Gridding Systems

[KyCAP]

All:

I searched back through the board and have located many discussions on "gridding" tools and the purchase of "gridded sectionals", etc.

However, I want to see if the other "Big Brains" on this forum can see a similar issue that I am starting to recognize.

In CAP we are taught two gridding systems.   The "Old" CAP sectional based grid system and the "NEW" CAP Lat/Lon grid system.   I am not going to explain those here for brevity.

These systems are beneficial because it addressed a real issue that we needed a "quick" way back then to address different charting systems (NACO/USGS) rapidly and with a standardized system.

Since then, we have had several MAJOR events that have forced gridding systems to evolve.   As an IC I have seen these things in the white noise and not tried to learn "something else".   

I do believe however that there is a need to start addressing a system that seems to have planted itself and been fairly well defined for some time.  It's based on the MGRS system (I think) and it is being taught at the National Guard level (best I can tell).   Many Emergency Managers discussion forums on the interweb discuss this system.

The punch line is the US National Grid System...

http://www.fgdc.gov/usng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Grid

It looks to me from the NSARC web site to be the primary system for georeferencing for SAR.   USAF is a NSARC member.  Does that mean we should look to see USNG from AFRCC taskings or can they take that coordinate system now and CAP doesn't?
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opr/nsarc/nsarc.htm


It is supported by GIS software packages:
http://www.delorme.com/xmap/
http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0705/usng1of2.html

I also just checked my PN-20 and I can change the coordinate system to USNG/MGRS in the setup on the fly.

So, there it is...

Is this already updated in the SQTR and being taught by ES and I am not aware or does this need to be injected into CAP NESA / Mission Directorate training for interoperability in the Planning / Operations Sections?

Humbly submitted.

[RiverAux]

It sounds interesting.  The tricky part will be having to integrate it with aeronautical charts and the GPS systems in our airplanes.  I imagine it can be overlaid onto the lat-long based aeronautical charts similar to the CAP grid since the Nat Grid appears to be based on that as well. 

[flynd94]

Ah, you have touched on one of my hot topics.  If you look at the current version of the National SAR Supplement it still shows what you call the "old CAP system".  The "new CAP system" is a result of NESA/John Desmarsis. 

Currently, the National SAR Supplement is being rewritten and, will have a new Grid system in it.  I do believe its the one you speak of at

http://www.fgdc.gov/usng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Grid

Hopefully, CAP will use the new system.  I still don't understand why we use the NESA System (as I call it), we follow the National SAR Supplement.  Correct me if I am wrong but, its one of the tenets of ICS/NIMS interoperability, common terminology and, standardization.  Or is CAP just paying "lip service" to these concepts.

[RiverAux]

I think you will find that no matter what the SAR supplement says, no other local and probably few state agencies are going to know anything about the old-style CAP system or the alternative CAP system nor this new National Grid either. 

[flynd94]

Ummm.... I would beg to differ.  I have worked with many outside SAR organizations and, they use the grid system that is listed in the National SAR Supplement.  Just my experience

[KyCAP]

Just found this...

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opr/nsarc/Gita%20-%20March%2008.pdf

Looks like our grids are pre-determined at this point.  We just need to follow suit.

[sardak]

The two CAP grid systems are area reference systems, which describe an area.  If a specific point, such as a crash site, needs to be reported, CAP uses lat/lon, a point reference system.

The US National Grid (USNG) is a point reference system. USNG was selected as the standard federal civilian grid reference system in 2001.  Almost everyone, including the federal government, ignored it.  The post-Katrina reports and studies noted the need for a common grid system, so USNG was recommended as the solution.

USNG is based on the Military Grid Reference System (MGRS), which is based on Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates.  MGRS replaces some of the numbers in a UTM coordinate string.  UTM and MGRS, being worldwide systems, are based on the WGS84 datum.  USNG, being just for the US, is based on the NAD83 datum.  Unless you're a surveyor, NAD83 and WGS84 are considered equivalent. Most GPS receivers can show position in MGRS and UTM.  The following describe the same location to 1 meter precision (better than needed, but typical resolution of a GPS receiver):

UTM = 13S 0492351 4350796  same as  USNG/MGRS = 13S DD 92351 50796 
Lat/Lon = 39d  18.391m W   105d  05.323m N (2 meter resolution)

When CAP revised the ES program to its current task based system in 1999, one of the tasks created was O-0208 "Locate a Point on a Map Using Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) Coordinates."  It was required for UDF team members and Ground Team Leaders.  When CAPR 60-3 was revised in 2004, this task was dropped.  A mistake for the GTL rating, in my opinion.  UTM is the point reference system preferred by many ground SAR organizations when lat/lon is not required (usually when working with aircraft).  The task could be easily revised to include USNG and reinstated for GTLs.

At the 2007 national state SAR coordinator's meeting, the commander of AFRCC told the coordinators that the Global Area Reference System (GARS) would be the reference system that AFRCC would use.  GARS was used during the Katrina response.  He said GARS would replace the CAP grid systems.  There was a CAP NHQ rep at the meeting.

The commander also said the GARS requirement would be put into the MOUs between the states and AFRCC. His announcement was met with less than enthusiastic support from the state SAR coordinators.  In fact, based on their reaction, the National SAR Committee (NSARC) speaker, whose presentation followed AFRCC's, said he would just skip his slides on GARS.  Those coordinators who understood the issue, and many did not, suggested using USNG or UTM instead of GARS because GARS is an area reference system, not a point reference system.

Updated MOUs with the GARS requirement were sent to the states.  Those state reviewers who knew what the problems were rejected the MOUs.  To their credit, AFRCC and NSARC revisited the problem.  The result was NSARC now recommends USNG for the primary land SAR point reference system, lat/lon for the primary aviation point reference system, and GARS as the primary method of tracking overall area organization and accountability (overall situational awareness) for "catastrophic incident SAR," those where ESF 9 has been activated by the feds.  The requirement for a specific reference system, air or land, was removed from the MOUs.

NSARC recommends USNG as the primary system for air-ground coordination. From NSARC "Aeronautical SAR Responders working with Land SAR Responders have the primary responsibility of coordinating SAR using USNG.  However both groups must become familiar with both georeference systems."

GEOTRANS is free software from the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency (NGA) that converts between USNG-UTM-MGRS-GARS-Lat/Lon and other coordinate systems and datums.  It is the code used in many GPS receivers to do datum and coordinate conversions. 

http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/geotrans/index.html

Mike

[KyCAP]

Mike,

I knew there were a few "Big Brains" out here in the know..

Looks like your post and my last one with the Matrix link went up at the same time.

[RRLE]

I am a member of the National Map Corps. I have found MapTools an excellent source of map tools/templates, especially for working with UTM. There is also a lot of good and free info on that site.

[KyCAP]

National Map Corp looks like a cool project.

[easystreets]

Hi all!

Very glad to see this chain of postings.  My name is Talbot Brooks and our mapping center has done considerable work with USNG and SAR.  In fact, I'll be presenting a 1 hour seminar on USNG at the NASAR Conference in Colorado Springs later this week.  If we can help in any way or answer questions, please don't hesitate to call upon us.  Contact information is as follows:

Talbot Brooks, Director
Center for Interdisciplinary Geospatial Information Technologies
Delta State University
Box 3325
Cleveland, MS 38733

15SYT082336405

662-846-4520 (o)
662-402-3772 (c)

tbrooks@deltastate.edu

http://mississippi.deltastate.edu (USNG homepage)

Please also note that, within reason, we have and will stand up a mapping support team here at our center 24/7 if so requested at no charge in an effort to support live missions or training exercises.  We are also very willing to work with other mapping support groups such as the National Map Corps to provide training, outreach, and awareness efforts.  GISCorps from URISA helped us considerably during Katrina and we're trying to "pass it on".

Best wishes and safe flying,
Talbot