (and probably still does on occasion) do a flight of the Grumman cats.  Wildcat, Hellcat, Bearcat (Tigercat??? Can't remember if they had one) and F-14 Tomcat.  Wildcat with its tongue hanging out and leaned for speed and the Tomcat with wings fully deployed and ready to fall out of the sky.  For the Missing Man pass, the Tomcat would light 'em up and streak up and away.  You hear all readial engines on the approach and nothing but the thunder of the F-14 after they pass.  I challenge anyone to remain unmoved by that display.
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Stephen L. Tupper, Capt., CAP
PAO, Recruiting Officer, and Legal Officer
Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238)
Civil Air Patrol
stevetupper
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 04:45:24 PM »

Thanks to you all for the great comments.  What a collaborative board and a pleasure to post here!

Please feel free to run with this idea if you have better connections than I do.  I don't need to own it.  Capt. Pabon, please do take it up with the regional PAO.  I'll be happy to help out or coordinate if I can be of assistance.  All I really want is to look up sometime and see the flight.  In the meantime, I'll keep knocking on door and making phone calls.

If the flight happens at an airshow or other occasion, let's make sure that the narrator or announcer knows what's going on and really plugs the historical significance.  Given the speed of the flight and the necessary separation from the other related flights, there should be plenty of time.  This will likely really touch the civilians who lived through WWII and even the younger "Band of Brothers" -watching folks.  This is the epitome of the civilian's answer to the call and the connection with our key civilian audiences and recruiting base should be immediate and visceral.  It's a mantle that CAP deserves to wear and we should wear it.

If we got footage from aloft, boy what a grand thing that would be! 

On to practicalities.  I have a list of L-4s from the FAA registry and will probably put out a mailing sometime soon to ask the registered owners if the aircraft happen to be in the proper livery and whether they're airworthy/available.  Any better ideas are welcome. 

Please keep the comments coming.  If I can be of assistance in any effor that you undertake, please contact me.

Best regards,

- Steve

(Contact information above.  E-Mail:  stupper@dykema.com.)

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Stephen L. Tupper, Capt., CAP
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Oakland Composite Squadron (GLR-MI-238)
Civil Air Patrol
BillB
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 08:43:15 PM »

Here is a 1950 photo of a CAP-USAF L-4


* L4~test.JPG (20.5 kB, 672x288 - viewed 31 times.)
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2006, 01:12:17 AM »

<(Door open in the GA-8 has you restricted to 90kts, but I don' t think that L-4 would be complaining...)>

Kalamazoo used to (and probably still does on occasion) do a flight of the Grumman cats.  Wildcat, Hellcat, Bearcat (Tigercat??? Can't remember if they had one) and F-14 Tomcat.  Wildcat with its tongue hanging out and leaned for speed and the Tomcat with wings fully deployed and ready to fall out of the sky.  For the Missing Man pass, the Tomcat would light 'em up and streak up and away.  You hear all readial engines on the approach and nothing but the thunder of the F-14 after they pass.  I challenge anyone to remain unmoved by that display.

Oh yes, The AZO Air Zoo had a Tigercat. I think they were known for the completeness of their Cat collection.  Someplace around here I think I have a photo of it. 

I last stopped there enroute home from a GLR SAR at Valpariso, IN (Actual, not practice) with my squadron's ground team and a bunch of other folks. We walked in, said "Hey, we were in the area and thought we'd stop.." and the lady said "Come on in, admission is waived for you guys..."  That was nice.  Gosh, that must have been, uh, 1993? 1992?  We were in BDUs, I remember that.  1993, I think.

I think the concept of a CAP Heritage Flight display is a good one.  At the very least, a ground static display featuring an L-4 flanked by current day iron and a recruiting table would be awesome.

Problems with the flying display is obviously the formation flight restrictions (ugh, they really make getting good air-to-air shots hard, and air-to-air shots are sexy for recruiting) and the airshow restriction.   Both, I think, would be easy to get exceptions to policy for.



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Becks
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 02:31:13 PM »

This sounds great, it would sure be wonderfull for recruitment. I hope you the best of luck with this.
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BBATW
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2006, 01:34:15 AM »

By way of suggestion, why not use a Heritage Cub with CAP markings from WWII?  Heritage Cubs run about $80,000 for a VFR-only model.  I'll have it painted and fly it, if you buy it!
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Another former CAP officer
RocketPropelled
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2006, 02:28:28 AM »

I'll have it painted and fly it, if you buy it!

Ah, that Kachenmeister. Always a giver. :)
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