CAPR 52-16 DRAFT Available for Comment

Has anyone noticed a change that National doesn't say is a change? Look up the CAC section and you will find that all CAC representatives at all levels are APPOINTED. No longer are they ELECTED by cadets at that level.
The entire concept of the CAC was to provide cadets an avenue to bring suggestions and report local problems to higher levels (Group or Wing usually) This is taken away if commanders appoint. For example, the Commander of the Mickey Mouse Cadet Squadron, appoints his son/daughter as the Squadron representative. Do you think Group or Wing will hear of any problems in the Mickey Mouse cadet Squadron?
I was one of three seniors (all former cadets that drew up the original regulation for CAC back in the 1950's. The CAC had it's own chain of command to bring up issues and suggestions OUTSIDE of senior control. With commanders appointing their favorite cadets as CAC representatives, this chian in broken.

The old system allowed commander's to appoint as well, if they really wanted to do so.  It was appoint or elect.
 
Even if the commanders now must appoint, the commander can tell the CAC to hold an election and give him the names of the winners as recommendations, who he or she will then "appoint" to the position.
 
Like I said before, if Commander Corrupt of the Mickey Mouse unit had wanted to appoint "pet" CAC reps to hide their problems, he could have done it under the guidelines currently out there now.

The commander of the Mickey Mouse Cadet Squadron would always be the best.  And would always have the best personell, cadet or senior.

The commander of the Donald Duck Cadet Squadron on the other hand... 

(Matt & Airforcecolors - who will be the first to tell Major Sorenson ~ Sir (Ron)? 

It is not lowering any bars.

This is allowing for more people to participate at levels appropriate for them.  Which has been denied in a lot of organizations for a long time.

The "bar" as you put it should continually be set by yourself.  Starting at what ever level of which you are able and then pushing yourself to work to your best potential.

If you want your cadets to achieve a higher "bar" then show them the way. Offer them more.  You are not limited to teach only from the books that CAP provides.  In fact CAP encourgages members to expand in all educational areas.  Especially Aerospace Education.

When did everyone get limiting in their views of the outside world.

Look out side the box and allow for modification for any individual preference.

Are you saying there should be no standards?  That cadets should be able to design their own program but everyone should get the same awards?  Lowering the standards so low that everyone achieves the goal is no achievement at all.

Please let me be the first one to bring up a Senior issue in Cadet Programs.  I am one of few seniors in NY Wing to have TLC credit.  I can tell you that it is going to be very hard to find enough Master rated seniors to conduct TLC courses to seniors in ALL squadrons such that every Cadet and Composite squadron has at least two qualified senior members.  This just isn't feasible.  Considering that TLC is mostly a hazing recognition and reaction seminar, would it not be easier to simply update the CPP training materials?

Considering that TLC is mostly a hazing recognition and reaction seminar...

Um, have you read the TLC materials lately?  Seems like it's a lot more than that.  They even make clear that TLC should be a Group or Wing activity, to open the instructor and student pool enough to make the course worthwhile.

Methinks you're remembering the old TLC, which was pretty lame.

I never knew CAC reps were elected. Usually, the cadet who volunteered/voluntold for the job got it. The only CAC reps that I thought were elected were those who represented lower CAC's to higher CAC's, i.e. group to wing.

To my rememberance, CAC reps are appointed by the commander. 

Within the CAC, there may be elections for the various duties (ie. chair, vice chair, recorder), etc.

Para 3-2 in the current 52-16 talks about the composition of CACs. It specifically says "appoint," not elect.

I do not think the word "elect" has been used as it pertains to CAC in a long time. (20+ years, maybe?)

How many Master Rated CP seniors do we have in CNY Group?  Do we have ANY?  Sounds like a lot of us seniors are going to have to travel to take this course.

How many Master Rated CP seniors do we have in CNY Group?

Two.  Me and Capt Jones.

How conveeeeenient.  For me that is.  You... well... you're umm... you're going active duty as the group's TLC instructor.  hehehehe

How conveeeeenient.  For me that is.  You... well... you're umm... you're going active duty as the group's TLC instructor.  hehehehe

Don't worry George. Already ahead of you.  We're putting together a TLC, Target Date: February.
 
Thread back to topic. 

Are you saying there should be no standards?  That cadets should be able to design their own program but everyone should get the same awards?  Lowering the standards so low that everyone achieves the goal is no achievement at all.

No, I am not saying there should be no standards...  What kind of statement is that...

But as a public non profit organization, allowances must be made to allow others of lesser means to partake in the program.  We can not discriminate.  So if we take the money of those who have issues with making it through the program then help must be provided to those who need it.  The program should start at an national average level with allowances made to help those below that level.  And extra incentives for above that level.  Yes it should be made possible for all the cadets with the drive to attempt the Spaatz.

The fact that a total of 1521 Spaatz awards having been giving since it's inception (in 1964) as apposed to the Eagle Scout Award (established 1969) being earned by 50,377 in 2004 alone.  With a current boy scout membership of 988,995 that is 5% of the membership and that is on the increase.  Civil Air Patrol's Cadet membership is currently at 26,537 members with 33 Spaatz award earned in 2004 that is 0.1%.

Am I really the only one seeing a problem here?

With regards to wether or not cadets should be able to design their own program and everyone should get the same awards... YES & NO...  It is the cadets program they learn leadership by running the program so Yes.  But the ultimate goal, IE the Spaatz,  should be something that needs to be WORKED hard for.   HOWEVER, with only 0.1% being earned I see a problem.

It seems to me that many people are afraid of change and are afraid of letting "dumb" people into the program.  I posted to let others know to have faith it will work out for the best in the end.  More optimism and less pessimism.

I obtained the above information form the Boy Scouts national web site and Civil Air Patrols 2004 Report to congress

This is an excellent thread even though it could lead into a politically explosive area.
As someone who's been a CAP member for two seconds compared to the rest of you, I can't comment on how "the bar" for cadets has changed over the years.
But I have to say that I agree with "Abysmal" generally. The trend in our society has been to "lower the bar" as opposed to demanding that people meet the established standards. Only the military, to some degree, has rejected this trend.

The fact that a total of 1521 Spaatz awards having been giving since it's inception (in 1964) as apposed to the Eagle Scout Award (established 1969) being earned by 50,377 in 2004 alone.

I think the percentages are different because Eagle Scout is the only progression path in Boy Scouts.  If you're in the Boy Scouts for that many years, you are clearly there for the sole overarching purpose of making Eagle Scout.

In CAP, someone can be a cadet for many years, and do many different things that make for a successful cadet career: command encampment, run a drill team, attend NCSAs, become a pilot, gain ES ratings, etc.  The rank progression is only one facet of the program.

Combine that with the fact that the Spaatz is not administered locally, and a lot of Eaker cadets got there with at least a little pencil whipping (sometimes a lot), and the supposed mystery and elitism surrounding the award, and you end up with a lot of cadet officers for whom testing and promotion are not their thing.

Personally, I think retention is a bigger problem than milestone percentages.  But that's another thread for another day... 

I think the percentages are different because Eagle Scout is the only progression path in Boy Scouts.  If you're in the Boy Scouts for that many years, you are clearly there for the sole overarching purpose of making Eagle Scout.

I categorally deny that.  I was in scouting for 13 years, Tiger to Eagle.  However, toward the end, as the few on here truly know me, it almost didn't happen.  I had side-tracked to training, camp/council staff.  I hadn't put my khaki uniform on for well over a year prior.  Then one day, coming off of two weeks of mono, I whipped up a project finished 3 merit badges and handed my "Eagle Packet" in 1 day before I turned 18 (14 prior to be exact).

The goal that I found was not for the Eagle, it was to give back.  The Eagle is not the end goal.  The end goal is to return to scouting what you have gained.  Eagle is something that one has to put their mind toward, yes it's a little check mark to go work at NASA, but, realistically, the leadership and character are the end goals of scouting.

Just my 2 cents.

Don't get me wrong, I don't view Eagle Scout as something people just get for vanity or ego.  I hope you didn't read that in my remarks.  I know there is the "greater good" factor as well (as there is in CAP).

However, I would still say that people who stay in scouting that long, by and large, are there to finish up what they started (i.e., get Eagle Scout).  The same is not true for long-time CAP cadets, who are often still in the program for different reasons.

It's just a guess, and I could be way wrong here, but it seems to me that Boy Scouts are probably on a path to Eagle if they're still in the program through high school.  At least, that's my perception.  Whereas, your average 18+ CAP cadet is probably nowhere near Spaatz, and for many, it's not even on their radar.

Anyway, it's all hand-wavy generalizations, because I don't have statistics in front of me (and I doubt CAP has statistics on what 18+ cadets do).  I was just fishing for ideas on why the percentages are so different.  I think it's because the focus of the program is different for cadets/scouts approaching the "age out" point.

I just finished reading the book "Get Off My Honor", written by an Eagle Scout.  He is trying to defend the Scouts from the Homosexual Onslaught.  What I found particularly interesting was the discussion of the history of the Boy Scouts and why it started.  At the turn of the 19th century a man in England noticed how the boys were becoming lazy, crude, rude, and morally corrupt, and he started a group of young male scouts in England.  His goal was to get the boys back into being morally clean, and to become the leaders that the country needed for the future. 

Vision Statement

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

I doubt if the author ever knew about CAP and what we offer boys.  Our leadership program has so much to it, but unlike the local boy scout groups, the training for the cadet can also be ongoing through encampments, Wing events, and National events.  Yet, as Justin and Julie Anne says, there is so much to offer the cadet, that he (also she) can spend seven years doing things that won't automatically get you to Spaatz if you don't push the pencil.  But you can be a pilot, a whiz at search and rescue, color guard expert, you name it - these things can be used as employment opportunities and aren't found in the Boy Scouts.  You get the Eagle Award and you don't have a qualification to be an Eagle....you get a pilot's license and you are on your way in the blue sky!   I'd say the comparison of a boy scout vs a CAP cadet can be closely similar, or vastly different - it all depends on how much the cadet wants to learn and work in the leadership program. If the scout doesn't do much, he's like the cadet who doesn't do much.  But for the Scout who becomes an Eagle Scout, he still can't compare to a cadet who's done it all.  The Boy Scout only does Leadership, which is just a third of our program!  CAP has three different paths and the Boy Scouts has only has one path, so its comparing apples to oranges!
  And Matt, being an Eagle Scout is great too! 

Don't get me wrong, I don't view Eagle Scout as something people just get for vanity or ego.  I hope you didn't read that in my remarks.  I know there is the "greater good" factor as well (as there is in CAP).

However, I would still say that people who stay in scouting that long, by and large, are there to finish up what they started (i.e., get Eagle Scout).  The same is not true for long-time CAP cadets, who are often still in the program for different reasons.

It's just a guess, and I could be way wrong here, but it seems to me that Boy Scouts are probably on a path to Eagle if they're still in the program through high school.  At least, that's my perception.  Whereas, your average 18+ CAP cadet is probably nowhere near Spaatz, and for many, it's not even on their radar.

Anyway, it's all hand-wavy generalizations, because I don't have statistics in front of me (and I doubt CAP has statistics on what 18+ cadets do).  I was just fishing for ideas on why the percentages are so different.  I think it's because the focus of the program is different for cadets/scouts approaching the "age out" point.

Nah, mate, just simply stating that like CAP, scouts has other tracks.  The programs within are are actually totally seperate, whereas ours are intertwined.  Scouting has Boy Scouts, Venturing, Exploring (Fire, Rescue, SAR, Police, Aviation, Communications, Etc.), Varsity, Learning For Life.  There's a lot within the program, we just need to tap into thier resources, of which, they have a lot.

However, I must concur with the Spaatz goal.  I started out at 16 aiming for it, flew like an F-16 through my enlisted grades and look where I'm at at just under 20, 2nd Lieuy.  I got involived in Pro. Dev. because it caught my interest, no, it's not part of the CP, by no means, but that is what caught my interest.  Same as ES.  My overall goal is to earn my Earhart and become a C/Maj, which I can minimally do by 21.  It's doable, I've just got to put forth effort and time.  Which is the biggest catch with 18+ cadets, they run low on time because of school, work, and mostly life.

I just finished reading the book "Get Off My Honor", written by an Eagle Scout.  He is trying to defend the Scouts from the Homosexual Onslaught.  What I found particularly interesting was the discussion of the history of the Boy Scouts and why it started.  At the turn of the 19th century a man in England noticed how the boys were becoming lazy, crude, rude, and morally corrupt, and he started a group of young male scouts in England.  His goal was to get the boys back into being morally clean, and to become the leaders that the country needed for the future. 

Vision Statement

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

I doubt if the author ever knew about CAP and what we offer boys.  Our leadership program has so much to it, but unlike the local boy scout groups, the training for the cadet can also be ongoing through encampments, Wing events, and National events.  Yet, as Justin and Julie Anne says, there is so much to offer the cadet, that he (also she) can spend seven years doing things that won't automatically get you to Spaatz if you don't push the pencil.  But you can be a pilot, a whiz at search and rescue, color guard expert, you name it - these things can be used as employment opportunities and aren't found in the Boy Scouts.  You get the Eagle Award and you don't have a qualification to be an Eagle....you get a pilot's license and you are on your way in the blue sky!   I'd say the comparison of a boy scout vs a CAP cadet can be closely similar, or vastly different - it all depends on how much the cadet wants to learn and work in the leadership program. If the scout doesn't do much, he's like the cadet who doesn't do much.  But for the Scout who becomes an Eagle Scout, he still can't compare to a cadet who's done it all.  The Boy Scout only does Leadership, which is just a third of our program!  CAP has three different paths and the Boy Scouts has only has one path, so its comparing apples to oranges!
  And Matt, being an Eagle Scout is great too! 

I would have to concur.  We offer a great deal, however our retention is not as vast as scouting.  No matter where you go in the WORLD, scouts are there.  Almost everyone that I have encountered knows what the scouts are and what they're about, however, CAP they scratch their heads.

We're a great kept secret, but perhaps we need to spread the word.  We need to draw to concurrent membership in scouting.  Most scouts in CAP are more than willing to preach the program, and most scoutmasters are more than willing to allow CAP to come and speak.

Another major key that boils down is the funding involved in programs.  In scouting, most of everything can be covered at the troop or council expense with the exception of camps and trips.  However, in CAP, we have to update uniforms, invest time in the uniforms, and invest a vast amount of time in the programs.  If we could simply offer the program and everything that goes with it without having to worry about funding, and to give benefits to the cadets we'd not only retain more, but we'd gain more.

Has anyone sent in comment to National about the 52-16 Draft?

Has anyone sent in comment to National about the 52-16 Draft?

Not yet.  But, I am "Drafting" the official response from the Wisconsin Wing Cadet Programs Directorate.

(We had our last meeting a few weeks ago, and discussed the various changes.)

Does anyone have the lastest draft approved at the Summer Boards or when they will be release final version to members?