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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2006, 02:30:33 AM »

Two questions.  One, what is a CADEX?  Two, how are you a C/A1C and a flight sergeant?  I can understand that there might not be any higher cadets to fill that position, but it just seems a little strange to me.

1. Cadet Exercise probably... Think SAREX, but for the cadidiots.

2.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-2. b. The cadet commander of the squadron is appointed by the squadron commander and has cadet officers on his
or her staff and one first sergeant. Any cadet may fill a cadet staff position without regard to the cadetís grade.
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer
requirements in Phases III and IV. Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such
time as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.

Emphasis added.

Don't agree with it personally because it devalues grade, but it is authorized.
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Mike Johnston
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2006, 03:06:22 AM »

OK...I've been in CAP for over a year. I attended my first meeting in December of 2005, and officially became a member in February. Our cadets are as follows:

Lt. Col. Plume (only there once a month because he's in college and a ROTC cadet)

2dLt. Duford (cadet commander)

CMSgt Visintainer (first sergeant)

SSgt Odom (shows up to meetings fifteen minutes before closing due to classes)

Me: A1C Allen (flight sergeant and color guard commander... on the bright side I'm a cadet in our local JROTC program)

Then the Amn's and Basics

We have a relatively small squadron of 16 cadets, and 12 senior members.  How I got Flight Sergeant is beyond me....from what I hear its due to dedication and maturity. Yeah...
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2006, 03:34:05 AM »

16 caders isn't too small, sadly, that's average... even though it's only technically one flight.


Timmerman, we have about 30 Cadets.  About 15 are active, which is kinda sad in reality.  We have one flight, plus about 3 support staff.  However, the one flight, fluctuates.



P.S. Please give my regards to C/Capt Hickey, C/1Lt Martinelli, First Sergeant Hasley and of course... LtCol Gibbons  :)
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2006, 04:26:03 AM »

Me: A1C Allen (flight sergeant and color guard commander... on the bright side I'm a cadet in our local JROTC program)

Your signature needs your attention then.  ;)
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Mike Johnston
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2006, 10:25:57 PM »

Kopp....why does that name sound familiar? I know...Killman! Lol...I'm the short "mexican" lookin' chick that she used to drag around every where. Anyways, I feel that 16 cadets is small...I dunno...maybe its because only about 5 us are active. You have the cadets that come to like maybe every other meeting or once a month, but what's the point?

Yeah, I know my signature needs to be changed...I'll get to it sooner or later.
Logged
C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2006, 10:44:37 PM »

<cringes> yes... better Annette than Tim I suppose... but then again, being friend with Dom and Natalie would be better yet  :P

Yes, in prospect 16, although average, is small...  I would have to concur, especially looking at membership levels from 10-15 years ago.

As a wise 1/2 Colonel once said:  You have to have critical mass to start to gain members.

In order to gain C.M. you have to have an active program.  I know for a fact that your group is active, supportive, and it full of spunk.  If not, that would be a first for them.  I know that Plume is gone at school, but recruit.

Just be weary about upsetting LtC Gibbons; he's a nice person to have on your side, semi-use him to the extent of finding people, and attaining contacts... it's all networking!

 -Matt
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
skandalintegra
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2006, 06:48:37 AM »

If he has been a basic for that past few months, it looks like he doesn't really want to progress through the cadet program.  I passed my Curry the day I "officially" joined.  I was a basic for a day.
Same here
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C/1st Lt Daniel Jackson
California Wing
williamcabot
Recruit

Posts: 12

« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2006, 12:04:57 AM »

My squadron has about 35-40 cadets in it and 16-20 are active.

I always thought that my squadron was a smaller one, untill now I guess I thought wrong.
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C/SMSgt Douglas S. Saavedra
Alpha Flight Commander
San Diego Cadet Squadron 144
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary (CAP)
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2006, 03:54:05 PM »

My squadron has about 35-40 cadets in it and 16-20 are active.

I always thought that my squadron was a smaller one, untill now I guess I thought wrong.

That happens quite a bit, believe it or not.  Typically youth take on a great deal of activities.  CAP, they take on and place on a back-burner to cocurriculars and sports, so, we have the numbers, but we don't.  I think Nat'l may make a good stance if they were to have, say, Cadet Patron members.

The trick is to keep tabs on those that aren't active.  If you do, and do it right, they'll remember CAP and they'll come back given the chance...
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 605

« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2006, 05:16:06 PM »

2.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-2. b. The cadet commander of the squadron is appointed by the squadron commander and has cadet officers on his
or her staff and one first sergeant. Any cadet may fill a cadet staff position without regard to the cadetís grade.
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer
requirements in Phases III and IV. Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such
time as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.

Emphasis added.


Don't agree with it personally because it devalues grade, but it is authorized.
[/quote]


Sir, my experience has been that anyone (even a cadet) can be led up through the grades with adequate leadership, but having someone who is willing to step up and assume responsibility, even if they aren't quite ready for it, is priceless. 

The perception that I have always battled against is that you can't have someone in a position who isn't ready for it or qualified for it.   It's that viscious circle of needing experience to gain experience.   I've seen squadrons with C/A1C's as Cadet Commanders, because that's all they had and the cadets stepped up.   You honestly cannot expect cadets (or seniors) to become effective leaders if they are not given the tools, the support, or the chance.

It's my personal belief that the job of the Cadet Commander and Cadet Staff is to eventually work themselves out of a job.  There is nothing wrong with having a C/Lt COL be a Cadet Staff Advisor while a C/LT or C/Capt takes the helm.  I don't see that the Senior Member side is any different.  It all comes down to using the resources you have, not lamenting on the resources you wish you had.

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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,339

« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2006, 05:52:51 PM »

The problem occurs when everyone overlooks the next sentence:
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer requirements in Phases III and IV.

The tendency is that since C/2d Lt Jones served as FltCC as a C/SSgt, they do not need to repeat it as an officer. That is in direct contridiction to the reg.
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2006, 06:10:32 PM »

Sir, my experience has been that anyone (even a cadet) can be led up through the grades with adequate leadership, but having someone who is willing to step up and assume responsibility, even if they aren't quite ready for it, is priceless. 

The perception that I have always battled against is that you can't have someone in a position who isn't ready for it or qualified for it.   It's that viscious circle of needing experience to gain experience.   I've seen squadrons with C/A1C's as Cadet Commanders, because that's all they had and the cadets stepped up.   You honestly cannot expect cadets (or seniors) to become effective leaders if they are not given the tools, the support, or the chance.

It's my personal belief that the job of the Cadet Commander and Cadet Staff is to eventually work themselves out of a job.  There is nothing wrong with having a C/Lt COL be a Cadet Staff Advisor while a C/LT or C/Capt takes the helm.  I don't see that the Senior Member side is any different.  It all comes down to using the resources you have, not lamenting on the resources you wish you had.

What you are not seeing is the units that will promote anyone because the grade doesn't mean anything... If C/AB Snuffy can serve in any position without regard for his grade, why should we care about anything other than if he passes his tests when it comes time to promote him.  For some cadets this translates as:  Why should I continue to test/promote if I can be the Cadet Commander now?

There is a reason for L2K: AB is laid out the way it is... Cadets should grow into positions through progression in the program.  Instead we see... I have 15 airmen... I need a C/CC, a C/CD, a C/CCE, a C/CCF a Flight Commander, a Flight Sergeant.

From TLC: Leadership Expectations in the CIVIL AIR PATROL CADET PROGRAM
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Mike Johnston
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2006, 05:31:39 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.
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GEORGE LURYE
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2006, 06:43:06 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy.

I have been a CAP cadet, I know what cadets are like... I meant it as good natured ribbing, nothing more. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.

The senior program and it's professional appointments does not reflect that of the cadet program, where you start at the bottom and learn as you go.  I'm just saying that you shouldn't have a Cadet Commander who isn't a phase IV cadet, because you don't learn that level of leadership until then.  A cadets abilities should match his/her grade... because the grade reflects the level of training in the program.  Go look at the Leadership Expectations chart which is now included in CAPR 52-16.
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Mike Johnston
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 605

« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2006, 07:25:28 PM »

I'm curious,  how do you structure the cadets' heiarchy (leadership positions) if you do not have a Phase IV cadet among them?

Cadets who typically make Phase IV are between 16 and 20 years old and begin to have their free time stretched a bit thin.   Just a guesstimate here, but only about 20% of cadets ever make it to Cadet Captain (Phase III is the "Command Phase"), especially in light of our current retention issues. You may decide to appoint a cadet as "Acting Cadet Commander", or just appoint a cadet as "Flight Leader", but that amounts to the same thing. 

I'm just wondering how you work around it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 07:44:57 PM by Psicorp » Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2006, 07:43:45 PM »

You structure it around what you've got to work with.
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Mike Johnston
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,136
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2006, 09:18:01 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.

George,

While I can appreciate that you have a particular point of view on this issue, Mike is not alone in his views and it would be wrong to single him out.  Though my views on the issue are not Mike's, one of the tenants of this discussion board is the ability to express your point of view without being personally criticized.  I know for a fact of others who holds Mike's view point on the issue.  There are indeed multiple camps on the issue of cadet grade and duty assignments.

Also, knowing Mike personally, I would have to say that your statement: "Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication." is out of line and way out of whack.

Regarding the issue you're discussing: Of course every commander needs to weigh every portion of an individual's qualifications for a duty assignment.  As every leader varies, some put heavier weight on different qualifications; some consider more important the progression in the program, others experience, and still others prefer to see other aspects of leadership ability.   I don't think anybody is advocating assigning an incapable C/Maj to the position of Cadet Commander, nor a brand-new C/AB -- it's all middle ground.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2006, 09:15:44 PM »

Ok, no matter how everyone feels about the issue, CAP and its 46 years of experience speak to us through regulations.  There's a reason why they specifically state that a cadet of any grade may hold any position within a unit.  Feelings are irrelevant.  We work within a set frame for a reason.  Trust it and use it (doesn't mean you can't stretch it.)  Don't try to reinvent the wheel.  Use your time to figure out how to make the wheel better! You feel that putting a cadet who's more capable, but lower in grade is wrong?  Fine... promote the cadet to the grade where you're comfortable (although grade doesn't mean anything in CAP, does it?) Yes I know to be a C/Cpt you have to have 22 months time in CAP, but thoretically you could be 14 years old and quite immature.  On the other hand,  you could have an 18 year old C/SSgt who joined not too long ago who is mature, able, and willing to step up to the challenge of leadership.  I repeat, it would be wrong of you to place the uncapable cadet into the position (no matter what grade) because you would be letting down every cadet who would serve under him/her and that is a failure on your part, as a leader.

As a former member of the military I understand that it's hard to separate grade from job description since the two are related in that world, but they aren't in CAP.  It's just one of the things that makes use CAP and not the Air Force.
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GEORGE LURYE
TopFlight
Recruit

Posts: 9

« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2006, 01:08:56 PM »

May I weigh-in here and agree with George on this matter? We senior members all know that, in the "real world", a newly-minted manager, straight out of college with absolutely NO work experience, waving his/her master's degree like a battle flag is hired as our new boss. Aarrgh!!! We "lowly" associate degreed, working-class team members are suddenly being led by, on paper only, someone whom is qualified to lead us to success. Well, I've had to kick some of these functional idiots to the curb, as they couldn't lead us out of a paper bag.
In CAP, I've witnessed young prodigies test their way to Captain, while maintaining their lack of maturity and leadership skills. As one of our CAP texts states, followers can be taught to lead. I often wonder, how did young Johnny or Jane attain this grade without absorbing the leadership doctrine taught in all of those achievement texts? I've been amazed by the natural leadership shown by mere cadet senior airmen. I think it harkens back to their innate ability to lead. In some of these cadets' brief lives, they have dealt with character-shaping situations, which have imprinted them with a maturity, integrity, and ability to lead, far beyond those whom have book-knowledge.
I'm very proud that our squadron commander believes that the cadet whom demonstrates the ability to lead in a mature and responsible manner, regardless of grade, is the cadet whom has earned the right to lead the cadets. Just my lowly opinion.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 02:28:29 PM by Prd2bCap » Logged
Maureen Robinson
Southeast Region
Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2006, 03:02:15 PM »

May I weigh-in here and agree with George on this matter? We senior members all know that, in the "real world", a newly-minted manager, straight out of college with absolutely NO work experience, waving his/her master's degree like a battle flag is hired as our new boss. Aarrgh!!! We "lowly" associate degreed, working-class team members are suddenly being led by, on paper only, someone whom is qualified to lead us to success. Well, I've had to kick some of these functional idiots to the curb, as they couldn't lead us out of a paper bag.
In CAP, I've witnessed young prodigies test their way to Captain, while maintaining their lack of maturity and leadership skills. As one of our CAP texts states, followers can be taught to lead. I often wonder, how did young Johnny or Jane attain this grade without absorbing the leadership doctrine taught in all of those achievement texts? I've been amazed by the natural leadership shown by mere cadet senior airmen. I think it harkens back to their innate ability to lead. In some of these cadets' brief lives, they have dealt with character-shaping situations, which have imprinted them with a maturity, integrity, and ability to lead, far beyond those whom have book-knowledge.
I'm very proud that our squadron commander believes that the cadet whom demonstrates the ability to lead in a mature and responsible manner, regardless of grade, is the cadet whom has earned the right to lead the cadets. Just my lowly opinion.

I would agree with you totally.  In my almost 6 years as a cadet, i have found that grade doesn't always mean a good leader.  I have seen C/SSgts who are better leaders than high ranking cadet officers.  I think the key ingredient in making a good cadet leader is time.  the cadet with more experience and more time in the program generally will be the better leader.  That is not always the case but it does seem to go that way more than not.  Although there are cases when a cadet walks in the door the first night and i am just waiting for them to promote and get some time in so that i can creditably use them on my staff.  Leadership is a natural ability also.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadets....
 


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