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Author Topic: Cadet Commander  (Read 4175 times)
Greg
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Posts: 129

« on: February 18, 2005, 03:34:29 PM »

Try to think of as many Cadet Commanders as you can, then answer these questions:

1. What grade was he/she when he/she became C/CC?
2. What grade was he/she when he/she passed the position to somebody else?

I'm getting at something else, but I want to get some feedback first.........



For my first C/CC, he was a C/2d Lt when he got the position and he was a C/Capt when he left.  My second C/CC was a C/2d Lt during his entire time as C/CC.  My third C/CC was a C/CMSgt when he got the position, and was a C/2d Lt when he turned senior shortly after.  My current C/CC was a C/2d Lt when he got the spot and he's now a C/1st Lt.
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
dark_side#2
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2005, 04:07:15 PM »

My first was C/1st LT, ended at C/capt.  then the next was the same, then C/capt and ended at C ltcol, I think I missed one in there somewhere, and the current CC started the same as they are now; C/ 1st Lt.

So what are you getting to?
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hayes
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Posts: 2

« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2005, 08:24:00 PM »

At my old squadron, my first C/CC was a C/TSgt when she got command, and she was a C/2d Lt when she left. The second one was a C/2d Lt the entire time he was the C/CC.
At my current squadron, I was made the C/CC as a C/CMSgt and am currently a C/Maj.
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Briski
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Posts: 135

« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2005, 10:39:53 PM »

1. Got it as a C/SrA, relinquished as a C/CMSgt.

2. Got it as a C/1st Lt, still serving as a C/Capt.
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JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
VAWG Cadet Programs Team

...not all those who wander are lost...
Horn229
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Posts: 154

« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2005, 05:43:06 PM »

The C/CC when I joined was wearing the discretionary grade of C/Lt Col (shows you how long I've been in), then handed it off as a C/Lt Col to a Cacet Major. the C/Maj was to busy/lazy to do the job, so it went back to the C/Lt Col, who ended up giving it to a C/2d Lt then ran off and didn't give any advice of how to be an effective C/CC.

That C/CC gave it up as a C/1st Lt, to a C/2d Lt, who relinquished it as a C/Maj to a C/Lt Col. I then transfered to a different Squadron, where the C/CC was a C/CMSgt . That C/CC left for college, then I became the C/CC, and I gave it up a few months back to another C/CMSgt .
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NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP
Schmidty06
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2005, 06:41:03 PM »

the first C/CC that I had was a C/Capt when I joined, and he passed it off at C/Lt Col to a C/Capt who made it to C/Maj before it was handed off to a C/2d Lt who passed it off at C/1st Lt to a C/MSgt, who is currently a C/SMSgt, and will most likely pass it off to our current first sergeant who is a C/SMSgt also. 

As far as cadet officers go in my squadron... In the begining there were many, and now there are few.
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Greg
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Posts: 129

« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2005, 05:43:55 PM »

Ok, here are all the C/CC's mentioned in the thread, with the grade they became C/CC and the grade they left.

1. C/2d Lt --- C/Capt
2. C/2d Lt
3. C/CMSgt --- C/2d Lt
4. C/2d Lt --- C/1st Lt
5. C/1st Lt --- C/Capt
6. C/Capt --- C/Lt Col
7. C/1st Lt
8. C/TSgt --- C/2d Lt
9. C/2d Lt
10. C/CMSgt --- C/Maj
11. C/SrA --- C/CMSgt, C/1st Lt --- C/Capt
12. C/Lt Col (discretionary)
13. C/Maj
14. C/2d Lt --- C/1st Lt
15. C/2d Lt --- C/Maj
16. C/Lt Col
17. C/CMSgt
18. C/Maj
19. C/CMSgt
20. C/Capt --- C/Lt Col
21. C/Capt --- C/Maj
22. C/2d Lt --- C/1st Lt
23. C/MSgt --- C/SMSgt


...and here's how many people started at C/CC at the following grades:

7- C/2d Lt
4- C/CMSgt
3- C/Capt
2- C/1st Lt
2- C/Lt Col
2- C/Maj
1- C/Tsgt
1- C/SrA
1- C/Msgt


Now, I know that the purpose of an SDA is not to teach somebody how to fulfill a staff position, but should Cadet Commander really be the last achievement?  Wouldn't it be better if Cadets studied the position of C/CC before or during their time as Cadet Commander?  What do you think? 
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
MIKE
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2005, 06:56:52 PM »

Now, I know that the purpose of an SDA is not to teach somebody how to fulfill a staff position, but should Cadet Commander really be the last achievement?  Wouldn't it be better if Cadets studied the position of C/CC before or during their time as Cadet Commander?  What do you think? 

IMO, I think the Cadet Commander Achievement is right where it is supposed to be... I believe the intent was for the Cadet Officer achievements and associated SDAs were to reflect what position a cadet would hold while in each phase/grade.  For the most part the positions fit the grade based on the level of training expected...   Often times commanders don't dole out leadership and staff positions based what I think the intent of associated CP documents was though.

It's not normal for a 2d Lt to command a squadron sized unit... For that same 2d Lt to command a flight sized unit or to serve as a lower level staff officer is much more realistic.  Having a Cadet Commander who is somewhere between the grades of C/Capt and C/Col seems about right to me.
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Mike Johnston
MIKE
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2005, 08:07:33 PM »

Some more thoughts:

Now, I know that the purpose of an SDA is not to teach somebody how to fulfill a staff position, ...

I disagree with that statement, particularly when taking into consideration the staff service requirements.

Quote from: CAPP 52-14
Staff Service. Additionally, once during Phase III and once during Phase IV, the cadet will participate in staff service, acting as an apprentice to a senior member staff officer for 4-6 weeks (see Figure 1, page 3). To fulfill this requirement, the cadet may serve as a staff assistant in any of the staff positions associated with the Phase. For example, in Phase III, the cadet may serve as a cadet flight commander, administrative officer, or public affairs officer, under the supervision of the senior member counterpart on the squadron staff. Which position the cadet serves in is up to the squadron commander.

If we say that each cadet must be a minimum grade to begin studying or serving in a particular staff position associated with a particular achievement, and completion of some achievements grant higher grade, which serves as the maximum grade for the completed achievement and minimum grade for the higher achievement it breaks down like this:

Achievement                     Min Entrance Grade/Max Allowable Grade for Position

9 Flight Commander                 C/2d Lt - C/1st Lt
10 Administrative Officer           C/2d Lt - C/1st Lt
11 Public Affairs Officer             C/1st Lt - C/Capt
12 Leadership Officer                C/Capt - C/Maj
13 Aerospace Ed. Officer           C/Capt - C/Maj
14 Operations Officer                C/Capt - C/Maj
15 Logistics Officer                    C/Maj - C/Lt Col
16 Cadet Commander               C/Maj - C/Lt Col (Also Cadet Deputy Commander & Cadet Executive Officer.)
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Mike Johnston
Greg
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Posts: 129

« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2005, 08:29:23 PM »

It's not normal for a 2d Lt to command a squadron sized unit... For that same 2d Lt to command a flight sized unit or to serve as a lower level staff officer is much more realistic.  Having a Cadet Commander who is somewhere between the grades of C/Capt and C/Col seems about right to me.

I agree that that would be ideal, but when you look up, fourteen out of twenty-three people became C/CC before they evey got past the Public Affairs Officer achievement.

Some more thoughts:

Now, I know that the purpose of an SDA is not to teach somebody how to fulfill a staff position, ...

I disagree with that statement, particularly when taking into consideration the staff service requirements.

I can see why you disagree, but the introduction of CAPP 52-14 states:

Quote from: CAPP 52-14
"The purpose of the cadet staff duty analysis program (SDA) is to improve cadets' critical thinking and communication skills through the practical application of leadership.
The objectives for SDAs include:
1) Improve critical thinking skills [snip]
2) Improve communication skills [snip]
3) Comprehend leadesrhip and teamwork
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
Yoda
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Posts: 80

« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2005, 09:14:41 PM »

Actually, you know that little reference to the CAPP 52-14 at the bottom of every cadet position listed in the CAPR 20-1?  I queried the Knowledgebase about that, and they responded with:


Quote from: Knowledgebase
When a cadet assumes a new staff assignment, he or she will likely need
some help learning how that job contributes to the squadron's mission.
What are some of the major duties of the position?  Which publications
govern the job?  What's a good way of approaching these issues and
studying the nature of the staff position?  The "Staff Duty Analysis"
pamphlet, CAPP 52-14, guides cadets in their study of staff work and
helps them answer those questions.

The "Organization of Civil Air Patrol," CAPR 20-1, merely points cadets
to the SDA guide, suggesting that it will be helpful to any cadet who
faces the challenge of beginning a new duty assignment.

While CAPR 20-1 does not mandate that cadets complete any SDA
activities, the Cadet Program regulation, CAPR 52-16, requries cadet
officers to complete "SDA Reports" and "SDA Staff Service" to qualify
for promotions during Phases III and IV. 

For more information on the SDA activities required of cadet officers,
please see CAPR 52-16, paragraph 2-8, which will point you back to CAPP
52-14 for in-depth guidance.

I hope this reply answers your question.

So, even though you are not required to complete an SDA for your position upon assuming it, National believes it would be helpful.  While it wouldn't encompass all of the potential issues and problems that face a C/CC, it certainly would help.

With this in mind, I completed an SDA on my own position after getting that reply.  I think it was moderately helpful, and probably would have been moreso if I had done it upon first assuming the position.
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whatevah
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my personal website, yo!
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2005, 09:34:16 PM »

something to think about... you're only asking about their grades, not how long they were in the position, how well they did it, or if they had tested past the achievement and never promoted.

I was a 2d Lt when I got it, and turned it over 10 months later (forced out because a parent on wing staff didn't like her baby boy not getting promoted) when I was a 1st Lt.  however, in that time, I had tested up to chapter 14 (including the earhart test, by accident because the seniors & I thought I had done the pt test for the chapter before it. oops).  so, testing wise, I was a C/Maj. ::)     I've been kicking myself about not finishing that PT Test and getting the promotions, but at the time, I was too busy running the unit. this was back when you could bank tests, so the seniors didn't make me to take the pt test.

I did a very good job as the C/CC, I think... we had good meetings, working to meet short and long-term goals the cadet staff set for themselves, cadets were successfully passing achievements and review boards, we had interesting activities and the cadet staff worked well to keep the entire squadron interested in the unit. The C/CC after me also followed my structure (I stayed on as advisor) although in time, a hotshot officer started trying to take over things. in 10 months, the hotshot was the new C/CC and there was also a change in senior leadership at the same time.  the senior let the C/CC do whatever he wanted, and didn't make sure that the cadets were following the requirements in 52-16. within a year, the membership had dropped 50% and the meetings no longer followed a structured meeting schedule (and the PT Tests rules were bent a little... nice leadership by example, that was).

So, while there was a C/Lt Col as the C/CC at this point... he was the worst C/CC the unit had in 5 years. And, when he left a year later, the cadet staff were all new enough to CAP, that they never have a good leader showing them the proper ways of running the unit.  Even today, a year after that C/CC left (got into the AFA) the unit is still one of the worst in the wing. I hope they get a good senior to turn things around, soon. They have a good meeting location, in the most populated part of the state, so they have the potential to grow again.
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Jerry Horn
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