Letter of Reprimand for senior

[lvflyer]

I am a fairly new member of CAP and just received a letter of reprimand in my file, I believe, under false pretenses.  Since I joined it has been difficult getting the correct answers to my questions so I tend to be persistent in my quest for answers.  This can come off as challenging, but when I am verbally corrected I accept whether I agree or not.  My squadron commander just wrote everythingthing that he has ever talked to me about in a "letter of reprimand" for my file.  Any research I have done tells me that a letter of reprimand is for repeat offenders and those that will not take instruction.  Much of the accusations are out of context and false of which I have proof and witnesses.  I understand the Group Commander was the motivator in having this placed in my file so it is difficult for me to appeal up the chain.  What if anything can I do to have this removed from my file so it can't be used against me in the future out of context?  Isn't the normal course of action for discipline verbal correction, if repeated then, memo in file, if repeated, letter of counseling, if repeated reprimand, if repeated letter of reprimand?  I think many steps were bypassed in this case.  For reasons of anonymity I won't go into details on the forum, but will discuss this privately with someone that has experience with this and the processes involved.

[SDF_Specialist]

BTDT. My suggestion would be to talk to the Wing Chief of Staff (if you have one), or the Wing CC. If you can't take it up the chain as far as unit and group, go to the next echelon. Being "fairly new", you obviously have a lot of questions so you will learn how it's done. If you can't get answers, you may have incompetent command structure. It's becoming more and more common, so don't feel alone. The same thing has happened to me, with no record of anyone ever talking to me (yes, I did ask to see a copy of the "record" but never got it). Things like this discourage some people from renewing. My experience definitely had me doubting my future with CAP. But once I stepped back and looked at my situation, I realized that it was in my best interest to leave the unit that I was in, and go somewhere else where the members could get as much attention as they needed to get off the ground. That's just my suggestion though.

[lordmonar]

For a LOR you should be able to include a rebuttal letter to go along with the LOR.  This allows you to tell your version of events.

Other than that your only recourse is to use the chain of command and/or IG system.

[Frenchie]

It would be really nice if CAP had a fair appeals process, but for many wings it simply doesn't.  Challenging such actions may eventually result in you being removed from CAP even if you have a legitimate grievance.  If you were a longtime member with friends up the chain of command, you might do well complaining, but for a new member, it's not likely too many people are going to miss you when you're gone and that fact is not lost on those who hold positions of authority, such as they are.

That's just the harsh reality of CAP.  I've seen good members driven out by bad leaders.

You can always draft a written response to the reprimand and have it added to your record and then just try to make the most of a bad situation.  You can also fight the action and take your chances.  There's pluses and minuses either way and you just have to decide if standing up for what you believe is right is worth your membership in CAP.

[FW]

^If you do your homework and understand the process  this LOR will eventually go away.  This LOR should contain a specific course of action for you to take.  If this action plan is unrealistic or based on a retaliatory action, you may go to the next level of command.  Just be professional in your actions.  I alway reccomend to follow our core values and ethics policy even if those over you are forgetting these principles. 

BTW, no one gets their membership terminated by following the regs and taking "the high road" at all times.  They can try, but there is always the MARB.
It is the one body in CAP which is outside the "chain of command".  It is our insurance policy that your commanders follow the rules of conduct for  administering "adverse actions".

[RiverAux]

I would definetely write a response to your commander with a copy to the next level up.  Depending on exactly what you're being reprimanded for, be sure to review the applicable regulations and make sure that you are in the right.  Also, review the regulations on membership termination and complaints. 

Incidentally, I seem to recall that NHQ is working on some sort of new regulation covering all sorts of "adverse actions" that can be taken against members for various causes.  Right now they seem to be scattered about all over the regs. 

[Stonewall]

I got a letter of reprimand once; as a counter-attack for when I busted the commander and his deputy for a bogus promtion of one of their sons from SSgt to 2d Lt so he could get his Mitchell before leaving for college.  The LOR was totally BS and was based on me putting together a "Rescue Challenge" for local CAP units.  He told me I couldn't do it so I suggested it to the wing ES section.  He said I jumped the chain of command yadda yadda yadda.

When I transfered to another squadron to take over as deputy commander (later as commander) the commander knew the two knucklheads responsible and threw the letter out.  He checked on it and it never went past the squadron.  Basically they were trying to get rid of me.

Sounds to me like you've got a power hungry commander that doesn't want to spend time with a new member to get him (you) squared away.  But then again, I'm only hearing one side of the story.

[O-Rex]

LOR's in CAP for seniors at the squadron level are kind of a joke anyway: IMHO, a member either tows the line or they don't.  If they don't, then you put them where they might do some good, or cordially invite them to do something else with their spare time.

CC's are normally given wide latitude regarding adverse action: If the member really commits a heinous deed, you transfer, suspend, take shoulder-bling, or 2B.  Per our recent history, a CC at any level who's heavy-handed in frivolous dismissal of members may himself or herself meet the same fate.

If their performance in a position is substandard, you move/replace and/or "bench" them (never underestimate the power of unofficial action.)

With few exceptions, If one needs to 'build a case' against a member, I would question circumstances and motive.  Usually a simple matter-of-fact sit down will bring the desired result. If not, see above.

I tend to coach more than hammer: in our organization, effective leaders/potential-leaders and even dependable do-bees are hard to find (not to mention that you are not exactly paying your members enough to give them excessive grief.)  I'll try to salvage a member before I do something that would potentially impact their membership or alienate them.  Again, if all else fails, see above, but at least I can say I gave a member more than ample opportunity to do the right thing...

lvflyer: If your motives are virtuous, and your compass true, I daresay you will be vindicated.  Always remember that there are two cardinal rules to CAP membership:

1.   Maintain your sense of perspective-A fairly active member can get rank, more blingage than a banana-republic general and titles that rival that of European nobility in record-time: one day you may dress for a meeting, banquet or whatever, and be dazzled by the reflection in the mirror, and actually start believing the myth-DON'T!!  

2.   Work within an organization's framework-Most join CAP to be a part of something bigger than themselves: unfortunately some folks ARE too big for themselves.  They want CAP to fit their paradigm and not vice-versa.  Sure, many members bring acquired skills and experience to the table, but need to understand the inner workings of the organization, and how they can fit in before they set out to conquer the world.

If a member can't do (1.) above, you can bet that (2.) is pretty much a lost cause.  I've also seen some long-term successful members have a melt-down: you can fall into the trap at any time.  There's no 'safe period:' we must always be on our guard.

Back to your situation:  You were very vague as to what you are accused of: what exactly did you do or not do?  Did your CC give you any expectations regarding follow-up?  CAP guidance really isn't structured in this regard, but counseling, positive or otherwise and regardless of venue needs a follow-up and feedback action.  In a perfect world, it sets expectations for both parties, and would answer some questions you may have: how long is this 'reprimand' going to stay in your file, and what, if any sanctions are being or will be imposed on you.

Each unit in CAP has it's own unique culture and 'flavor:' are you a fit in your current squadron?  Are their goals and activities consistent with what you want to do?  From your perspective: does it have a sense of purpose and clear direction, or is it a personality-cult?

From a commander's perspective, a CC is usually under the gun: reports, reports and more reports, keeping hours on the aircraft, cadet activities, ES quals, and so on, ad nauseum, and usually with only the help of a relatively few active members.  Unfortunately, and not uncommon in our volunteer organization, forty percent of a commander's energies are tied up in managing personalities within the staff, i.e., keeping Billy and Bobby on opposite sided of the room lest they choke each other, refereeing e-mail wars, listening to non-productive/disruptive members vying for something they're probably not entitled to etc., etc.  Personally, sometimes I feel like the parent driving the station wagon on the family trip ("don't make me turn this car around!')  That's just the nature of the beast: there's the CAP you want, and the CAP you've got, and you work with what's available.  But when a member's baggage exceeds their contribution, it's time for a 'heart-to-heart.'  Whether your commander is a budding "Stormin-Norman" or a total dud, in assessing your personal situation and your commander's perspective, keep all this in mind.

Think it over, ask the right questions, and always keep your head about you (especially when those around you are losing theirs) and you'll find your way. 

[Gunner C]

BTDT. My suggestion would be to talk to the Wing Chief of Staff (if you have one), or the Wing CC. If you can't take it up the chain as far as unit and group, go to the next echelon. Being "fairly new", you obviously have a lot of questions so you will learn how it's done. If you can't get answers, you may have incompetent command structure. It's becoming more and more common, so don't feel alone. The same thing has happened to me, with no record of anyone ever talking to me (yes, I did ask to see a copy of the "record" but never got it). Things like this discourage some people from renewing. My experience definitely had me doubting my future with CAP. But once I stepped back and looked at my situation, I realized that it was in my best interest to leave the unit that I was in, and go somewhere else where the members could get as much attention as they needed to get off the ground. That's just my suggestion though.

Having been one (a chief of staff), don't go to him/her.  They are staff officers, not in the chain of command.

Be respectful in your dealings; get as active as you can.  Be cheerful and helpful.  Make sure you use correct customs & courtesies.  IOW, be a bright spot on the horizon.  Those at group and wing will begin to notice.  You will outlast the LOR.  (BTW, I got one of those in the RM - I framed it and hung it on the wall: I still have it.  I kept it as a badge of honor. I got it for doing the honest honorable thing in the face of Baloney Stuffing.)   

Hang in there.  Just like a kidney stone, "This, too, shall pass."

GC

[SDF_Specialist]

BTDT. My suggestion would be to talk to the Wing Chief of Staff (if you have one), or the Wing CC. If you can't take it up the chain as far as unit and group, go to the next echelon. Being "fairly new", you obviously have a lot of questions so you will learn how it's done. If you can't get answers, you may have incompetent command structure. It's becoming more and more common, so don't feel alone. The same thing has happened to me, with no record of anyone ever talking to me (yes, I did ask to see a copy of the "record" but never got it). Things like this discourage some people from renewing. My experience definitely had me doubting my future with CAP. But once I stepped back and looked at my situation, I realized that it was in my best interest to leave the unit that I was in, and go somewhere else where the members could get as much attention as they needed to get off the ground. That's just my suggestion though.

Having been one (a chief of staff), don't go to him/her.  They are staff officers, not in the chain of command.

Be respectful in your dealings; get as active as you can.  Be cheerful and helpful.  Make sure you use correct customs & courtesies.  IOW, be a bright spot on the horizon.  Those at group and wing will begin to notice.  You will outlast the LOR.  (BTW, I got one of those in the RM - I framed it and hung it on the wall: I still have it.  I kept it as a badge of honor. I got it for doing the honest honorable thing in the face of Baloney Stuffing.)   

Hang in there.  Just like a kidney stone, "This, too, shall pass."

GC

They may not be in the chain of command, but when they demand to be a part of the command decision making process (and in some cases out rank you), what choice do you have? It will pass. The only unfortunate problem is that some of the newer members who get them may get discouraged. But just like Hawk said, the kidney stone will pass. So will the LOR

[Gunner C]

But just like Hawk said, the kidney stone will pass. So will the LOR

Statistically, he'll probably outlast his commander. . .

Hang in there.  If you love CAP as much as the rest of us, you'll do fine and come through this better than before.

GC

[lvflyer]

Unfortunately after reading the letter of reprimand again I understand why my repoire with Wing Staff has been stifled.  In the letter it states that Wing has been notified along with Group.  This isn't going to go away without appealing higher.  Now my promotion will be held up even though it is past due.  This is getting ugly fast and if anyone reads this who is a party I won't fair well.  I will say this, if I have to go it will be with a bang, clearing the way for those behind me.  There is no reason that a new member should be subject to this.

[lordmonar]

Rule 1....don't piss off the boss.

Rule 2....see rule 1.

So you got an LOR and wing and group know about it.

You got two options (well....three...I'll get to that later).

1.  You can take the LOR as a learning experince....be nice, play nice and wait out this crisis....when your CC is ready to sign your promotion order....it will go through no matter what he told wing and group.......IF you don't make your self a pain in any one's forth point of contact.

2.  You can fight it.  Write a rebuttal letter...have it included with your LOR in your records and send a copy everyone at wing and group who know/saw your LOR.  You follow the chain of command and/or make an IG complaint.

Option 1 works 90% of the time.  Option 2 runs the risk of making things worse.  If the LOR has anything that is derogatory and true...even if it is take out of context you only hand the "opposition" ammunition to do something more drastic.

Even if you win....you lose, because you still have to live in the same squadron and will have to be on the defensive of ever stepping out of line enough for your commander to get revenge (assuming he is one of those types of guys).

Your third option is to just quit and/or transfer.  Not wanting to advocate that option...but it is always out there....if working in our organization is too stressful, take a brake or look for another squadron.   Remember not every squadron is just like yours.

[jb512]

Knowing nothing of the situation, and only hearing your side, I'd have to think that you might actually be in the wrong.  I can understand if one commander was tainted and you couldn't get along with him/her, but if you're getting nothing from group or wing then you might want to take a look at what you're doing.

I want to dissect your original post, which I think contains the answers:

"Since I joined it has been difficult getting the correct answers to my questions so I tend to be persistent in my quest for answers."

That can be a good thing at the right times, but it doesn't sound like that approach is working in this case.  You might want to try getting answers from the tons of manuals, pamphlets, regulations, and other CAP publications.

"My squadron commander just wrote everythingthing that he has ever talked to me about in a "letter of reprimand" for my file.  Any research I have done tells me that a letter of reprimand is for repeat offenders and those that will not take instruction."

Doesn't sound like this was just a one time thing.  It sounds like you may have gone over the line quite a few times and this LOR is the first step in the commander documenting it so he/she can take action if it comes to that point.

"I understand the Group Commander was the motivator in having this placed in my file so it is difficult for me to appeal up the chain."

This is the sentence that lead me to this conclusion.  The odds are not usually good that two people in the chain of command are out to get you for no reason.  From experience, it sounds like your commander got fed up, called his commander, and that was the course of action they came up with.  If the behavior continues, then they'll have a paper trail to take stronger action.

I'm no expert, and don't have anything to go on other than your post and my experience.  My gut feeling is to say that you may be in the wrong.  Take it for what it's worth... free advice.

[SARMedTech]

The one thing that worries me here in terms of how your actions in this situation may be more than meets the eye (ie more than you have shared or care to share in a public forum) is your statement that you "tend to be persistent" in your "quest for answers." To me, and of course I know nothing more than anyone else outside of your situation about what has happened, this has the ring of Mom saying no so you went to ask Dad.

I don't blame you for not wanting to air the details of your dirty laundry here on CAPTalk, but if it was an issue of you thinking you were entitled to  a certain piece of bling, or you believing that your promotion was being held up do to some personal grievance with your CO outside of this current issue and you went over his head to the next link up in the chain, you might have a situation where your commander might be justified in placing a LOR in your jacket for jumping the chain.

While I don't ever think anyone should back down when accused of doing something that they did not do or shrink from a fight which is a p***ing contest for its own sake, if your Sqdn Commander bucked this LOR all the way to Wing, like Jaybird, it tends to sound to me like you may have  stepped on someone's toes in terms of a regulation violation or the like and now are unhappy with how it turned out.

Remember, when it comes to a stare down, and the other person in the battle is up the chain, they will almost always win, especially if they have the support of those who are even further up the chain.

[Duke Dillio]

Not knowing any of the true details in the matter, I would have to say that I can't really comment.

I can say that in 16 years of service, I have never seen an LOR in anyone's file.  I have only once seen a member put through the process of 2B.  This was a cadet who transferred from one squadron to mine.  When he left his squadron, he was a C/SSGT.  When he arrived at my unit, he was wearing 2d Lt boards and his Mitchell arrived shortly after.  My CC called foul and contacted the previous commander.  The 2B was initiated in which the group CC decided to give the poor soul a second chance.  He had to earn all of the ranks from SSG to 2LT.  He had one month to earn each level.  He also had to give the squadron a class on ethics.  All was going well until his Earhart arrived one month later.....

Some people just don't learn.  I have no idea why your commander LOR'd you but it seems rather petty to me in any circumstance unless he was getting ready to give you the boot.  In this case, I would think that a transfer might be your best option.

Just my .02.

[FW]

Not knowing any of the true details in the matter, I would have to say that I can't really comment.

Some people just don't learn.  I have no idea why your commander LOR'd you but it seems rather petty to me in any circumstance unless he was getting ready to give you the boot.  In this case, I would think that a transfer might be your best option.

It's been said the definition of insanity is, "doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. "  

I would seriously think about your actions before continuing this quest.  We all get tunnel vision at times and lose sight of what is going on with ourselves and others.

Step back, think about something else for a while and put all this in perspective.  There was no cut in pay, no food taken from off your table, no gas taken from your car.   The earth still rotates around the sun.....

[tribalelder]

Just saw this topic,so it's  too late to respond by IG complaint for false and misleading statement. 

This hopefully puts someone who is politically neutral in the mix and, while it doesn't make us all play nice, it does make us all play by the rules.  The prospect that this is retaliatory would get looked into.

[SDF_Specialist]

It would be nice to get someone who is a neutral thinker in the mix, but sometimes, that doesn't always work. If you get the letter, and don't want to take it up the chain, the leave it. No sense in kicking up the sand at the bottom of the lake.

[a2capt]

Since I joined it has been difficult getting the correct answers to my questions so I tend to be persistent in my quest for answers.

Sadly, this seems to be the case an awful lot. I learned to just stop asking and look at the regulations once I knew where to get them in current form. At the time I joined the web was not the all encompassing go to place as it was not uncommon for it to reference a link to the CAP bookstore as they had tons of paper copies and seemingly wanted to get rid of them, first.

But I too got what I interpreted as vague answers, fishy and conflicting answers from the same people in that I mean, you ask and get told one thing and you observe something else. (Do as I say, not as I do)

Many times regulations are 'bent' because 'they' (the unit leaders) have just been doing whatever 'this way' since before the Wright Brothers put baseball cards in the spokes and no one has ever questioned it. Then along comes someone who inquires and that inquiry is interpreted the wrong way, as you are trying to muscle your way in ..

I can say that nothing ever resulted in a letter of reprimand, but it certainly made for a very challenging beginning. I admit, I like a definitive answer to a question and when I feel that I am not getting it, I check and verify what I was told.

Especially in the beginning, you look up to the leaders as mentors and guides.

But I can closely relate to your issues.

As for advice? I don't know if you are entitled to place a rebuttal in your file as well, perhaps doing so, if you are entitled to - would only cause more rift. Maybe sit back for a while, participate a little more outside the unit as well as within, like SAREX opportunities, training offered at other area units, outings, etc. Radio classes.. 

Try a little easier, more experienced approach..

As for training and what not, you will find that you have to participate both within and outside of the home unit level to get the most out of CAP.

CAP has some wonderful resources and opportunities. I do have to say that while I have experienced bits of what you describe, I have still been very grateful for the friends I've made and the experiences I have gotten out of CAP.