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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Payment Required for Initial Form 5?
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Author Topic: Payment Required for Initial Form 5?  (Read 8152 times)
Turk
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Posts: 83

« on: January 30, 2009, 02:21:53 AM »

We have a member who is expressing some indignation over having to pay for her initial Form 5.  :o

Do members in fact have to pay for their initial Form 5? Where izzit in the regs - I can't find any reference to that. ???

Also, if she DOES have to pay for an initial Form 5 - must she do so in every aircraft category? We have 172s and 182s in my Wing. ???

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"To fly is everything."  Otto Lilienthal
Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 02:24:32 AM »

Yes, and yes.

Initials are on the member's dime, recurrency is on the corporation, within the program's guidelines.
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sparks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 270

« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 03:01:23 AM »

Adding another note to Eclipse's correct reply, future CAPF5's might be paid for depending on the amount of funding the wing has available. For many years I paid for every check ride I took because of funding limitations. It was considered normal. If this person is balking at paying for a check ride does that mean they won't fly a CAP aircraft unless the wing/cooperate is paying for it?
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FW
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Posts: 2,189

« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 03:02:31 AM »

A CAP pilot can not be reimbursed for a CAPF 5 flight unless the pilot is mission qualified (either a TMP or MP)  That's the rule as far as reimbursement from national is concerned  (it's considered an "A" mission).  However, if a unit has the funds, the unit can pay for the evaluation.  This goes for initial ride and subsequent annual rides.  Of course, because of budget limitations, a mission pilot should only expect 1 "free" form 5 ride per year.  (you can also get a paid ride if you're a cadet O'flight  pilot)
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es_g0d
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Posts: 301

CAP ES Resources Website
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 03:10:55 AM »

Members who balk at "paying" to fly corporate aircraft need to take a second look at why they want to fly for CAP in the first place.  If you're not willing to put your wallet where your mouth is, we can find other opportunities for you that won't "cost extra."  I'm always amazed at the expectation of "free" flying, and members that will show up at funded activities and nothing else.  If you can't afford to pay for your yearly evaluation, how can I expect you to also pay for your own proficiency flying?  Quite simply if there is NO expectation of "free" flying then that's probably where you need to be.  You're getting a "free" instructor on that flight; and that time is costly elsewhere!  When necessary, I've paid for my own form 5s -- and not just the initial.  On one occasion I was lucky enough to get a recurrent evaluation paid at a wing activity.  Because I had gone non-current following a PCS move, there was some speculation as to whether or not it would be paid.  Several members were aghast, "you know you are going to have to pay for that ride, right?"  My attitude was, "maybe so!  I just feel lucky that I got to fly today."

Just feeling lucky that you get to fly ... what ever happened to THAT!?
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Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
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Turk
Member

Posts: 83

« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 03:50:21 AM »

Thank ye, gents, for the speedy and expert advice.

Does anyone know where in the regs all this is, cuz [darn] me if I can find it. She'll ask, too.  ::)
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"To fly is everything."  Otto Lilienthal
wingnut55
Seasoned Member

Posts: 355

« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 04:00:58 AM »

I agree with ES_God

Kind of cheep to expect CAP is going to pay for your form 5 Flight time. Our aircraft time is cheap, about $50 dollars before fuel costs. Looking at the budget for 2009 CAP/USAF is going to pay less. Not to mention, no more ELT false hits (well far, far fewer)

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DG
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 06:36:15 AM »

Thank you Fred W. and Scott L. for taking the time and interest to share your insights and understanding.
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Ricochet13
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Posts: 240

« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 06:29:05 PM »

I agree with ES_God
Kind of cheep to expect CAP is going to pay for your form 5 Flight time. Our aircraft time is cheap, about $50 dollars before fuel costs. Looking at the budget for 2009 CAP/USAF is going to pay less. Not to mention, no more ELT false hits (well far, far fewer)

I avoid the issue by using my own aircraft.  But I'm fortunate to still have my 172.  Worth every penny I pay though.  ;D
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 06:38:56 PM »

I agree with ES_God
Kind of cheep to expect CAP is going to pay for your form 5 Flight time. Our aircraft time is cheap, about $50 dollars before fuel costs. Looking at the budget for 2009 CAP/USAF is going to pay less. Not to mention, no more ELT false hits (well far, far fewer)

I avoid the issue by using my own aircraft.  But I'm fortunate to still have my 172.  Worth every penny I pay though.  ;D

You don't have to do the F5 in a CAP-typical airframe.  I have one member who will be doing his next one in a privately owned Yak.  YMMV wing-to-wing, of course.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 06:50:37 PM »

I agree with ES_God
Kind of cheep to expect CAP is going to pay for your form 5 Flight time. Our aircraft time is cheap, about $50 dollars before fuel costs. Looking at the budget for 2009 CAP/USAF is going to pay less. Not to mention, no more ELT false hits (well far, far fewer)

I avoid the issue by using my own aircraft.  But I'm fortunate to still have my 172.  Worth every penny I pay though.  ;D

You don't have to do the F5 in a CAP-typical airframe.  I have one member who will be doing his next one in a privately owned Yak.  YMMV wing-to-wing, of course.

I don't think that is right.

Quote from: 60-1
3-1. CAPF 5 Check Ride. A completed CAPF 5 denotes qualification to fly a particular model of CAP aircraft. It consists of ground and flight evaluations, and is valid for 12 calendar months from the date it is completed. CAPFs 5 may contain one or more endorsements for certain types of aircraft operation (instrument, cadet o-ride, instructor, check pilot or other). All pilots except CAP Solo pilots must complete a check ride. To be complete, the following must be accomplished as part of the CAPF 5 check ride:
a. Completion of an Aircraft Questionnaire for the model aircraft flown within 60 days prior to the flight check.
b. Pass the annual CAPF 5 online written examination (power or glider as applicable) within 60 days prior to the flight check.
c. Members must be current in accordance with FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the same category and class as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.
d. Evidence of qualifications (membership card, medical and pilot certificates, log book, questionnaire, and on line written exam results) must be presented to the check pilot at the time of the CAPF 5 flight check.
e. For airplanes only, the minimums are 1 hour flight time and 3 takeoffs and landings.

CAP does not have any YAKs......granted the ride does not have to be IN a CAP plane...but it must be the same type...ie. 182, 172, 206 or a G-8 (do we still have mauls?).

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
jayleswo
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 06:53:28 PM »

You don't have to do the F5 in a CAP-typical airframe.  I have one member who will be doing his next one in a privately owned Yak.  YMMV wing-to-wing, of course.

One problem: Experimental category aircraft, and this can often include ex-military aircraft not certificated in the US, cannot be used on any CAP Flight Activity. This is per CAPR 60-1 para 2-4a. Not sure what type of Yak this is, but your friend should be aware of this restriction.
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John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 06:54:58 PM »

CAP does not have any YAKs......granted the ride does not have to be IN a CAP plane...but it must be the same type...ie. 182, 172, 206 or a G-8 (do we still have mauls?).

Certainly outside my expertise, and the reg would seem to say NFW.  This would be a recurrent F5 for an experienced pilot.  My understanding was that it already cleared and they were just waiting for weather.  Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 06:55:46 PM »

You don't have to do the F5 in a CAP-typical airframe.  I have one member who will be doing his next one in a privately owned Yak.  YMMV wing-to-wing, of course.

One problem: Experimental category aircraft, and this can often include ex-military aircraft not certificated in the US, cannot be used on any CAP Flight Activity. This is per CAPR 60-1 para 2-4a. Not sure what type of Yak this is, but your friend should be aware of this restriction.


If he's not, one would assume the Checkpilot would be.
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jayleswo
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 07:11:56 PM »

If he's not, one would assume the Checkpilot would be.

Seriously, not every checkpilot is aware of the regs as they should be.
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John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP
IC Coordinator, HQ CAWG
SAR/DR MP, Master Observer
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DG
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Posts: 502

« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2009, 03:00:37 AM »

Quote from: 60-1
3-1. CAPF 5 Check Ride. A completed CAPF 5 denotes qualification to fly a particular model of CAP aircraft. It consists of ground and flight evaluations, and is valid for 12 calendar months from the date it is completed. CAPFs 5 may contain one or more endorsements for certain types of aircraft operation (instrument, cadet o-ride, instructor, check pilot or other). All pilots except CAP Solo pilots must complete a check ride. To be complete, the following must be accomplished as part of the CAPF 5 check ride:
a. Completion of an Aircraft Questionnaire for the model aircraft flown within 60 days prior to the flight check.
b. Pass the annual CAPF 5 online written examination (power or glider as applicable) within 60 days prior to the flight check.
c. Members must be current in accordance with FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the same category and class as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.
d. Evidence of qualifications (membership card, medical and pilot certificates, log book, questionnaire, and on line written exam results) must be presented to the check pilot at the time of the CAPF 5 flight check.
e. For airplanes only, the minimums are 1 hour flight time and 3 takeoffs and landings.

Lordmonar posted "CAP does not have any YAKs......granted the ride does not have to be IN a CAP plane...but it must be the same type...ie. 182, 172, 206 or a G-8 (do we still have mauls?)."
[/quote]




Lordmonar, you may want to reconsider your position.  CAP Aircraft can be member owned/furnished and does not have to be CAP Corporate.  But jayleswo is right, in the case of a YAK, it is a no go if the YAK is flying as an experimental.

And yes, the MT-7-235 Maule is alive and well in CAP.  It is doing great work in glider ops.  What are you using for your glider ops?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 03:14:08 AM by DG » Report to moderator   Logged
PHall
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2009, 03:24:53 AM »

[And yes, the MT-7-235 Maule is alive and well in CAP.  It is doing great work in glider ops.  What are you using for your glider ops?


In CAWG we're using a C-182 since they sold our two Maules. One is in Mexico and the other is in France.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 03:48:24 AM »

I've been known to slam the pilots in CAP every now and again, but overall the dedicated ones probably spend more money on maintaining their CAP and flying skills than the rest of us do on our CAP skills.  That being said, I think having them pay for their first one wouldn't be out of line.     
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SJFedor
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Posts: 1,689

« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 09:02:48 AM »

To add to the pile....

yes.

To get a funded (AF funds) checkride, you need to be a current SAR/DR, TMP, or Cadet Orientation Pilot. One cannot be a current anything without an initial form 5.

And like it's been said, if your member can't fork out the little bit of change to get qual'ed, especially considering the opportunity of "free" flying this member will be elligible for, then you probably need to be concerned about more then just whether or not you can get their initial funded.

As my high school football coach said, "you gotta give a little to get a little"
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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DG
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Posts: 502

« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 11:07:20 AM »


To get a funded (AF funds) checkride, you need to be a current SAR/DR, TMP, or Cadet Orientation Pilot. One cannot be a current anything without an initial form 5.

And like it's been said, if your member can't fork out the little bit of change to get qual'ed, especially considering the opportunity of "free" flying this member will be elligible for, then you probably need to be concerned about more then just whether or not you can get their initial funded.

Well said.
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