Custom and Courtesies Regs

JayT · March 28, 2009, 05:36:54 PM

Quote from: jpizzo127 on March 25, 2009, 06:57:38 PM
Where can the regs be found for customs and courtesies.

Sorry to sound like a complete noob.

If it's any consolation, I certainly know the uniform regs are CAPR 39-1

I found a pamphlet on C&C but it seemed to mostly apply to visiting dignitaries, etc.

CAPM 39-1 is the uniform, dress, and appearance manual.

MIKE · March 28, 2009, 09:02:05 PM

They are not a sergeant or a colonel... They're a cadet. Shorter to type and to say than Cadet Staff Sergeant Bloggs... If you think that is beneath you... well tough... you're a cadet... release some of the air pressure in your skull and deal.

G+10 · March 30, 2009, 05:00:12 PM

I was brought up that senior members ALWAYS addressed cadets as "Cadet Smith" and NEVER by "Major Smith" or even "Cadet Major Smith." This was supported by CAPP 151 in the note on paragraph 2e, "NOTE Cadets are addressed as 'Cadet' by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel..."

Looking are Respect on Display, they contradict that on page 16, "Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title 'Cadet'"

I wonder if the writers of Respect on Display know of upcoming changes or perhaps they were just not aware of what CAPP 151 says on the topic...

I'm kidding on the last thing there...

jimmydeanno · March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM

The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.

The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.

EMT-83 · March 30, 2009, 05:34:06 PM

Unless you're well "in tune" with the cadet program, it's almost impossible to keep up with cadet promotions. It's always safe to use "cadet" and not give the impression that you don't know, or care, about your cadets.

Phil Hirons, Jr. · March 30, 2009, 05:38:02 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.

The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.

Quote from: G+10 on March 30, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
I was brought up that senior members ALWAYS addressed cadets as "Cadet Smith" and NEVER by "Major Smith" or even "Cadet Major Smith." This was supported by CAPP 151 in the note on paragraph 2e, "NOTE Cadets are addressed as 'Cadet' by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel..."

Looking are Respect on Display, they contradict that on page 16, "Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title 'Cadet'"

I don't think the questions here is if "Cadet Major Smith" is correct, but if "Major Smith" (or Chief Jones, Sgt Frank) is.
Before we had senior NCO grades, it only seemed an issue with cadet officers.

G+10 · March 31, 2009, 04:38:27 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.

The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.

Absolutely not, I have no problem at all calling them by their grade. Your mention of '...the previous rendition of 151..." got me thinking I was referencing an out of date pub, but during my search I now see that 'Respect on Display' is a replacement to CAPP 151. If that is what the new guidance is then I'm good to go!

Flying Pig · March 31, 2009, 04:55:55 PM

If a senior military officer can refer to a junior officer by their first name, then I can call a cadet "Cadet". If a Marine Officer can refer to me as "Marine" and me not take it as an insult, as a Senior member, I can call a Cadet "Cadet".

G+10 · March 31, 2009, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 31, 2009, 04:55:55 PM
If a senior military officer can refer to a junior officer by their first name, then I can call a cadet "Cadet". If a Marine Officer can refer to me as "Marine" and me not take it as an insult, as a Senior member, I can call a Cadet "Cadet".

I think you are also good to go. They are leaving both as an option in this draft of 151, 'Cadet' and 'Airman Smith.'

On the other hand, if you are addressing the thought that some people will take being referred to as 'Cadet' as some sort of slight, then that is something that I wouldn't personally be worried about. They are a cadet and that is that.

Flying Pig · March 31, 2009, 05:18:24 PM

I agree. Some, and I reiterate "SOME" cadets I have talked to believe the term "Cadet" is an insult. They believe "I have earned the rank of Captain, and I should be referred to as a Captain, not Cadet." What they don't understand is they are still in the growing phase of life. By no means have the "arrived" anywhere. Understand the big picture is what I try to explain to them. Someday they will.
As a cadet with a chest full of "cadet medals", who also got all caught up in the "Im a 1Lt, not a cadet" syndrome, believing I was bigger than I was, I got a harsh dose of reality on day 1 of USMC Boot Camp. At that point I realized CAP had done nothing more than put me on the right path to START life in the big-boy world.

Always Ready · March 31, 2009, 06:06:26 PM

I guess I was on the other side of the aisle on this one. WIWAC, I hated being called by my grade (i.e. Chief or L.T.) by Senior Members. I preferred to be called Cadet. If another Cadet wanted to call me Chief or L.T. that was fine.

Now, as a TFO, I get a lot of flak from Seniors and Cadets for calling Cadets by the term 'Cadet'. Cadets want me to call them by their grade to make me seem equal to them. There are three or four cadets around my age, older and younger, who think that because of my age I'm just a special cadet. What some of them don't realize is that I would out rank them if I was still a cadet (which they wouldn't like

). I got my Mitchell. I did my time and achieved all of my goals as a Cadet. The SMs in my unit see me as a junior SM or a Cadet Officer of sorts. So I am a strong advocate for calling Cadets "cadets". It's not meant to be a demeaning term. It's meant to provide a distinction between the 'Cadet side' and the 'SM side'. _{Notice I made sure not to say "Officer side"}

Flying Pig · March 31, 2009, 06:24:48 PM

The infantry taught me valuable lessons in life. One of those lessons was understanding my place in the food chain. it seemed to make life easier.
It also taught me there are stupid questions, and you only get to ask so many of them until you become a marked man. But thats another thread.

Eclipse · March 31, 2009, 06:27:13 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 31, 2009, 05:18:24 PM
I agree. Some, and I reiterate "SOME" cadets I have talked to believe the term "Cadet" is an insult. They believe "I have earned the rank of Captain, and I should be referred to as a Captain, not Cadet." What they don't understand is they are still in the growing phase of life. By no means have the "arrived" anywhere. Understand the big picture is what I try to explain to them. Someday they will.

Quote from: Always Ready on March 31, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Now, as a TFO, I get a lot of flak from Seniors and Cadets for calling Cadets by the term 'Cadet'. Cadets want me to call them by their grade to make me seem equal to them.

They've earned the grade of "Cadet Captain", etc., not captain.

I've seen this, too. Its symptomatic of a greater problem in society at large where the media treats adolescents as "mini adults", and parents want to be "friends" with their kids.

Its also propagated by many senior members who act the same way. I've seen seniors out of the CP for ten years who still act (and make requisite poor related decisions) as if they were still cadets.

That doesn't mean I don't have enormous respect for many cadets I deal with, some of whom have accomplished twice as much I had I at the same age, but knowing your "place" in the universe is an important lesson, and sometimes a hard reality sandwich.

CAP is the perfect place to provide that within the structure of the rest of the program.

Flying Pig · March 31, 2009, 06:41:09 PM

What I find interesting, and often see as a method for someone lacking, is people who think that somehow your age or years of service qualifies you to do anything. We have longevity awards for a reason. We would be in a sad state if we awarded authority or rank based on age. It may buy you some time, but in the end, it means nothing unless you bring something to the table to back it up.

CAP, I think, is one of the best tools around to teach youth these lessons. A program to teach cadets at an early age that they cannot hide behind titles, or ranks, because people WILL figure you out. They may have to tolerate you, but they do not have to respect you. If everyone takes off their rank, who will they follow? You? Are you even a runner up? If its not you, then you have the opportunity to ask yourself "Why?" and fix it before it really matters. Where will it matter? On the Battlefield? In the Business world? The answers are as diverse as the paths our cadets choose.
They learn You will be judged by what you get accomplished and the reputation you can maintain amongst your peers. The cadets have the opportunity to learn some life lessons in a controlled environment. They have the opportunity to shop and test drive leadership techniques. If they chose one that didnt work, they can go back to the store and test driver another technique. By the time its over, they will probably not have figured it all out, but they should at least have a foundation started to know how to continue. They get a start on life a lap or two ahead of their peers. Whether they keep the lead or get lapped later on in life is beyond our control. Teaching cadets that in life, everyone is equal but your influence is not, is a valuable lesson.

G+10 · April 01, 2009, 04:27:51 PM

So is it possible this proposed revision to CAPP 151 allowing senior members to use the term 'Cadet' or 'Airman Smith' is not the right path? Perhaps the original authors of 151 limited the form of address for a reason?

It makes no nevermind to me, I'll probably address cadets as 'Cadet' simply through force of habit. Also it appears the draft instructs you to use the form of address as "Colonel Smith" rather than "Cadet Colonel Smith." I don't think I can support that.

BuckeyeDEJ · April 01, 2009, 04:42:34 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.

The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.

They're not officers nor airmen -- they're cadets, a third strata of members. While cadets carry grade, the only grade that matters is "cadet."

Turtle1 · April 01, 2009, 04:54:14 PM

For the most part I address the cadets in our squadron as Cadet Smith etc. but if the cadet is above the rank of Major I will address them with their current grade and name. I really do not have a problem with Officers addressing Cadets as Cadet because that is what they are, it just seems that some people do not know how to say it without sounding derogatory.