Promotions for Advanced Degrees

[DBlair]

A recent conversation with several Senior Members brought up an interesting point that I wanted to seek out the opinions of those on this site.

CAPR35-5 (Figure 7, etc) allows for promotions based upon academic degrees for Chaplains, Health Service Personnel, Teachers (serving as AE Officers), Lawyers, and Finance Officers up through the grade of Major.

Below is a brief synopsis of the information per CAPR35-5:

Chaplains:
Bachelor's Degree = 1stLt
Bachelor's Degree+Seminary Degree = Captain
Doctoral Degree = Major
   
Health Service Personnel:
Registered Nurse, Physician's Assistant, or related Bachelors/Masters = 1stLt
Physician, Dentist, or other professional with Doctorate = Captain
Physician appointed as unit's health service program officer = Major

Teachers (as AE Officers):
Professor/Teacher w/ Bachelors = 1stLt or Capt (depending on experience)
Professional Educator w/ Doctorate = Major

Lawyers (Legal Officer):
Licensed Attorney = Captain
Licensed Attorney w/ 10yrs practicing experience = Major

Finance Officers:
HS Diploma w/ 5yrs experience or an Associates Degree = 1stLt
Bachelors degree in Accounting = Captain
Masters degree in Accounting = Major


As these officers are promoted based upon their degrees and advanced degrees, shouldn't all advanced degrees justify some sort of advanced promotion? In the conversation I referenced at the beginning, there were SMs with a MS (ITM), PhD (Business Administration or International Business), MBA, and a few other degrees.

They were expressing the concern that (for example) an Associates in Accounting = 1stLt and a Bachelors in Accounting = Captain and yet a Masters or Doctoral degree in another business field would have them still as SMWOG.

They mentioned an interesting point that either no special promotions should be awarded based on degrees, or there should be some sort of provision for those with other advanced degrees to likewise be promoted.

CAPR35-5 does include a provision for special cases, but they require region or national approval and the regulation is somewhat vague as to exactly what would justify a special case, etc.

Any thoughts on this matter?

[Eclipse]

The assumption is supposed to be that the advanced degree brings with it a mission-related skill that the member will bring to bear within the program.  Increasingly Wing and Region CC's are insisting on seeing that performance before considering an advance promotion.

Not all degrees are applicable to CAP, nor should one be promoted simply for possessing the degree itself.

A Ph.D in Art History or Ancient Languages would be of little direct value to CAP.

Same goes for a business degree.  Presumably an Accountant is considered in the role of finance officer (not that our finances, even at the Wing level require a CPA), but a business major, per se, would not have much relevant experience to bring to CAP based purely on the degree alone.  (Successful businessmen, on the other hand, generally make good leaders, managers, and motivators in the CAP context as well).

Now an Accountant, not interested in performing as a Finance Manager, should not be considered for advanced promotion based on his degree.

Same in my universe goes for pilots - show me a completed form 5 and some time in the seat flying for CAP and we can discuss advance grade.

[RiverAux]

The solution is to have no advanced promotions for any reason and that all CAP members should go through the exact same steps to get rank.

[Major Carrales]

The solution is to have no advanced promotions for any reason and that all CAP members should go through the exact same steps to get rank.

As a person who came "up the ranks" I have never used this (for myself).  It seems I could be a "captain" or so with my current level of experience.  If I had it all to do again, I still would not accept the rank.  I gained a much richer experience in CAP coming up in grade.  My main fear was having a rank, like 1st Lt, and knowing nothing and having to turn away people who had questions with "sorry, I'm new here."

Eclipse is correct, Group V of  Texas Wing, for example, will not automatically extend the grade unless it can be proven that said member is using or intends to use this degree for CAP service (i.e. taking a related staff position.

I should point out that "brevet" rank, as some have chosen to all it, should never be used as a recruiting tool.

The "Hey, if you join I can make you a Captain" is not the best way.  I admit, that this was done in my unit prior to my command.

I usually "spring" this on someone after they have complete Level I.

I should also say that  I had to learn all this in my first month of command.

[DBlair]

The solution is to have no advanced promotions for any reason and that all CAP members should go through the exact same steps to get rank.

I agree. All too often, these advanced promotions are used as recruiting tools and result in certain people feeling neglected and other people being promoted without much experience in CAP- which also in some cases causes others to not take Senior grades seriously.

I understand certain promotions based upon Cadet Program milestones as this reflects experience in CAP, but I think when promotions are tied to certain staff positions and not others, it makes things somewhat messy. For example, a SM with a Masters in IT or ITM doesn't get promoted even if serving as an IT Officer, but then others in different specialties get promoted with just a Bachelors. I think this has a souring effect for some.

I agree with Major Carrales, going up through the program is something that involves substantial experience in CAP and to have promotions awarded before really even getting involved with the program risks the potential for people holding higher grade and not having a clue what is going on. This could get messy.

I've seen this many times and as a former Cadet, I must admit this is part of why Cadets sometimes roll their eyes at Senior grades because they often feel like Senior promotions are given and not earned because of these *special* promotions, etc.

[SaBeR33]

Keep in mind these kinds of promotions are almost in line with what the RM does in that doctors and chaplains start as Captains (I think the latter must have a Masters in Divinity...or is it Theology?), and nurses and lawyers start as 1st Lt.s. But of course, these promotions are only effective due to those servicemembers performing the duties for which their professional degrees were awarded. IMHO, I think the promotion levels CAP provides are too high for the positions, but that isn't my call. At least Wing(?) CCs have the authority to deny such promotions if they feel the applicant doesn't warrant it due to not serving in a capacity that neither merits the grade under consideration nor benefits the organization.

[DBlair]

Keep in mind these kinds of promotions are almost in line with what the RM does in that doctors and chaplains start as Captains (I think the latter must have a Masters in Divinity...or is it Theology?), and nurses and lawyers start as 1st Lt.s. But of course, these promotions are only effective due to those servicemembers performing the duties for which their professional degrees were awarded. IMHO, I think the promotion levels CAP provides are too high for the positions, but that isn't my call. At least Wing(?) CCs have the authority to deny such promotions if they feel the applicant doesn't warrant it due to not serving in a capacity that neither merits the grade under consideration nor benefits the organization.

While this is true, with the exception being the Marine Corps, those specialties are never for line officers and so they wouldn't ever have command and they would progress only within that specialty track. This is why if a lawyer or doctor joins the military (other than the USMC), they do not have to go through the same OCS (they get a highly abbreviated version) and other training as do the line officers as they will never be allowed to actually command in the traditional manner.

In the Marine Corps, all officers are line officers which is part of the saying "every Marine is a rifleman, every Marine Officer is a Platoon Commander" as every Officer is trained and prepared the same way up until their specialty school in order that in case they may be needed, they could command an infantry platoon without issue. Granted, MC lawyers do get to be a 1stLt because of this specialty, but when you think about the time it would take after OCS with possibly finishing law school and attending TBS and NJS, they could almost be ready for the promotion anyway.

In CAP, as we all know, these officers that receive special promotions are essentially "line officers" in that after receiving the promotion, they are considered equal to other officers of the same grade and not restricted to a specialty. In theory, they could switch to another specialty or potentially command a unit. This is where it could get messy and complicated as they wouldn't have the experience in CAP that another of the same grade probably would.

[heliodoc]

Hey
I'd like a CAP CPT for all those days I had to run map and compass courses and today, as a Forester and wildland firefighter 'cuz I STILL use map and compass and GPS marking off corners and assisting in some timbers sales

Lets say getting a CAP CPT 'cuz my day job mirrors just about any ground team operation when I am in the woods survivin another day at work

Think I 'm serious???  I am not.  I got advanced training and working on advanced degree now.... and I REALLY do not need CAP bling for what I do in my real life............................

[DogCollar]

Keep in mind these kinds of promotions are almost in line with what the RM does in that doctors and chaplains start as Captains (I think the latter must have a Masters in Divinity...or is it Theology?), and nurses and lawyers start as 1st Lt.s. But of course, these promotions are only effective due to those servicemembers performing the duties for which their professional degrees were awarded. IMHO, I think the promotion levels CAP provides are too high for the positions, but that isn't my call. At least Wing(?) CCs have the authority to deny such promotions if they feel the applicant doesn't warrant it due to not serving in a capacity that neither merits the grade under consideration nor benefits the organization.

While this is true, with the exception being the Marine Corps, those specialties are never for line officers and so they wouldn't ever have command and they would progress only within that specialty track. This is why if a lawyer or doctor joins the military (other than the USMC), they do not have to go through the same OCS (they get a highly abbreviated version) and other training as do the line officers as they will never be allowed to actually command in the traditional manner.

In the Marine Corps, all officers are line officers which is part of the saying "every Marine is a rifleman, every Marine Officer is a Platoon Commander" as every Officer is trained and prepared the same way up until their specialty school in order that in case they may be needed, they could command an infantry platoon without issue. Granted, MC lawyers do get to be a 1stLt because of this specialty, but when you think about the time it would take after OCS with possibly finishing law school and attending TBS and NJS, they could almost be ready for the promotion anyway.

In CAP, as we all know, these officers that receive special promotions are essentially "line officers" in that after receiving the promotion, they are considered equal to other officers of the same grade and not restricted to a specialty. In theory, they could switch to another specialty or potentially command a unit. This is where it could get messy and complicated as they wouldn't have the experience in CAP that another of the same grade probably would.

I can really only speak of CAP Chaplains.  Chaplains are given "rank but not command."  Chaplains are specifically excluded from commanding anything outside of chaplaincy.  Now, after the recent National Boards, to be promoted, Chaplains must complete the same professional development tasks that all regular (line) CAP officers achieve.  This is not true for Doctors or Lawyers I believe.  They are not required to participate in any specialty track or professional development to promote.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Here not too long ago I was in an interview for am Apprentice position for an Electrical Union.  They asked me how CAP related to this Apprenticeship.

This was my response:

"When I started CAP, i didn't know anything about what I was doing or how I was going to do it.  But in the end of 6 years and after learning to run squadrons, meetings, Encampments, learning the tricks of the job, and earning rank, i can say without a doubt that I have earned my Journeyman's certificate in CAP, and that is how it relates to this Apprenticeship"

So would advanced rank for advanced degrees help?  No not really, but then again all of our rank is ceremonial at best.

[SaBeR33]

Good posts, one and all. Oh, and DBlair, thanks for reminding me about the differences as far as Marines are concerned with the motto of "every Marine is a rifleman" where their day-to-day jobs are essentially secondary to being rifleman. Too bad the Army doesn't have the same mindset as the Marines in this respect. That mentality may be changing with the number of non-infantry, support types now constantly going into harm's way, which undoubtedly had something to do with the establishment of the Combat Action Badge. Sorry about getting off topic.

[Grumpy]

Here's an idea, base the rank on how much you pay to join.  I believe the Confederate Air Force (Can't remember their new title) gives you colonel for $200.   

I'm so bad.

[arajca]

Here's an idea, base the rank on how much you pay to join.  I believe the Confederate Air Force (Can't remember their new title) gives you colonel for $200.   

I'm so bad.

Commemerative Air Force. It's the PC thing.

[DBlair]

Here's an idea, base the rank on how much you pay to join.  I believe the Confederate Air Force (Can't remember their new title) gives you colonel for $200.   

I'm so bad.

Commemerative Air Force. It's the PC thing.

Its only $19.95 (or best offer) to be a CSA Army or AF Colonel, or Navy Captain on eBay, maybe they are having a sale on commissions... lol
http://cgi.ebay.com/Army-Officers-Needed-Now-DIRECT-COMMISSION-GUARANTEED_W0QQitemZ6620226160QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

[RogueLeader]

Sorry, I'm already a Nebraskan Admiral.  Don't need another rank.

As for the topic, I feel that the only advanced grade should be those that have a direct tie-in to a duty position, and only if you are filling the primary slot.

[Short Field]

Here's an idea, base the rank on how much you pay to join.  I believe the Confederate Air Force (Can't remember their new title) gives you colonel for $200.   

If anyone needs the rank that bad and gets off on wearing a military uniform - check out these groups:
http://www.usavr.net/
http://www.usndfscom.com/
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies253.htm

And get a PHD while you are at it:  http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?t=27649