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Author Topic: The CAP Culture  (Read 14401 times)
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 05:24:47 PM »

We are not military.  So get over it.

Those who insist on forcing military protocol on a non-military organization, on members who don't care to be military when they are not, are creating F Troop.

Many members want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms.  Without rank.

That is better than when so many wear Air Force style, and wear it wrong.  Which is more embarassing?

And what about my good friend from Kansas who just doesn't want to wear Lt Col in CAP, when he was an O-6 in the real Air Force?

What we need is more diversity training.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 05:32:02 PM by DG » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,232

« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 05:28:38 PM »

^ Sorry, we're paramilitary with specific regulations (as well as traditions) that are not optional.

Don't want to wear rank?  Fine, your call.  That doesn't relieve you of adhering to customs and courtesies.

Just want to "fly for free"?  Fine, your call.  That doesn't relieve you of adhering to customs and courtesies.

Don't like the paramilitary environment?  I'm sure the ARC, Salvation Army, or your local CERT will be very happy to engage your services - and when you get a look at the rules and training requirements that the ARC has, you may be surprised.

And what about my good friend from Kansas who just doesn't want to wear Lt Col in CAP, when he was an O-6 in the real Air Force?

His call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 05:33:32 PM by Eclipse » Logged


DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 05:43:11 PM »

We all observe customs and courtesies.

You want to salute?  Fine.  And I will respect you for that.
 
But don't criticize me, when I put my hand over my heart.

And please observe properly, especially on a military installation. 
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DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2009, 05:48:02 PM »

His call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.

???

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?

I don't know of any.  Guess I don't get out much.

(But really I do get around and I do pay attention.)

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?


« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:47:17 PM by DG » Logged
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,063

« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2009, 06:23:30 PM »

Example: Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col.  But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars.  But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform :)
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,232

« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2009, 07:00:27 PM »

His call, but in response I'd point to the O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters and serving proudly.

???

O-7's all over CAP wearing clusters?

Yes, an O-7 as in Retired Army Brigadier General.  Until fairly recently he was in my unit and wore his clusters with little comment.   As a matter of fact he was a legit SF guy with jump wings and all - used to command a hospital unit as I recall. Heck of a nice guy, too.

As a pilot/doctor/general we used to kid him about having no room to ever be wrong about anything because of conflicting God complexes.

He has since moved on to the CGAux and ARC as he preferred to fly his own airplane, and I can assure you he is not a Rear Admiral in the CGAux, yet somehow he finds the strength to get out of bed each morning.

There are a lot more former stars in CAP than you probably realize.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,974

« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2009, 09:27:10 PM »

Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,232

« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2009, 09:46:33 PM »

Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.

You'd might also be surprised how quickly members will step up when the commander starts raising the bar on expectations.
It all starts and ends there - if the CC is a slacker on the uniform and courtesies, what can you expect from the membership?
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2009, 09:46:39 PM »

Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

Unfortunately I think you're right.  When I was a cadet I was in an overseas squadron where nearly 100% of the seniors and cadets were military or dependents.  I guess I got spoiled being in an environment where there was never any question about uniforms, customs and courtesies, and our place as an auxiliary of the AF.  The military was more than accommodating and I remember getting parachute survival training in a swimming pool, a ride on a Navy cruiser through the Panama Canal, and hosting of our encampments.

You can definitely tell the difference between squadrons on or near military bases where we embrace that influence vs. the civilian type squadrons who aren't all that interested.  I know that one cadet I was there with went to the AF Academy and I think two others got ROTC scholarships and that was considered normal.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 09:47:26 PM by MIKE » Logged
RiverAux
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Posts: 10,974

« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2009, 11:06:43 PM »

Quote
1/2 the people aren't wearing the golf shirt - certainly not exclusively.  Its an appropriate uniform for certain kinds of duty and is the same thing worn regulalry by similar services.
Oh, I know I've been to my share of functions where the golf shirt has been 50%+, and I think it is inarguable in saying that it isn't becoming more common.  A recent photo of a Wing-level PD class in my wing shows 15/20 members in attendence wearing the golf shirt (2 in the AF blues, 2 in aviatior shirts, and 1 in civilian clothes).   A review of photos of the same class in 2 previous years shows a definite and significant trend towards the golf shirt. 

The others services have similar shirts, but it is not a common uniform used on almost all occassions by many members. 

If we were all in military-style uniforms of some sort, a military sort of culture could be retained if the leaders worked at it and set the example. 
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JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,338

« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2009, 11:08:12 PM »

Although I would prefer CAP have a more "military" culture I've come to the conclusion that with the adoption of the golf shirt uniform which is being worn by an increasing percentage of seniors there is just no way to make it work.  When half the people aren't wearing any vestiges of rank or name there, how you can you really follow military C&C? 

You seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.

Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,974

« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2009, 11:13:47 PM »

Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?

No, if you consider the general lack of military customs and courtsies a problem in CAP, then the golf shirt is not the cause, but more of an impediment.  What I was saying was that so long as the golf shirt is around, its going to be very difficult to expect members to follow military C&C when they are in totally civilian clothes, especially when two members who do not know each other meet.

Quote
You seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.
Well, CAP members are required by regulation to follow military C&C, so I think expecting that this be the case isn't unreasonable of me.  Perhaps CAP should drop those regulations so that the culture matches the regulations, but until they do its not me that is the problem, it is the people not doing what they're supposed to.
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DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2009, 11:28:05 PM »

To quote a favorite expression of my Region Vice Commander,

"It is what it is."

And it takes all of my energy and ability to figure out the way it is.

No way I can begin to ascertain and then tell you the way it should be.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:55:37 PM by DG » Logged
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2009, 11:40:47 PM »

The traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies for members of the Civil Air Patrol apply to all of us and reflect our pride and professionalism as members of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2009, 11:47:31 PM »

The thing is, were are like the SDF, its just not taught and enforced properly.

We're supposed to salute, use "Sir" liberally, bring a room to attention when a commander or superior officer enters a room, and we're supposed to make an issue of it when these things don't happen.

The discipline, respect, and attitude of seriousness (i.e. this isn't a condo board meeting, or the PTA) is important to recognizing the chain and the authority of superiors during other operational aspects.

We've allowed this attitude of "you're lucky I showed up at all" to permeate the very culture of the organization, and then we wonder why we have issues with respect from other services, big brother blue, etc.

If its not being done, it should be corrected, positively, professionally and immediately.

So, how did we allow this attitude togrow and why arent we doing something about it? Are we just concerned about "doing the mission" and less concerned about enforcing the standards.

Its not about trying to "play" military. Its about the standard. We all go through Level I and they talk about saluting and customs. I mean if you arent into it, this may not be the right organization for you. Its not a bad thing. It just is what it is. I think we need to enforce the standard.
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capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2009, 11:49:45 PM »

In my original post, I mentioned a difference in the "militaryism" between the Army and the Air Force.  I believe I recently saw an article in the Air Force Times addressing this exact issue and discussing the lack of "militaryism" in today's Air Force.  There is much more familiarization between officers and Airmen in today's service and a lack of traditional customs and courtesies, specifically mentioning personnel being on first name basis, not wearing of hats, disregarding saluting, etc.  There is a blurring of the line between officers and enlisted.  There are few officer clubs noe, mostly "consolidated" clubs.  A little tough drinking and maintaining proper protocol at the same bar.  Enlisted technicians are better educated ever before and some of their jobs are as demanding as their commissioned brothers.  It's not just us, but we are a reflection of Big Blue.
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Rotorhead
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2009, 11:57:35 PM »

The traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies for members of the Civil Air Patrol apply to all of us and reflect our pride and professionalism as members of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.

True. But you're contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said:

We are not military.  So get over it.

Those who insist on forcing military protocol on a non-military organization, on members who don't care to be military when they are not, are creating F Troop.

So which is it?
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Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2009, 11:59:55 PM »

Saluting is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform.
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Chicago_Pilot
Recruit

Posts: 43

« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2009, 12:03:44 AM »

It could very well be the unfamiliarity and awkwardness that people have with military customs and courtesies.  Even once commonly held traditions and protocols like calling everyone "Sir" or "Ma'am" until you were on a first name basis with them have gone to the wayside.

We have a very informal society today and bringing formality into it makes many people uncomfortable, especially if they weren't raised or haven't been exposed to it before.

I agree with this.  As a new Senior Member with no prior military experience, it feels very strange to salute.  For people like me, it really helps when other members set a good example.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 12:08:06 AM by Chicago_Pilot » Logged
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,338

« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2009, 12:18:31 AM »

Now, is the golf shirt the cause of the problem? Or is it simply that our membership is changing and some people who rather stick to their idealization want to blame it on a shirt?

No, if you consider the general lack of military customs and courtsies a problem in CAP, then the golf shirt is not the cause, but more of an impediment.  What I was saying was that so long as the golf shirt is around, its going to be very difficult to expect members to follow military C&C when they are in totally civilian clothes, especially when two members who do not know each other meet.

Quote
You seem to have a huge difference between what you think CAP should be, and what it actually is.
Well, CAP members are required by regulation to follow military C&C, so I think expecting that this be the case isn't unreasonable of me.  Perhaps CAP should drop those regulations so that the culture matches the regulations, but until they do its not me that is the problem, it is the people not doing what they're supposed to.

The funny thing is, we agree on that. Senior members should follow C&C.

However, it's not a matter of what a member wears, it's what their taught and how their cultivated through our culture.

I wear a golf shirt as a uniform shirt at my job occasionally, and you can't tell me I don't carry myself with as much professionalism and skill as if I'm in a button down shirt, or a tee shirt for that matter.

What happens when you great an officer in civilian clothes? Or a civilian? Or a congressmen? It doesn't effect the courtsey you show towards them.
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: The CAP Culture
 


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