Over 18 Cadets

[JC004]

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So, as a psychology student my first year at Penn State I did take classes you refrenced.  I also have a degree in History and my Masters in World Cultures.  Then there is my useless Business Admin degree, which really does not relate to this argument.  (To note, not one of my degrees has any relative signifigance to me being an Army Officer).
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World Cultures, eh?  Is that why you like exotic places with lots of sand?

[Dad2-4]

Many people confuse physical maturity with mental maturity.  It does not work that way.   

   

Exactly, as a developmental psych. class may teach you. Currently working in a middle school, I see 12 year olds who are very mature physically, but still have the mental reasoning of a 11-12 year old. It's a characteristic of adolescence to think one is "grown up" mentally because the body is grown up, when in reality the two are not connected. One may not reach a mental level of adulthood until well into the 20s, and maintain some aspects of adolescence until much later in life.
Watch "Jerry Springer" as an example.

[Nathan]

Dude......I thought I knew everything too after I spent one semester away at College.  My professors really opened my eyes.   

Sorry, let's go with, "You should take up being a developmental psychology major like I am." Is that more credible?

Maturity is not something that just "clicks on" when you turn 18.  Don't forget about your Western Civilization class.  It was common for children to marry and have children of their own before their 15th birthday, and hold down a job and provide for the welfare of their family 500 years ago.  It has only been the past 300 years that we started to classify people that had not reached thier 18th birthday as children.  A fairly new concept in the whole scheme of the world.  We have artificialy extended childhood, mostly due in part to lifespans being extended.  I would predict like many philosophy studiers would that as populations get older, childhood will be extended past the arbitrary age of 18.

You're confusing the legal idea of adulthood with the psychological idea of adulthood. Just because you call someone a child does not mean that they are a child, and just because they are called an adult does not mean they are an adult, regardless of what age they are.

Given that, though, the argument isn't whether or not cadets 18+ are CHILDREN, because cadets aren't necessarily children as far as the argument is concerned. It's whether or not they can benefit from the cadet program, and whether or not the program can benefit from them. The answer to both is "yes."

Either way, the possibility for someone younger than 18 to be more mature than someone older than 18 is there.  I can go on and on, but no one wants to do read that.  So I will concede to you that there are factors that determine maturity, but I have to reiterate that age is only one of those factors in a large list, and would rank further toward the bottom. 

I was going to point-counterpoint the whole thing, but it seems pretty summed up here...

Yes, as you said, the POSSIBILITY of someone younger than 18 to be more mature than someone over is there. However, a "possibility" is not necessarily good enough, especially when we're relating this to a radical restructuring of the entire cadet program. We'd have to come up with better than a "possibility."

BTW, with your rather sociological point of view, wouldn't it follow that because our society TRAINS those under 18 NOT to be adults (as you said earlier with the whole extended lifetimes and stuff) that we shouldn't EXPECT the cadets to have a higher maturity level? It kind of goes against your own argument.

Keep in mind that just because children were getting pregnant and taking up jobs at the age of fifteen doesn't mean that it is the ideal way of doing things. I could easily counter that those kids did not need the education or experience to exist in today's world, and therefore easily did not need the "maturity" level that our adults today need. Who knows? They could have been the EXACT same way our own fifteen year olds are. But who cares when your main tasks are farming and raising a kid in the adobe hut your entire family lives in? What's the use of having that maturity? Not to mention that during those times, babies weren't known for being particularly... durable? (Yeah, I actually DID take Western Civ...)

That's my point. Psychologically, there are stages of development, and while no doubt there are other forces at work, it does not necessarily change the fact that the switch is sometime within the 12-20 year range. The extra forces just affect where that switch is. Under your sociological perspective, we could train a five year old to lead an encampment.

[mikeylikey]

..........we could train a five year old to lead an encampment.

CAP is starting to promote that grade school initiative program in some Wings.  So, we may actually see a 10 year old c/COL in the very near future.   <-----Kidding, more like 12 year old c/COL

[mikeylikey]

World Cultures, eh?  Is that why you like exotic places with lots of sand?

ummm......I can surely go without sand for a few more years.  PLUS COLGAN.......your Philly Cheese steak made me freaking sick.  Wait until my cellphone start working again, you will get an earful. 

Anyway.......maturity, over 18 cadets, under 18 cadets, Flight Officers, 21 year olds, adolescents.......blah....blah.....blah. 

I think we are just running this thread out now. 

As NED pointed out previously, there really is nothing here to fix.   

[Major Carrales]

Currently there is little mechinism for the transition of CADETS into CAP OFFICERS.  I have long held the idea that our Cadet Program should serve as a sort of CAPROTC where the future leaders of CAP are groomed.

I too would support the OTC model.

Currently, as has bene pointed out early in this thread.  A second class citizen status exists for Flight Officers.  I have seen it before.  A 7-8 year CAP TFO being patronized by CAP Officer 2d Lts and advanced Promotion Pilots et al. It is quite disgusting to watch those that likely are the most dedicated of CAP...having pledged in the Cadet Oath on a weekly basis to do what that implies...looked down on and cast aside by a host of relative newbies (some of which might just be there for free flying).  Is it a wonder why we don't have good transition rates.

Retired (?) cadets seem to have a real hard time of the transition.  We ned up losing a lot of them.  Those in College also get lost in the crowd.

Is this an area we need to look at with policy?

[stratoflyer]

Perhaps policy should be made to some effect of the ideas suggested in several comments above.

I do firmly believe that the cadet program is a place to groom future CAP leaders. And not just leaders for CAP but other things such as military, government, and business. The cadet program is a system within which one learns leadership. It is IMO one of the best leadership training programs for youths in the country. And it is more than that still.

Further still, cadets over 18 should be offered opportunities unique to their age group, such as extended encampments, intense SAR academies, and a rigorous flight training curriculum. This will create stronger retention rates among these older cadets.

I think the age difference in the cadet program is too large. The younger cadets can't keep up with the older cadets so they shouldn't be held to the same standards. Case in point, the aerospace modules. There was a day when the aerospace requirement for cadets amounted to FAA ground school. Now the modules are essentially for 6th graders. I've seen 17 y/o cadets start promoting soon after they join (to get one good year before college) and they view the modules as a joke.

Another case, the leadership text. It is way too involved for a 12 y/o fully comprehend some of these topics. And if they don't pass the test, they feel held back and unmotivated.

Older cadets should definitely have 'heavier' coursework or more opportunities or something that will fit their age group well. Of course, good luck trying to create a plan like that. I am aware that is asking too much.

On another note...

I think senior member rank is sometimes handed out wastefully. There are some outstanding FO's and young level 1's but then comes someone with a bunch of FAA ratings and/or degrees and they get nice rank but they don't contribute beans. But they act like a real big shot because of their rank.

I personally don't care about my rank. I know my abilities, my potentials, and I am here to contribute to a wonderful organization. My only regret was not staying longer as a cadet.

[mikeylikey]

^ It is a shame when FO's are treated like crap.  I once watched as a new CAPT (special promotion) tried to tell a SFO to go stand in formation with the Cadets (most likely because the CAPT had no idea what the SFO was or thought he was a cadet because of his young appearance).  I walked over to the CAPT, and told him (very sternly) that he was a disgrace and should learn about the program he joined before he comes back to any activity.  I also pointed out that the SFO had just under 10 years in CAP, and asked the CAPT how long he had been in.  Big surprise.......he was in just at 6 months!  He only attended two SQD meetings in that 6 months, one to join and one to do level 1.  

[stratoflyer]

^See what I mean? Special promotions, huh? Sure, for downright special people.

[SJFedor]

^ It is a shame when FO's are treated like crap.  I once watched as a new CAPT (special promotion) tried to tell a SFO to go stand in formation with the Cadets (most likely because the CAPT had no idea what the SFO was or thought he was a cadet because of his young appearance).  I walked over to the CAPT, and told him (very sternly) that he was a disgrace and should learn about the program he joined before he comes back to any activity.  I also pointed out that the SFO had just under 10 years in CAP, and asked the CAPT how long he had been in.  Big surprise.......he was in just at 6 months!  He only attended two SQD meetings in that 6 months, one to join and one to do level 1.  

I was an FO for a good while, and was never really treated like crap ever. I usually had to educate people on what those little white lines on my collar/shoulder meant, but other then that, I never had any problems. Maybe I'm just lucky 

[mikeylikey]

^ It is a shame when FO's are treated like crap.  I once watched as a new CAPT (special promotion) tried to tell a SFO to go stand in formation with the Cadets (most likely because the CAPT had no idea what the SFO was or thought he was a cadet because of his young appearance).  I walked over to the CAPT, and told him (very sternly) that he was a disgrace and should learn about the program he joined before he comes back to any activity.  I also pointed out that the SFO had just under 10 years in CAP, and asked the CAPT how long he had been in.  Big surprise.......he was in just at 6 months!  He only attended two SQD meetings in that 6 months, one to join and one to do level 1.  

I was an FO for a good while, and was never really treated like crap ever. I usually had to educate people on what those little white lines on my collar/shoulder meant, but other then that, I never had any problems. Maybe I'm just lucky 

Too bad I didn't know you when you were a FO then.........   

[BillB]

The comment that the cadet manuals are written for the 12-15 year old cadets gets to the heart of the problem. If you can find it on eBay, the 1949 cadet manuals Volume one book one and book two were written for older cadets. These were way above the current cadet manuals in scope, but at the same time were used by younger cadets who were given a challenge to learn.
With manuals written for the younger cadets, the concept of a transition program such as the OTC mentioned previously has great value in retaining older cadets, those 18-21. The FO insignia needs to return to it's roots of using the old USAF warrent officer grade insignia, the silver bar with one, two or three blue stripes across the bar (not metal insignia)
The OTC program would have advanced leadership, ES or other training as required but still allow the OTC member to test inthe cadet program to continue advancement. So the OTC member would be in a dual program, both cadet and senior, this would provide CAP with well trained senior members when the OTC member hits age 21.

[stratoflyer]

^Yeah this OTC idea sounds good. Definitely, a cadet over 18 should start being looked at as a future senior member with emphasis on leadership and CAP traditions. Older cadets are definitely keepers of tradition--so long as in check with regs.

[Eebdog]

I'm a 23 y/o Capt, I'm still regarded as a kid by (some) senior members. I was a SFO and I thought it was a good experience. Getting treated like a kid by seniors is inevitable. However, if a cadet smarted off to me and I was a FO, I'd sure as hell put him in his place. In every case I've seen a FO (and I've seen a few, as a cadet and as a senior), they didn't catch [mess] because of the insignia they wore, they caught it because of who was wearin' it.

Besides, it's only 3 years, max. How about working toward Capt during that time to make up for it when ya hit 21?

[stratoflyer]

How about someone write out a 'white paper', post it up here, we comment, vote, whatever, and then sent it up chain of command. I think it is a problem that needs fixin' and it would benefit CAP immensely. I just made the transition and I'm still not sure about a lot of things, learning, and such. I would like to contribute more but just waiting to gather up more ratings and stuff. Maybe thos over 18 could start gathering up those ratings so as soon as gray epaulets go on, BOOM, ready to hit the floor runnin'!

Just a thought.

[Ned]

I think it is a problem that needs fixin' and it would benefit CAP immensely.

I'm sorry, but could you state the "problem that needs fixin'"?

I'd be happy to help with the white paper, but none of us can get started without a problem statement of some sort.

Ned Lee

[Eebdog]

Maybe thos over 18 could start gathering up those ratings so as soon as gray epaulets go on, BOOM, ready to hit the floor runnin'!

If they want to work in CP as a senior, they don't need gray epaulets:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_06_04_Officer_credit_for_cadet_service_.pdf

[DC]

Maybe thos over 18 could start gathering up those ratings so as soon as gray epaulets go on, BOOM, ready to hit the floor runnin'!

If they want to work in CP as a senior, they don't need gray epaulets:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_06_04_Officer_credit_for_cadet_service_.pdf

Huh? What do Cadet Milestone recipients getting advanced promotion as SMs have to do with wearing grey epaulets? Or working in Cadet Programs, cadets the go senior get the advanced rank no matter what their specialty track is...

[jimmydeanno]

Maybe thos over 18 could start gathering up those ratings so as soon as gray epaulets go on, BOOM, ready to hit the floor runnin'!

If they want to work in CP as a senior, they don't need gray epaulets:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_06_04_Officer_credit_for_cadet_service_.pdf

Huh? What do Cadet Milestone recipients getting advanced promotion as SMs have to do with wearing grey epaulets? Or working in Cadet Programs, cadets the go senior get the advanced rank no matter what their specialty track is...

He's saying that a former cadet can earn ratings while they are still a cadet and they aren't required to have "grey epaulets" to start because the stuff they're doing now counts when they switch.

[stratoflyer]

I was referring to stuff such as scanner training, or IC training, or something that only seniors do.

Look, rank is good, but the way it works in CAP is it ends up meaning little. So I got gold bars...I've been in CAP since '00. I know a heck of a lot about a lot of things, and not so much about other things, such as ES stuff. One thing I was pointing at is cadets over 18 could start specialized training towards becoming a full blown senior member officer with a hefty knowledge on ES.

As far as the problem, I was thinking about educating senior members more on what FO's are, and emphasize customs and courtesies, and know what is a chain of command and how it works, especially at activities involving cadets.

Another problem, a more structured, more clear transition to to senior member that would include more ES stuff.