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Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« on: February 03, 2006, 03:57:13 PM »

OK, so there's a cadet in my squadron that I so happened to use to go to school with before I transfered schools. He is honestly the only cadet I have ever seen that can manage to make his own element when he is supposed to be in the second element. (We usually have between three and four elements depending on how many cadets show up.) It gets annoying to keep telling him to move to where he's supposed to be. Especially when he falls in repeatedly in the wrong spot...always trying to be an element leader. I've discussed this situation with him many times. I've even done one and one drill with him. Does anyone have any advice on how I can get it through his head where he's supposed to stand during formation? Anything will be greatly appreciated.

C/Amn Allen
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 05:47:58 PM »

The problem is the cadet not assuming his proper place in the formation?  Do you know how to properly size and square off the flight... And can you teach him this?
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Mike Johnston
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 05:52:42 PM »

Yes, I guess that's what I'm saying...I know how to square off the flight, but the problem is that I am continuously correcting him. He's been in for almost 3 months now, and since day one I have been correcting him. I don't know any other way to teach him how to fall in for formation. Another thing is I don't know how to tell him that when he does fall into the correct element that he's not an element leader...we've been through this numerous times. Its getting old. I just need a new angle to look at the problem with.
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2006, 06:13:00 PM »

Make him the Guide.  ;D

You can't just teach him to fall into the same spot every week since he isn't an Element Leader or the Guide... He's not going to be number 3 in the second element every week if the flight is being squared off and sized properly with varying attendance.

You just gotta beat it into him through repetition... Might mean that you have to actually place him there instead of just telling him.  This does not mean that you pick him up and put him where he should be... but do escort him to his proper position.

Eventually he'll get it.  This of course assumes that he in fact doesn't get it... If he is doing it deliberately... Than you need to take it up the chain to have his issue (with you) dealt with.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 12:46:16 AM by MIKE » Logged
Mike Johnston
footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 12:03:28 AM »

Just out of curiosity, how old is this cadet?  Age can be a big factor as to whether or not someone is mature enough to listen and do what they're told (the first time).  Also, what grade is he?

About a year ago, we had a cadet join who was somewhat on the "special" side.  He would just start a conversation in the middle of someone talking, didn't use C & C, could drill, put patches on wrong, etc.  About 2 months later he just didn't show up any more.  I don't know if it was the same thing over and over to try and teach him that made him not like it or if it was just he didn't want anything to do with CAP.

The reason I brought that up was this might be what your cadet will do in the future.  Constantly teaching him the same thing over and over hoping he will get it might "annoy" him and eventually lead him to quit.  Try putting him in another element or something and see if he does the same thing.  Just experiment with some things and see if he will get the idea that he needs to do what he is told.
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 12:44:50 PM »

This is true... There may be a legitimate reason for the cadets behavior... And you probably shouldn't attempt to address it on your own without seeking help from your senior leadership... Seniors may have knowledge of the issue, or they can talk to mom and dad and can find ways to help both of you find a solution to the problem that will work for both parties.

Whenever you have a persistent issue like this... You should send a report up the chain of command... This way your leaders are aware of the issue and can give feedback and other assistance.
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Mike Johnston
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 12:56:15 PM »

I agree. 

With no intention to question your interperatation or abilities, I notice that you are very new to the program as well. 

Someone who has been in longer may have some insight in to handling a situation like this.

Learning to deal with people who aren't "with your plan" can be the hardest thing about CAP, but also the most rewarding lesson.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 04:18:01 PM by Eclipse » Logged


shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 973

« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2006, 04:02:06 PM »

Ah...those wacky cadets!  Is there anything they can't do? :D
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2006, 04:25:43 PM »

Is there anything they can't do? :D

The name Captain Edward A. Murphy comes to mind.  ;D
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 04:56:19 PM »

Just out of curiosity, how old is this cadet?  Age can be a big factor as to whether or not someone is mature enough to listen and do what they're told (the first time).  Also, what grade is he?

He is 16 years old, and has been an AB for the past couple months now. From experience with him at school I know that he likes to test and see how much he can get away with. 

I've brought the situation up with my CC and he just keeps telling me to work on it. So, maybe I will talk to our DCOC and see what she has to say about it.

Thanks. ;D
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 06:06:09 PM »

If he has been a basic for that past few months, it looks like he doesn't really want to progress through the cadet program.  I passed my Curry the day I "officially" joined.  I was a basic for a day.
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 05:40:14 PM »

You had the cadet oath memorized, your uniform squared away and proper and the drill down on the day you joined to be promoted?  Please do share with us how you were able to have the foresight, wisdom, talent and skill that seemingly none of the rest of us cadets and senior members have.  :clap:
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GEORGE LURYE
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 05:51:53 PM »

The way I read it, he had been attending meetings long enough to learn the material.  Notice he wrote he passed it the day he "OFFICIALLY" joined, as in the day his paperwork cleared and he was on the record.  I know of many squadrons that issue uniforms before the cadet joins.  He may be no exception to that.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 06:00:36 PM »

Perhaps this would be a good way to weed out the unpromising cadets before they join...

 ???
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GEORGE LURYE
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 06:06:56 PM »

The way I read it, he had been attending meetings long enough to learn the material.  Notice he wrote he passed it the day he "OFFICIALLY" joined, as in the day his paperwork cleared and he was on the record.  I know of many squadrons that issue uniforms before the cadet joins.  He may be no exception to that.

Should not be wearing a CAP uniform unless you are a card carrying member.  IIRC it is a violation of federal law.  

Also... should not be credited with CPFT or Moral Leadership etc, completed before the join date as recorded by NHQ CAP.
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Mike Johnston
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 06:12:50 PM »

I'm not taking sides, just saying that this happens frequently nationwide in smaller and less reg happy squadrons.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,281

« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 06:13:59 PM »

My squadron issues cadets bdu's when the turn in their paperwork. They do not wear them until they appear on the National website. This provides them with the time to learn how to assemble the uniform and get the stuff to do it. So when their memberhsip goes through, they have a uniform properly assembled and ready to wear.
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footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2006, 07:49:48 PM »

I knew proper military uniform wear from both my great uncle (who was in the Air Force) and a 2 week long junior police academy camp I attended twice.  Plus it's not that hard to have a good uniform.  We also did moral leadership that same night after testing.  Drill I had done before I joined "officially" and at the police academy thing, too.  The one thing was I think we did PT the meeting before, so that wouldn't be official reg stuff.  I also bought my own uniform, the squadron didn't supply it.
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2006, 08:18:36 PM »

Update:

The cadet I was talking about is still having this little issue even after a week end long CADEX that we had. We spent an hour and a half each day going over drill. He's now a C/Amn, and the little rank he has over the basics and cadets who have permoted after him has gone to his head. He's only been an Amn for like a week...god this is getting annoying.

Respond:

My squadron doesn't issue uniforms until your paperwork goes through national. I had been an offical member for five months before I was allowed to test, and I study my butt off for all my tests. It wasn't because I wasn't ready it was because my DCOC thought that maybe there would be some new basics joining. Sadly there wasn't....not for a long time anyways. Basically, all squadrons do things differently.

(need for signature change...finally permoted!!! C/A1C)
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2006, 09:03:43 PM »

Two questions.  One, what is a CADEX?  Two, how are you a C/A1C and a flight sergeant?  I can understand that there might not be any higher cadets to fill that position, but it just seems a little strange to me.
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2006, 10:30:33 PM »

Two questions.  One, what is a CADEX?  Two, how are you a C/A1C and a flight sergeant?  I can understand that there might not be any higher cadets to fill that position, but it just seems a little strange to me.

1. Cadet Exercise probably... Think SAREX, but for the cadidiots.

2.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-2. b. The cadet commander of the squadron is appointed by the squadron commander and has cadet officers on his
or her staff and one first sergeant. Any cadet may fill a cadet staff position without regard to the cadetís grade.
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer
requirements in Phases III and IV. Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such
time as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.

Emphasis added.

Don't agree with it personally because it devalues grade, but it is authorized.
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Mike Johnston
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2006, 11:06:22 PM »

OK...I've been in CAP for over a year. I attended my first meeting in December of 2005, and officially became a member in February. Our cadets are as follows:

Lt. Col. Plume (only there once a month because he's in college and a ROTC cadet)

2dLt. Duford (cadet commander)

CMSgt Visintainer (first sergeant)

SSgt Odom (shows up to meetings fifteen minutes before closing due to classes)

Me: A1C Allen (flight sergeant and color guard commander... on the bright side I'm a cadet in our local JROTC program)

Then the Amn's and Basics

We have a relatively small squadron of 16 cadets, and 12 senior members.  How I got Flight Sergeant is beyond me....from what I hear its due to dedication and maturity. Yeah...
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2006, 11:34:05 PM »

16 caders isn't too small, sadly, that's average... even though it's only technically one flight.


Timmerman, we have about 30 Cadets.  About 15 are active, which is kinda sad in reality.  We have one flight, plus about 3 support staff.  However, the one flight, fluctuates.



P.S. Please give my regards to C/Capt Hickey, C/1Lt Martinelli, First Sergeant Hasley and of course... LtCol Gibbons  :)
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2006, 12:26:03 AM »

Me: A1C Allen (flight sergeant and color guard commander... on the bright side I'm a cadet in our local JROTC program)

Your signature needs your attention then.  ;)
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Mike Johnston
Stephanie Allen
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2006, 06:25:57 PM »

Kopp....why does that name sound familiar? I know...Killman! Lol...I'm the short "mexican" lookin' chick that she used to drag around every where. Anyways, I feel that 16 cadets is small...I dunno...maybe its because only about 5 us are active. You have the cadets that come to like maybe every other meeting or once a month, but what's the point?

Yeah, I know my signature needs to be changed...I'll get to it sooner or later.
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C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2006, 06:44:37 PM »

<cringes> yes... better Annette than Tim I suppose... but then again, being friend with Dom and Natalie would be better yet  :P

Yes, in prospect 16, although average, is small...  I would have to concur, especially looking at membership levels from 10-15 years ago.

As a wise 1/2 Colonel once said:  You have to have critical mass to start to gain members.

In order to gain C.M. you have to have an active program.  I know for a fact that your group is active, supportive, and it full of spunk.  If not, that would be a first for them.  I know that Plume is gone at school, but recruit.

Just be weary about upsetting LtC Gibbons; he's a nice person to have on your side, semi-use him to the extent of finding people, and attaining contacts... it's all networking!

 -Matt
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
skandalintegra
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2006, 02:48:37 AM »

If he has been a basic for that past few months, it looks like he doesn't really want to progress through the cadet program.  I passed my Curry the day I "officially" joined.  I was a basic for a day.
Same here
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C/1st Lt Daniel Jackson
California Wing
williamcabot
Recruit

Posts: 12

« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2006, 08:04:57 PM »

My squadron has about 35-40 cadets in it and 16-20 are active.

I always thought that my squadron was a smaller one, untill now I guess I thought wrong.
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C/SMSgt Douglas S. Saavedra
Alpha Flight Commander
San Diego Cadet Squadron 144
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary (CAP)
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2006, 11:54:05 AM »

My squadron has about 35-40 cadets in it and 16-20 are active.

I always thought that my squadron was a smaller one, untill now I guess I thought wrong.

That happens quite a bit, believe it or not.  Typically youth take on a great deal of activities.  CAP, they take on and place on a back-burner to cocurriculars and sports, so, we have the numbers, but we don't.  I think Nat'l may make a good stance if they were to have, say, Cadet Patron members.

The trick is to keep tabs on those that aren't active.  If you do, and do it right, they'll remember CAP and they'll come back given the chance...
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2006, 01:16:06 PM »

2.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-2. b. The cadet commander of the squadron is appointed by the squadron commander and has cadet officers on his
or her staff and one first sergeant. Any cadet may fill a cadet staff position without regard to the cadetís grade.
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer
requirements in Phases III and IV. Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such
time as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.

Emphasis added.


Don't agree with it personally because it devalues grade, but it is authorized.
[/quote]


Sir, my experience has been that anyone (even a cadet) can be led up through the grades with adequate leadership, but having someone who is willing to step up and assume responsibility, even if they aren't quite ready for it, is priceless. 

The perception that I have always battled against is that you can't have someone in a position who isn't ready for it or qualified for it.   It's that viscious circle of needing experience to gain experience.   I've seen squadrons with C/A1C's as Cadet Commanders, because that's all they had and the cadets stepped up.   You honestly cannot expect cadets (or seniors) to become effective leaders if they are not given the tools, the support, or the chance.

It's my personal belief that the job of the Cadet Commander and Cadet Staff is to eventually work themselves out of a job.  There is nothing wrong with having a C/Lt COL be a Cadet Staff Advisor while a C/LT or C/Capt takes the helm.  I don't see that the Senior Member side is any different.  It all comes down to using the resources you have, not lamenting on the resources you wish you had.

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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,281

« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2006, 01:52:51 PM »

The problem occurs when everyone overlooks the next sentence:
However, service as a Phase I or Phase II cadet in these staff positions will not be credited toward the staff officer requirements in Phases III and IV.

The tendency is that since C/2d Lt Jones served as FltCC as a C/SSgt, they do not need to repeat it as an officer. That is in direct contridiction to the reg.
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2006, 02:10:32 PM »

Sir, my experience has been that anyone (even a cadet) can be led up through the grades with adequate leadership, but having someone who is willing to step up and assume responsibility, even if they aren't quite ready for it, is priceless. 

The perception that I have always battled against is that you can't have someone in a position who isn't ready for it or qualified for it.   It's that viscious circle of needing experience to gain experience.   I've seen squadrons with C/A1C's as Cadet Commanders, because that's all they had and the cadets stepped up.   You honestly cannot expect cadets (or seniors) to become effective leaders if they are not given the tools, the support, or the chance.

It's my personal belief that the job of the Cadet Commander and Cadet Staff is to eventually work themselves out of a job.  There is nothing wrong with having a C/Lt COL be a Cadet Staff Advisor while a C/LT or C/Capt takes the helm.  I don't see that the Senior Member side is any different.  It all comes down to using the resources you have, not lamenting on the resources you wish you had.

What you are not seeing is the units that will promote anyone because the grade doesn't mean anything... If C/AB Snuffy can serve in any position without regard for his grade, why should we care about anything other than if he passes his tests when it comes time to promote him.  For some cadets this translates as:  Why should I continue to test/promote if I can be the Cadet Commander now?

There is a reason for L2K: AB is laid out the way it is... Cadets should grow into positions through progression in the program.  Instead we see... I have 15 airmen... I need a C/CC, a C/CD, a C/CCE, a C/CCF a Flight Commander, a Flight Sergeant.

From TLC: Leadership Expectations in the CIVIL AIR PATROL CADET PROGRAM
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Mike Johnston
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2006, 01:31:39 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.
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GEORGE LURYE
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2006, 02:43:06 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy.

I have been a CAP cadet, I know what cadets are like... I meant it as good natured ribbing, nothing more. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.

The senior program and it's professional appointments does not reflect that of the cadet program, where you start at the bottom and learn as you go.  I'm just saying that you shouldn't have a Cadet Commander who isn't a phase IV cadet, because you don't learn that level of leadership until then.  A cadets abilities should match his/her grade... because the grade reflects the level of training in the program.  Go look at the Leadership Expectations chart which is now included in CAPR 52-16.
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Mike Johnston
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2006, 03:25:28 PM »

I'm curious,  how do you structure the cadets' heiarchy (leadership positions) if you do not have a Phase IV cadet among them?

Cadets who typically make Phase IV are between 16 and 20 years old and begin to have their free time stretched a bit thin.   Just a guesstimate here, but only about 20% of cadets ever make it to Cadet Captain (Phase III is the "Command Phase"), especially in light of our current retention issues. You may decide to appoint a cadet as "Acting Cadet Commander", or just appoint a cadet as "Flight Leader", but that amounts to the same thing. 

I'm just wondering how you work around it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 03:44:57 PM by Psicorp » Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2006, 03:43:45 PM »

You structure it around what you've got to work with.
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Mike Johnston
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,165
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2006, 05:18:01 PM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy. 

Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication.  You may only care about the little embroidery on their shoulders, but hey, it's just you and I assure you that it is, just YOU.  You're just about alone on this issue.  The rest of us tried and true members agree that it's not the grade that gives you the responsibility, it's the ability to handle it and carry out your job.

I have members in my unit who have joined at 1st Lt or Capt and know nothing, but how to flap their wings thru our great skies and I have members who are 2nd Lt and have SLS, CLC, and Tech rating in cadet programs with a couple of years experience in CAP.  Who do you think I'm going to pick for a staff slot?  Now I understand that in cadet programs, the grade requires certain Time In Service to be received, but I must emphasise that it HAS to be the cadet's ability, not his/her grade that determines the elegibility for a staff position.  That's just good leadership.  If you're doing otherwise, you are WRONG and you are letting down your subordinates.

George,

While I can appreciate that you have a particular point of view on this issue, Mike is not alone in his views and it would be wrong to single him out.  Though my views on the issue are not Mike's, one of the tenants of this discussion board is the ability to express your point of view without being personally criticized.  I know for a fact of others who holds Mike's view point on the issue.  There are indeed multiple camps on the issue of cadet grade and duty assignments.

Also, knowing Mike personally, I would have to say that your statement: "Also, you may not care about people's abilities and dedication." is out of line and way out of whack.

Regarding the issue you're discussing: Of course every commander needs to weigh every portion of an individual's qualifications for a duty assignment.  As every leader varies, some put heavier weight on different qualifications; some consider more important the progression in the program, others experience, and still others prefer to see other aspects of leadership ability.   I don't think anybody is advocating assigning an incapable C/Maj to the position of Cadet Commander, nor a brand-new C/AB -- it's all middle ground.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2006, 05:15:44 PM »

Ok, no matter how everyone feels about the issue, CAP and its 46 years of experience speak to us through regulations.  There's a reason why they specifically state that a cadet of any grade may hold any position within a unit.  Feelings are irrelevant.  We work within a set frame for a reason.  Trust it and use it (doesn't mean you can't stretch it.)  Don't try to reinvent the wheel.  Use your time to figure out how to make the wheel better! You feel that putting a cadet who's more capable, but lower in grade is wrong?  Fine... promote the cadet to the grade where you're comfortable (although grade doesn't mean anything in CAP, does it?) Yes I know to be a C/Cpt you have to have 22 months time in CAP, but thoretically you could be 14 years old and quite immature.  On the other hand,  you could have an 18 year old C/SSgt who joined not too long ago who is mature, able, and willing to step up to the challenge of leadership.  I repeat, it would be wrong of you to place the uncapable cadet into the position (no matter what grade) because you would be letting down every cadet who would serve under him/her and that is a failure on your part, as a leader.

As a former member of the military I understand that it's hard to separate grade from job description since the two are related in that world, but they aren't in CAP.  It's just one of the things that makes use CAP and not the Air Force.
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GEORGE LURYE
TopFlight
Recruit

Posts: 9

« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2006, 09:08:56 AM »

May I weigh-in here and agree with George on this matter? We senior members all know that, in the "real world", a newly-minted manager, straight out of college with absolutely NO work experience, waving his/her master's degree like a battle flag is hired as our new boss. Aarrgh!!! We "lowly" associate degreed, working-class team members are suddenly being led by, on paper only, someone whom is qualified to lead us to success. Well, I've had to kick some of these functional idiots to the curb, as they couldn't lead us out of a paper bag.
In CAP, I've witnessed young prodigies test their way to Captain, while maintaining their lack of maturity and leadership skills. As one of our CAP texts states, followers can be taught to lead. I often wonder, how did young Johnny or Jane attain this grade without absorbing the leadership doctrine taught in all of those achievement texts? I've been amazed by the natural leadership shown by mere cadet senior airmen. I think it harkens back to their innate ability to lead. In some of these cadets' brief lives, they have dealt with character-shaping situations, which have imprinted them with a maturity, integrity, and ability to lead, far beyond those whom have book-knowledge.
I'm very proud that our squadron commander believes that the cadet whom demonstrates the ability to lead in a mature and responsible manner, regardless of grade, is the cadet whom has earned the right to lead the cadets. Just my lowly opinion.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 10:28:29 AM by Prd2bCap » Logged
Maureen Robinson
Southeast Region
Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2006, 11:02:15 AM »

May I weigh-in here and agree with George on this matter? We senior members all know that, in the "real world", a newly-minted manager, straight out of college with absolutely NO work experience, waving his/her master's degree like a battle flag is hired as our new boss. Aarrgh!!! We "lowly" associate degreed, working-class team members are suddenly being led by, on paper only, someone whom is qualified to lead us to success. Well, I've had to kick some of these functional idiots to the curb, as they couldn't lead us out of a paper bag.
In CAP, I've witnessed young prodigies test their way to Captain, while maintaining their lack of maturity and leadership skills. As one of our CAP texts states, followers can be taught to lead. I often wonder, how did young Johnny or Jane attain this grade without absorbing the leadership doctrine taught in all of those achievement texts? I've been amazed by the natural leadership shown by mere cadet senior airmen. I think it harkens back to their innate ability to lead. In some of these cadets' brief lives, they have dealt with character-shaping situations, which have imprinted them with a maturity, integrity, and ability to lead, far beyond those whom have book-knowledge.
I'm very proud that our squadron commander believes that the cadet whom demonstrates the ability to lead in a mature and responsible manner, regardless of grade, is the cadet whom has earned the right to lead the cadets. Just my lowly opinion.

I would agree with you totally.  In my almost 6 years as a cadet, i have found that grade doesn't always mean a good leader.  I have seen C/SSgts who are better leaders than high ranking cadet officers.  I think the key ingredient in making a good cadet leader is time.  the cadet with more experience and more time in the program generally will be the better leader.  That is not always the case but it does seem to go that way more than not.  Although there are cases when a cadet walks in the door the first night and i am just waiting for them to promote and get some time in so that i can creditably use them on my staff.  Leadership is a natural ability also.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2006, 03:20:52 PM »

Not realy my young cadet. My Squadron has 10 cadets and all are cadet Airman and below, so my Cadet Commander and Flight Sergeants are both cadet Airmen. It happens but it doesnt really matter  Cadet rank is temporary. Its a Training rank. It deosnt really mean much. I would rotate cadets in various positions. The whole purposeof the cadet program is to expose cadets to leadership. SO in order to do that I may have one guy as CC this month and another next month and rotate to give everyone the experience. Once I get the new cadets experienced I would leave them in the ir respective positions a little longer
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2006, 09:14:28 AM »

Mike, I really suggest that this be the last time you use the word "cadidiots" either online or in person.  I am a Senior Member and have never been a Cadet , but even I feel that you're WAY out of line here, buddy.

I have been a CAP cadet, I know what cadets are like... I meant it as good natured ribbing, nothing more. 


I have also been a cadet, and am asking that you refrain from using the 'cadidiots' expression -- I'm sure you mean it  as good-natured kidding, but generally it is used condescendingly by seniors who have never been cadets themselves.

It is, in fact, demeaning to our cadets, and the cadet program as a whole.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,281

« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2006, 08:22:04 PM »

"Cadidiots", at least as I have seen it used, refers to those cadets who had demonstrated their idiocy as a direct result of cadethood. I haven't seen it used to refer to the CAP cadet corps in general. I too, am a former cadet (occasionally, a former cadidiot), and I have even heard other cadets using the term. It is no different than saying "That idiot in CAP".
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2006, 11:52:01 PM »

"Cadidiots", at least as I have seen it used, refers to those cadets who had demonstrated their idiocy as a direct result of cadethood. I haven't seen it used to refer to the CAP cadet corps in general. I too, am a former cadet (occasionally, a former cadidiot), and I have even heard other cadets using the term. It is no different than saying "That idiot in CAP".

It may well not be intended to be generally applied, but it is often taken that way.

Besides, we're supposed to be training the cadets and setting an example....an officer who calls his cadets 'cadidiots' is no better than a teacher or a coach who resorts to calling players or students names.
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Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2006, 12:37:25 PM »

[...]an officer who calls his cadets 'cadidiots' is no better than a teacher or a coach who resorts to calling players or students names.

But we could put it on the backs of T-Shirts (as long as we don't wear them in uniform).

But, to get back on topic:

I believe that cadets should be treated by both maturity and by grade.  I've run into C/Col's who sat back while things were run under them, whereas, I've seen C/Sara step up to the plate above C/1 Lt's.  It's all a matter of training the cadets to accept the jobs and the responsibilities that coincide.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2006, 12:50:25 PM »



But, to get back on topic:

I believe that cadets should be treated by both maturity and by grade.  I've run into C/Col's who sat back while things were run under them, whereas, I've seen C/Sara step up to the plate above C/1 Lt's.  It's all a matter of training the cadets to accept the jobs and the responsibilities that coincide.
[/quote]

On this, we certainly are in agreement.
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2006, 01:30:32 PM »

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-6. a. Cadet Staff. The cadet staff is part of the organizational structure shown in CAPR 20-1, Organization of Civil Air Patrol. Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such time as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-4. c. Retaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders should retain a cadet in grade if the cadetís performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feedback to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

Emphasis added.
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Mike Johnston
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2006, 07:12:57 PM »

"Cadidiots", at least as I have seen it used, refers to those cadets who had demonstrated their idiocy as a direct result of cadethood. I haven't seen it used to refer to the CAP cadet corps in general. I too, am a former cadet (occasionally, a former cadidiot), and I have even heard other cadets using the term. It is no different than saying "That idiot in CAP".

But thats probably not a good thing to say either. We as mentors are supposed to be guiding these young people In a positive direction. not teaching them to use derogatory words toward each other. It may be done in fun, but it sets a bad precedence. Do we as adults really want to teach young people to call each other idiots?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 11:53:21 AM by flyguy06 » Logged
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