Auto Insurance

[wingnut55]

Is anyone aware of an insurance carrier that will cover CAP members in their personal Vehicles on CAP MISSIONs, ELTs etc.

please no lectures, I am aware of the regs.

Looking to establish a list of insurance companys that will add  CAP members or add rider.

Remember we are covered on an AFAM for liability, not for collision in our personally owned automobile.

[Al Sayre]

If it is your POV and you are driving it, unless there is a specific exemption in the policy or you are doing something illegal, your regular insurance should cover you.

[wingnut55]

Not true

I need confirmation, "should" is the problem!!

you must check with the insurance carrier. Each company has exclusions for example.

"Coverage of vehicle while working as an entity for the US Government is Excluded"

This was in my automobile policy with Esurance.

AAA tells me "maybe!" with a rider addition, but they may not, it . . .

[wingnut55]

Notice

AAA has just called me and said they will not cover your Vehicle for CAP


Result: IF YOU HAVE AAA car insurance you are not covered by AAA for collision or liability while on an AFAM.

so if use your car on an AFAM (ELT, going to and from a mission), you wreck your new car, hit a tree what ever, your stuck with the bill for repair of your car and or replacement.

[Eclipse]

"Coverage of vehicle while working as an entity for the US Government is Excluded"

You're not employed by CAP, therefore you are not "working" for them.

[Johnny Yuma]

It's for this one reason alone I NEVER sign in my POV at a mission.

Once you sign it in, your insurance is void until you're off the job and CAP, INC. won't cover you either.

[wingnut55]

Ok look you guys, can the "I don't think your an employee.  This is important, i need help to canvas Insurance companys who will cover you. CAP regs are clear, you are covered on AFAMs for liability. Here in CAWG we do 400 to 500 ELTs per year and 20 +  SARS not including SAREXs, CD, and  HLS stuff.

If you have an automobile accident performing an AFAM and you lie about it to your insurance company you are committing a felony (Insurance fraud). Once you commit the fraud you cannot go back and file with CAP/USAF.  So do you have a house, a job are you willing or able to pay for a 50,000 dollar car, and your car and the CAP passanger in the car with you and the 3 people in the other car?? But I am not asking for advice. And you are required to sign in your vehicle on a mission if you drove to the mission, if not your falsifying a CAP form and that is contrary to CAP regulations and an IC who is not doing his job. Did you walk 50 miles.

Answer the question; get it in writing email would be good.

email your insurance and ask them if they cover you for collision while working on an AFAM. forward that to me if you would please.

The goal here is work through this and we will find a company the will insure us, maybe for a fee. Or maybe we should just use a CAP van for ELT mission. Or Ground team activity.

^^^Remember the Key thing is  we are covered for liability

[Johnny Yuma]

Ok look you guys, can the "I don't think your an employee.  This is important, i need help to canvas Insurance companys who will cover you. CAP regs are clear, you are covered on AFAMs for liability. Here in CAWG we do 400 to 500 ELTs per year and 20 +  SARS not including SAREXs, CD, and  HLS stuff.

If you have an automobile accident performing an AFAM and you lie about it to your insurance company you are committing a felony (Insurance fraud). Once you commit the fraud you cannot go back and file with CAP/USAF.  So do you have a house, a job are you willing or able to pay for a 50,000 dollar car, and your car and the CAP passanger in the car with you and the 3 people in the other car?? But I am not asking for advice. And you are required to sign in your vehicle on a mission if you drove to the mission, if not your falsifying a CAP form and that is contrary to CAP regulations and an IC who is not doing his job. Did you walk 50 miles.

Answer the question; get it in writing email would be good.

email your insurance and ask them if they cover you for collision while working on an AFAM. forward that to me if you would please.

The goal here is work through this and we will find a company the will insure us, maybe for a fee. Or maybe we should just use a CAP van for ELT mission. Or Ground team activity.

^^^Remember the Key thing is  we are covered for liability

Liability, we _might_ be covered. However neither CAP, Inc. nor the USAF is going to repair your vehicle.

I thought we were covered for worker's comp for lost wages, but one of our members here in KSWg found out the hard way it ain't so.

[Eclipse]

I thought we were covered for worker's comp for lost wages, but one of our members here in KSWg found out the hard way it ain't so.

FECA covers members for lost wages due to injury during an AFAM (AFAM only is the key here).  Last I checked, assuming you work the process, the wage level is equal to a GS-9.

Wingnut - I am not a CAP employee, ever, regardless of what duty I am performing, therefore my service to CAP is no different than volunteering for the local PTA (in regards to auto coverage), and I am comfortable that my carrier will cover me.

If you're not, find one you're comfortable with or don't use your POV for a mission.

And you are required to sign in your vehicle on a mission if you drove to the mission, if not your falsifying a CAP form and that is contrary to CAP regulations and an IC who is not doing his job. Did you walk 50 miles.

No, you're not.

Transport to and from a CAP mission is the responsibility of members, and that is clearly spelled out in the regs.  If I am not submitting a 108 for reimbursement, CAP couldn't care less how I got there, how I'm getting home, or where my vehicle is during the mission.

[FW]

For POV's, as POA's (member owned aircraft), damage to vehicle is not covered by CAP/AF.  Some insurance carriers have riders to include CAP missions for aircraft however, I've not seen any for cars or trucks.  Best bet would be to call USAA or GEICO.  These are two companies that tend to look favorably on govt. mission riders.

[Eclipse]

AFLAC is one to stay away from if you're paranoid about coverage, their exceptions pages read like a guide to "buzz kill".

A lot of members get a general liability policy to help them sleep better.  I don't think they are necessary, but when I needed to get one for my consulting business I asked about CAP coverage and it was included, so whatever.

[Johnny Yuma]

FECA covers members for lost wages due to injury during an AFAM (AFAM only is the key here).  Last I checked, assuming you work the process, the wage level is equal to a a GS-9.

When our guy here in KSWG broke his leg on an ELT mission, they paid (kind of) for the medical but he was flatly told they wouldn't pay lost wages.

When he was out of work for a month having the hardware removed last Summer they didn't pay, either.

BTW they're still getting hounded by bill collectors because the USAF hasn't paid all the medical bills yet.

If it weren't for the RRB Sickness Benefit and Supplementary disability insurance I've got at work I'd have turned in my 101 card by now.

[Johnny Yuma]

For POV's, as POA's (member owned aircraft), damage to vehicle is not covered by CAP/AF.  Some insurance carriers have riders to include CAP missions for aircraft however, I've not seen any for cars or trucks.  Best bet would be to call USAA or GEICO.  These are two companies that tend to look favorably on govt. mission riders.

I've got GEICO. CAP is oblivious to them.

[Eclipse]

FECA covers members for lost wages due to injury during an AFAM (AFAM only is the key here).  Last I checked, assuming you work the process, the wage level is equal to a a GS-9.

When our guy here in KSWG broke his leg on an ELT mission, they paid (kind of) for the medical but he was flatly told they wouldn't pay lost wages.

When he was out of work for a month having the hardware removed last Summer they didn't pay, either.

BTW they're still getting hounded by bill collectors because the USAF hasn't paid all the medical bills yet.

There's no way to really go anywhere with that without knowing the full details of the situation and why he didn't receive FECA benefits.

The reasons could be anything from an improper application, some uniform/procedural/mission paperwork issue, to "other/unknown", and I'm not implying its his fault, just we don't know the whole story.  At the end of the day its a gov'mint bureaucracy, and we're on the peripheral of it.  There's plenty of people in compensated military services that have to fight much harder than one would think reasonable to get benefits they are due, including having to sue.

[wuzafuzz]

A few thoughts come to mind on this issue:

READ YOUR POLICY.  Insurance laws and contracts vary by state.  If Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius) from ACME Insurance says they don't exclude your CAP activities in CO, remember the same company may have different policy provisions in CA.

My Colorado auto policy excludes liability coverage if I am using my vehicle as an EMPLOYEE of the United States or any of it's agencies.  Since the policy doesn't include language defining EMPLOYEE the commonly accepted definition should apply.  From www.dictionary.com:  a person working for another person or a business firm for pay.  I'm no lawyer, but I feel I'm safe on that count since I am not paid.

My auto policy also excludes liability coverage if any provisions of the Federal Tort Claims Act apply.  Almost any insurance policy will coordinate benefits with other applicable coverage.  The idea is to compensate your loss, not to turn a profit.  How that will turn out in practice is a great question.

My comprehensive coverage does not exclude CAP or similar activities.  

I also purchased a Personal Liability Umbrella Policy.  With that I'm covered for just about any liability except that caused intentional, criminal acts, committed by me.  I'm covered up to one million dollars, PLUS what my homeowners or auto policy (depending on circumstances) covers for liability.

Liability exposure may be impacted by Good Samaritan Laws.  Become familiar with those laws if if they exist where you live.

Final thought:  Are you on the hook if you damage or lose CAP property, like a radio you are issued?  Does a Personal Liability Policy cover that?  I haven't asked my agent yet.

No, I am NOT an insurance agent or a lawyer.  I do work for an insurance company, but only as an IT guy.  I'll share the company name over PM if asked.