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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Need MP Renewal Advice - Form 5/91 ..
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Author Topic: Need MP Renewal Advice - Form 5/91 ..  (Read 2180 times)
a2capt
300,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,095
Unit: pǝʇɹǝʌuı

« on: December 22, 2008, 04:49:01 PM »

Okay,

Here's the scoop. (Probably should have put this under the ES ratings.. after I pushed the submit..)

My "grace period" window runs out this month. I know..  Employment/money/etc - just hasn't been in sync the last couple years.

My entry in eServices says:
MP - SAR/DR Mission Pilot --- EXPIRED:TASK ELAPSED --- 31 Dec 2006

Ideally, right now, if I could renew by taking a Form 5 then 91 in my C172, and I'll do a Form 5 and 91 again in a C182 later, it's home field advantage, if you will..

Those of you who are seasoned at this, is there any action I can take to prolong that expiration so that I don't have to do it all over again from mission scanner/pilot as opposed to just being able to do a Form 5 and 91 before the end of the month?

Scheduling, aircraft availability and check pilot qualification (one that says they can give flight checks in a C172 or not, as an example) has been royally challenging.

Hence the comment about CAWG having down to about 100 MP's vs. 300.. it's gotten kinda a PITA to deal with. I can see that. I'm willing to do it now, but if it all falls and I have to do that with SAREXs' and politics again..

I'm really primarily interested in doing o-Flights as that benefits us locally, as it seems CAP is doing it's best to shove member owned aircraft to the side anyway, for an organization that was founded on member owned assets, thats pretty ironic..
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Short Field
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,003

« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 12:00:16 AM »

You need a Fm 5 each year.  You have to have taken it at least once in each aircraft type you fly.  Once you have the inital in a specific type of aircraft, you can still stay Fm 5 current by doing your check ride in a higher rated aircraft.  Initial Fm 5s would be required in a C-172, C-182, and a C-206.  However, your annual Fm 5 in a C-206 would keep you Fm 5 current in the C-172 and C-182.  I think the NAV II/IIIs  are required annually as well.

You need a Fm 91 checkride every two years.  It is not aircraft specifc so if you did it in a C-172, it would cover you for all other aircraft. 

You need to check CAPR 60-1 to make sure as there are some new changes out I am not that familiar with.
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SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 12:20:22 AM »

You can do a couple sorties as a scanner/observer pretty quick also without all that other hassle. At least then you're just talking about starting over the 5/91 part of the process.
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dbaran
Member

Posts: 82
Unit: PCR-CA-110

« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 02:42:09 AM »

I would encourage you to get it done before the end of the year; I have seen a MP get trapped by this about 2 months ago, and he now has to go do the missions and get everything signed off again.

You MIGHT get some leeway if you renew in January, but I would not count on it - I've never seen such "work-to-rule" outside of a labor action :)
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rgr84
Recruit

Posts: 26

« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 06:26:54 AM »

You really need to discuss this with your Wing Operations/Stan Eval Officers.  60-1 requires that you be Form 5 current in the plane you are using for your Form 91. 

If you are expired, local policy may come into play which could determine if any additional training is required prior to challenging a Form 5/91.  The Form 5 must be done in the highest CAP Group of aircraft you are qualified to fly.  The Form 91 can be done in any Group aircraft you are qualified in.
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a2capt
300,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,095
Unit: pǝʇɹǝʌuı

« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 02:42:07 PM »

Yes, I realize that, hence Form 5 first, preferably in Group 2, as that renews the Group 1 prior Form 5s, but if I do the Form 5 in a Group 1, then I only renew those.

It's cheaper if I fly my own aircraft, but it's getting where a C172 gets the nose raised at it, it seems. Though the price of corporate 182's is getting really attractive now that it's standardized.

I'd fly nearly anywhere in CA, central southward if I could arrange both 5/91 using the C172. It wouldn't take that long to get there. Finding someone near San Diego that won't shun a 172 is kinda challenging..

Combined with the WX being crummy every giant chunk of free time the last 45 days or so..

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caprr275
Forum Regular

Posts: 130

« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »

just a FYI your going to loose your CUL on 1 Jan 09.  You have to do ICS 700, ICS 800 and ICS 300 which is like a 4 day class
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N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 03:11:54 PM »

I see your qualifications expired at the end of 2006. Have you participated in any missions since then? Are you confident that your aircrew skills are in practice, so to speak? Like, could you take your Form 5 & 91 tonight, and be confident enough to take up a MO(T) and a MS(T) tomorrow and successfully execute any air sortie?

There's nothing wrong with having to go back and repeat some training after a break in participation. I had to do it once, and am glad I wasn't just pushed through as requalified, when I really wasn't.

just a FYI your going to loose your CUL on 1 Jan 09.  You have to do ICS 700, ICS 800 and ICS 300 which is like a 4 day class

Actually, his CUL qualification will simply be suspended until he completes IC 700/800, and ICS 300. Once he completes those it will go back to being active.
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 695

« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 04:46:47 AM »

The Form 5 must be done in the highest CAP Group of aircraft you are qualified to fly. 

Reg cite, please.
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"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2008, 02:17:15 PM »

The Form 5 must be done in the highest CAP Group of aircraft you are qualified to fly. 

Reg cite, please.

That's a semi-error. It should be done in a higher group, as the higher group will renew the lower group (Group 2 requal will renew all other Group 2 and Group 1 aircraft the member is already initial qualified in)
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 695

« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 07:47:16 PM »

Correct.  But if he can only afford to do his annual Form 5 in his member-owned C-172, he's certainly free to -- he just won't remain qualified in anything outside that group.
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"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 09:14:27 PM »

Yup. Plus, it's rather difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to do a Form 91 in a member owned aircraft, unless they've got very similar toys on board to our own.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
genejackson
Member

Posts: 85

« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2009, 01:34:02 AM »

Unless the member owned aircraft has either the L-tronic DF unit or a Becker DF, there is no way to legally pass them on a Form 91 checkride.   CAPF-91 section IV (c) requires the use of the DF.   As a Mission Pilot Checkpilot Examiner, you will not pass my checkride unless you can successfully perform the Electronic/DF search.  And to say you can just "V" that area and verbally pass them doesn't pass the sniff test either.   If it did, you could just "V" the pilot for the whole thing then and not even have to start an engine.

Make it a real checkride in a real CAP bird.  Could be somebody you know and love waiting in a wreck for the red/white/blue bird to fly overhead and circle the ELT signal.
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Gene Jackson
COL (R) US Army
Danville VA
es_g0d
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

CAP ES Resources Website
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 09:22:03 PM »

It ought to be noted that to successfully complete an electronic search, a suitable signal must be available to be located.  That means you need to have a practice beacon operating for a Form 91!  Apparently this is earth-shattering news to some.

For form 91s, I would consider the individual if an L-Tronics or Becker DF is unavailable.  For instance, if an experienced mission pilot wished to renew his/her Form 91 in a member-owned aircraft and was able to successfully wing-null to a practice beacon, that is satisfactory.  This is a very special case, however, and not often seen in the real world.  Honestly, I'm more concerned about a pilot who has only used a Becker unit.  This satisfies the letter of the law with regard to the Form 91, but may leave a serious training shortfall if the only aircraft available has an L-Tronics LA-series DF.

In such a case I can only hope for a highly trained observer in the right seat.
Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net
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Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Need MP Renewal Advice - Form 5/91 ..
 


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