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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: The Best of Squadron Patches
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Author Topic: The Best of Squadron Patches  (Read 153360 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #720 on: March 26, 2013, 06:06:23 PM »

A good commander doesn't take steps in the wrong direction at the whim of his people just to make them happy. 
The proper thing to do would have been to establish the proper shape and then design within that.

The first thing I did when I started designing insignia was to ask "what's the standard".  I was pointed to the
Heraldry Guidelines and adhered to them.  Why waste calories fighting an established standard?

Your inability to properly shape the letters doesn't change the final product.  If you don't know Illustrator, the time to
ask for help is before money is spent.

Properly following the scroll is absolutely visible in a final patch.

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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,146

« Reply #721 on: March 26, 2013, 06:28:35 PM »

When you send your design in, specify the lettering should follow the edge of the scroll. Any decent patch company can make that change easily enough. If you have an example of a patch with the letter format you want to use, include it and tell them make the lettering like that. Simple.
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Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #722 on: March 26, 2013, 06:29:35 PM »

A good commander doesn't take steps in the wrong direction at the whim of his people just to make them happy. 
The proper thing to do would have been to establish the proper shape and then design within that.

The first thing I did when I started designing insignia was to ask "what's the standard".  I was pointed to the
Heraldry Guidelines and adhered to them.  Why waste calories fighting an established standard?

Your inability to properly shape the letters doesn't change the final product.  If you don't know Illustrator, the time to
ask for help is before money is spent.

Properly following the scroll is absolutely visible in a final patch.


Great job on the lettering of your patch. Too bad you violated the USAF rules for use of the Wings logo. I don't have a ruler handy, but it seems you did not keep a 15% stand-off space around the symbol. You also distorted the symbol on the produced patch, a big no-no for the USAF. http://www.trademark.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120213-033.pdf.

Also, what's that shield with the tri-prop symbol on the lower right? That logo doesn't appear on any CAP regs I'm aware of, so there is no way it could possibly be authorized. It also got quite distorted on the embroidered patch. That's also a big no-no, according to the unwritten rules I am making up in my head as I write this.

As for what is "the standard", what if someone had pointed you to the heraldry standards of Her Majesty's Canadian Government? Absent any CAP regulation saying the USAF heraldry standards apply to CAP, the Canadian ones have just as much force and effect over CAP patches as the USAF ones do. If you're going to be a rules stickler, make sure the rules you are stickling about actually apply!
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #723 on: March 26, 2013, 06:34:32 PM »

Great job on the lettering of your patch. Too bad you violated the USAF rules for use of the Wings logo. I don't have a ruler handy, but it seems you did not keep a 15% stand-off space around the symbol. You also distorted the symbol on the produced patch, a big no-no for the USAF. http://www.trademark.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120213-033.pdf.

Incorrect at the time the patch was both created and approved.   The prop and triangle you see there is one of CAP's historic shields.

If you don't want to discuss this like an adult, that's fine.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #724 on: March 26, 2013, 06:40:48 PM »

When you send your design in, specify the lettering should follow the edge of the scroll. Any decent patch company can make that change easily enough. If you have an example of a patch with the letter format you want to use, include it and tell them make the lettering like that. Simple.

In my experience in getting stuff printed/embroidered (I was the equipment manager for an EMS squad in college), printers charge an arm and a leg for their graphics people to modify a design. My squadron has better things to spend money on (e.g. fulfilling our missions), so I wanted to keep costs down.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with how the lettering is on my patch, especially when embroidered. Yes, it looks a bit odd when you see the patch at full resolution and much larger than it would ever be printed, but nobody would ever see it like that. Would it have been nicer if I had skewed the letters? Maybe. Is it as bad as Eclipse makes it out to be? No. Is it a violation of rules so egregious that it will cause Hap Arnold to rise again and kill us all to avenge the insult? No, not even a little.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #725 on: March 26, 2013, 06:44:06 PM »

^ Again, this is supposed to be a message thread where people display and comment on patches that are posted.

You posted a patch, people commented, then you get defensive and try and mischaracterize what I said.

This has nothing to do with how your unit spends money, whether Hap Arnold would care, or if its a "big deal".

You posted your patch, voluntarily, and then get defensive about the accurate comments made.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #726 on: March 26, 2013, 06:47:32 PM »

Great job on the lettering of your patch. Too bad you violated the USAF rules for use of the Wings logo. I don't have a ruler handy, but it seems you did not keep a 15% stand-off space around the symbol. You also distorted the symbol on the produced patch, a big no-no for the USAF. http://www.trademark.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120213-033.pdf.

Incorrect at the time the patch was both created and approved.   The prop and triangle you see there is one of CAP's historic shields.

If you don't want to discuss this like an adult, that's fine.
And where in the rules  of CAP heraldry does it say you can use historical CAP symbols? My whole point in this conversation is that absent CAP regulations saying we must adhere to heraldry standards of any sort (CAP, USAF, USAAC, Australian, etc), no rules actually apply. You therefore cannot fault someone for not following rules that don't apply to them.

You followed the USAF heraldry rules? Awesome! Seriously, great job doing that, and I really like your patch's design. I assume you also followed the CAP rules regarding Wing approval. Awesome, so did I! So we both met our obligations under the CAP regs. Anything more than that is pointless rules wankering.
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Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #727 on: March 26, 2013, 06:56:19 PM »

^ Again, this is supposed to be a message thread where people display and comment on patches that are posted.

You posted a patch, people commented, then you get defensive and try and mischaracterize what I said.

This has nothing to do with how your unit spends money, whether Hap Arnold would care, or if its a "big deal".

You posted your patch, voluntarily, and then get defensive about the accurate comments made.

Of the 37 pages of this thread, about half the posts are people discussing patches without posting images. You're quite right though, I should have listened to my own advise to new members to avoid posting on CAPTalk, as every thread devolves into pointless rule wankering by self-appointed "experts". To whoever is reading this thread in hopes of coming up with a good design of their own, good luck, and go with what you feel is right for your squadron, even if it wouldn't be "approved" by some of the people on CAPTalk.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,015
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #728 on: March 26, 2013, 07:07:00 PM »

Have you consulted CAPR 900-2 regarding the use of various CAP symbols? Those rules are very specific, and newly revised in 12/31/2012.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #729 on: March 26, 2013, 07:07:29 PM »

To whoever is reading this thread in hopes of coming up with a good design of their own, good luck, and go with what you feel is right for your squadron, even if it wouldn't be "approved" by some of the people on CAPTalk.

Right.

Because receiving  advice and criticism about proper shape, color, use of various representations, etc., serves no purpose, whatsoever.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience, many of us have made mistakes, poor choices, or went in directions for various things
where people disagreed. 

Adults accept that criticism, positive or negative, and take from it what they can, or make an case in their favor.

One thing that no gets here is carte blanche acceptance "just because".

Have you consulted CAPR 900-2 regarding the use of various CAP symbols? Those rules are very specific, and newly revised in 12/31/2012.

Yes, in regards to the patch I posted today.  At the time of its design and approval, it was fully compliant.  It remains to be seen whether it will need to be redone based on 900-2's
update.  There are a >lot< of unit insignia and other collateral that contain that image which will probably need to be changed. 

Luckily changing it would be a simple process and it only effects a small group of members.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 07:11:23 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #730 on: March 26, 2013, 07:13:24 PM »

Have you consulted CAPR 900-2 regarding the use of various CAP symbols? Those rules are very specific, and newly revised in 12/31/2012.
The patch was approved prior to the revision of CAPR 900-2.  The new version at least does not prohibit making derivatives of the various CAP designs.
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Ratatouille
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #731 on: March 26, 2013, 07:21:35 PM »

To whoever is reading this thread in hopes of coming up with a good design of their own, good luck, and go with what you feel is right for your squadron, even if it wouldn't be "approved" by some of the people on CAPTalk.

Right.

Because receiving  advice and criticism about proper shape, color, use of various representations, etc., serves no purpose, whatsoever.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience, many of us have made mistakes, poor choices, or went in directions for various things
where people disagreed. 

Adults accept that criticism, positive or negative, and take from it what they can, or make an case in their favor.

One thing that no gets here is carte blanche acceptance "just because".


"That design won't embroider right, trust me, I had the same problem" or "that color is a bit off" or even "you should skew those letters" are perfectly valid criticisms. "It's not the shape that rules that don't apply to us say it should be" isn't valid.
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GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 563

« Reply #732 on: March 26, 2013, 10:23:58 PM »

Can anyone point me to the Official Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Rules and Regulations regarding squadron patches? What about an ICL to 39-1?

As far as I know, you can design what ever you want and as long as the wing commander signs off on it, you are good to go.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #733 on: March 26, 2013, 11:07:43 PM »

Can anyone point me to the Official Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Rules and Regulations regarding squadron patches? What about an ICL to 39-1?

As far as I know, you can design what ever you want and as long as the wing commander signs off on it, you are good to go.

Keeping in mind that some wings do have standards....
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Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #734 on: March 27, 2013, 05:57:34 AM »

As for the map within the triangle, this was approved by NYWg, so it doesn't seem anyone had a problem with it.

Have you been on Wing Staff? 50% is really knowledgeable and goes strictly by rules, regs, etc and 50% will approve anything. It depends on who was there that evening.  ;)
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Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #735 on: March 27, 2013, 05:59:28 AM »

Can anyone point me to the Official Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Rules and Regulations regarding squadron patches? What about an ICL to 39-1?

As far as I know, you can design what ever you want and as long as the wing commander signs off on it, you are good to go.

One Senior Squadron has Elvis Pressley on their Squadron patch, "we find the lost!" Who would approve that?   ::)
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ColonelJack
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,335
Unit: SER-GA-153

« Reply #736 on: March 27, 2013, 06:18:44 AM »

Can anyone point me to the Official Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Rules and Regulations regarding squadron patches? What about an ICL to 39-1?

As far as I know, you can design what ever you want and as long as the wing commander signs off on it, you are good to go.

One Senior Squadron has Elvis Pressley on their Squadron patch, "we find the lost!" Who would approve that?   ::)

Probably the same authority that approved our unit's patch ... Elvis ... with the saying, "If he is out there, we will find him."

Jack
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Lt. Col. Jack Bagley, Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 563

« Reply #737 on: March 27, 2013, 08:28:08 AM »

Can anyone point me to the Official Civil Air Patrol Heraldry Rules and Regulations regarding squadron patches? What about an ICL to 39-1?

As far as I know, you can design what ever you want and as long as the wing commander signs off on it, you are good to go.

Keeping in mind that some wings do have standards....

Wing supplements aside, there are no rules, regulations, standards, etc... You are "encouraged" to follow USAF Heraldry standards.
If the wing commander says it good to go, it is. All the same people that always say "cite please" dont like it, but that is the way it is.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #738 on: March 27, 2013, 10:19:29 AM »

Wing supplements aside, there are no rules, regulations, standards, etc... You are "encouraged" to follow USAF Heraldry standards.  If the wing commander says it good to go, it is. All the same people that always say "cite please" dont like it, but that is the way it is.

No one has said anything different, however when there is an established standard, required or not, and you
choose to swim upstream, that smacks of "You can't, I won't, you can't make me...", which is a huge problem in CAP.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,153
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #739 on: March 27, 2013, 01:34:23 PM »

Good job, gents, getting a thread locked which has been posted in continuously since 2006 without problem.   ::)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: The Best of Squadron Patches
 


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