People with disabilities serving with CAP

Started by mynetdude, February 09, 2008, 04:16:29 AM

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mynetdude

Ok you know what, I'm bored and I wanted a spin of topic....  I realize this could be a sticky topic as some could get offended or not feel comfortable so if you are not comfortable about it please don't post, I perfectly understand.

And to define what I am asking for is:

People who were born with a disability such as hearing, vision, walking/orthepedic issues.  I realize there are a large number of older CAP members who have disabilities from injury or from aging (and I hope you don't take offense because I just called you OLD!).

I was born deaf/blind as I grew up I learned how to vastly use what residual hearing/vision I had and because I was very young it made it possible for my brain/body to learn/adjust how to do it all, as they say the older you get the harder it is to heal because your body doesn't rebuild itself as it did when you were 5-10 years old.

Of course I am almost 30 years old, things are sliding the other way now, I'm losing incredible vision in my right eye due to Glaucoma though I still see well enough to drive (for now, so if I scare you its ok I already scare a half dozen others).

Lets see, I have had a number of operations on my feet to correct some orthepedic issues so now walking/running is limited due to the constant pain (which is why I don't stand for more than 30 minutes if I can help it).  I also have a number hand/wrist issues (partially from using the computer, but all the complications of what I was born with doesn't exactly help either).

The reason I am asking is because I want to explore other ways I can support CAP in a way that can benefit myself and CAP at the same time.  There are a lot of things I can do and a lot of things I can't do (you may be surprised at what people have allowed me to do even though I kept telling them I couldn't see things from the air; which is why I don't respond to calls for a mission scanner even though I am qualified).

I have met others in my wing who wear hearing aids, but its not the same they are wearing hearing aids because of something that either happened to them later in life or they naturally cannot hear well. (BTW I do wear hearing aids and gawdy awful glasses :)).

Our squadron had someone inquire about joining, was mentally challenged (politically correct term) I don't know if he was accepted or not, but the squadron's senior staff had concerns they were not sure how he would fit in or if he could provide input to meet CAP goals. I don't know if they accepted him or not (or if they met with him even) I wasn't allowed to know about it so :).

If you're up to sharing it would be cool to know who is out there with similar challenges like me :)

Johnny Yuma

WIWAC there was a cadet in SDWG who was blind, had his GTM but ran radios mostly. I ran into him during IAWG's Winter Ranger's program in, what, 1988-89? It was the last year for the WR program.

A few years later I found out that he was able to get a Suoth Dakota concealed carry permit. Impressive yet Scary!
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

mynetdude

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on February 09, 2008, 04:47:08 AM
WIWAC there was a cadet in SDWG who was blind, had his GTM but ran radios mostly. I ran into him during IAWG's Winter Ranger's program in, what, 1988-89? It was the last year for the WR program.

A few years later I found out that he was able to get a Suoth Dakota concealed carry permit. Impressive yet Scary!

I have heard stories about cadets, I believe there was a cadet in ORWG who was in a wheelchair he did his one mile runs in the chair as if he were running.  I have a friend who did that when she went to school.

Now a blind person having a concealed carry permit is indeed scary, let alone legal liabilities THOUGH if you are responsible enough you know where to stay put; which is why I don't fly as MS/MO on actuals I'll go on training flights though because no lives are involved.

I do mostly radios, computers, assisting new members who just recently aquired GES/OPSEC in further training and ground work (driving vehicles, supervising cadets, etc).

Cool, this is gonna be a good topic :) I like this one.

Flying Pig

#3
I know several members with physical disabilities.  When I was a cadet, Lt. Col. Billie LeClair was in her 80's and was in a wheel chair.  She was a legend in Ca Wing.  I knew a cadet at encampment who was a dwarf, (sorry if thats not the right term)  I believe he went on to be an admin guy for the Forest Service.  I saw a cadet at a Conference many years ago who was missing her right arm.  She saluted with her left.  Really, as long as someone has the ability to care for themselves, and make responsible decisions, there is almost something for anyone. 

Major Carrales

John Rawls, the philosopher, says that we are all born "under a veil of ignorance."  Under that veil, we neither know our strengths and weaknesses...disabilities and propencities.  That being said, we are born without limits and our experiences and interactions come to be what defines our limits.

Those with disabilities can and do provide service to CAP and should be allowed to "define their own limits."

Deny an opportunity based on arbitrary belief or on the assumption that the disabled are "incapable," or worse "worthless," and a travesty and injustice has been committed.  I don't think that is what we are here for.  On the contrary, I think CAP can afford to include those willing and able to contribute.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

mikeylikey

#5
I was not going to post, but thought I would share some personal experiences.  

I know of a few individuals who had to get a waiver to join the military, because of an outdated and in my opinion hugely discriminatory policy.  According to the DOD, a person with (WITH) Cancer can not enlist or be commissioned.  One clause however stated that a child with a certain type of cancer (the type my friend had) waits long enough with no recurrence, he or she can apply for a waiver.  The time period to wait is five years with no local recurrence of the tumor.  This policy is unfair, and based on someones belief that all cancers are the same, and all cancers are debilitating.  That is not true. PERIOD.  To deny national service because a person HAD cancer and BEAT cancer twenty years ago is not only morally wrong, but ethically and socially unjust.  The men and women who have gone through Cancer treatments, in my mind, are the most brave and courageous people I know.  They have shown more personal courage than every service member combined.  

Risking ones life (which I am prepared to do, as evidence by the oath of office I took), nowhere compares to the battles that these men and women diagnosed with any type of cancer have to go through.  The treatments alone usually are harsh enough and deadly enough to kill a healthy individual.  Throw in to the mix that a person with cancer is no longer considered healthy in terms of body function, the treatments are so sever that many would rather give up and die, but don't!  They keep pushing forward for the reward at the end of treatment.  That reward would be another day alive.  

Many people take for granted the lives they have.  They walk around complaining about "my parking space was taken", "I couldn't find four dollars for a starbucks this morning", "My boss yelled at me today".  Well, try to sit in a doctors office and have the doctor tell you that you have Cancer and the treatments will save your life, but will make you more sick, than the Cancer itself.  Try to sit through Radiation treatments as a beam of X-rays enters your skull and physically burns the inside of your mouth and throat so bad that the doctor says you can not eat because you now have first and second degree burns.  Try to sit through 2 years of Chemotherapy, each week going for treatment in the Hospital where the nurses administer cytotoxic and neo-ageoplastic drugs that kill all cells in your body.  Not very pleasant to think about is it?  Then imagine because you are taking the Chemotherapy drugs, that your white blood cells (the cells that fight off infection) are almost all killed each time you get the chemo.  What does that mean?  That means you have just become susceptible to dying (very quickly) from anything from the common cold to chicken pox to or a soar throat.  

Now lets say a person makes it through his or her Cancer treatments.  Now to some survivors this begins the most difficult part.  The life they had before the diagnosis of Cancer usually can not be had again.  Insurance carriers will no longer accept a cancer survivor on their policy, employees may even deny employment (but give another reason as to why) to survivors.  But guess what, the Federal Government will help the cancer fighter right?  WRONG.  Once your treatments are over, Social Security will immediately stop any disability payments under the guise that "you will be able to go back to work now".  You are no longer eligible for any State run health insurance either.  

When word gets out that you "had Cancer", people will make it a point to stay away from you.  Those who you thought were your friends will slowly stop calling you, and emails will stop altogether.  Christmas cards will go un-answered, and some may even walk right by you without saying hello.  Cancer today is what AIDS was like in the 1980's.

Now the Federal Government "says we are waging a war on cancer".  They are not.  There are no Cancer Patients bill of rights, outdated insurance and COBRA laws have not been changed to reflect the changes in cancer treatment in almost 2 decades.  

The battles Cancer patients fight are harder than any battle on the streets of Mosul, or Baghdad.  If you get shot on a Baghdad street, you know a fellow soldier or medic will do his or her best to save your life.  If you have cancer, you have no idea which doctors will do the best, what planning needs to take place, or who will pay for it.  It is so sad to see individuals die from Cancer because they either had no insurance, or no money.  

Cancer is estimated to inflict ONE out of every TWO individuals by 2020.  That is astronomical!  That means if you are reading this, you have a fifty-fifty chance of developing some type of Cancer.  Just something for you to think about.

In closing, I would like to make a few things crystal.  First, Cancer is not a life long debilitating disease.  Those who successfully treated their cancer and are considered cured, should have every opportunity to serve in the military almost as though they never had cancer.  Second, Cancer is a disability at discovery and during treatments, but it gives the survivor a new outlook on life once treatments are completed.  Third, Any individual with cancer or following cancer treatment should be permitted to enlist in the Armed Forces of Our Country.  Having cancer and even living with the cancer may not even be noticeable.  We need all the help we can get in this war!  

If a person with Cancer wishes to join my CAP SQD, I would not only welcome him or her, but would accommodate the person as best as I could.  If that means making specail arrangements or whatnot, I would be the first person to do it.  

I hate to get off topic, and belittle the original posters ideas, but Cancer is far more serious than carpal tunnel syndrome, or asthma, or poor vision.  You may loose your eyesite (and that would be a huge and terrible thing to happen to anyone), but what cancer takes away is just a little more serious.  LIFE.

If anyone is till reading this, I too had cancer, and to stay in the service I have to get medical waivers.  I know exactly how people treat a person with cancer, how people stare at you, how society as a whole says "he must have done something wrong to get cancer".  Let me tell you, I am neither a smoker-drinker or any drug user.  I am really physically active and am within weight guidelines.  Cancer will sneak up behind you and attack without warning.  It is the most vicious of terrorist type diseases.

I would welcome the day when any citizen with Cancer, or completely cured can sign up for service and there won't even be a "have you had a tumor" box on the medical forms.

I bring this discussion up because five years ago there was a woman who desired to join a CAP Squadron in PAWG.  The unit Commander sent her away on the basis that becuase she had Cancer, she could not participate in flying activities or be a member of the ground team.  She took it to her lawyer, and before anything could come of it, NHQ stepped in and told her she could in fact join the local unit.  However by that time she was not interested in joining a local program run by bigots and incompetent individuals.  You know what, she has since gone on to be a major fund-raiser for the USO out of Washington DC because of her connections with major corporations.  To think, we could have had her help, but instead because of one misguided Squadron Commander (who later quit because there were money management issues in the SQD) we lost out huge. 

   

What's up monkeys?

RogueLeader

For those that have medical "issues".  Do not be afraid to join CAP.  While there may be a few things that you can't do, we will do what we can to help you as far as we can take you.  To the units that have people with issues coming in:  do not be afraid to take them in.  Give them a job to do that they can handle. 

CAP is here for SERVICE, and most all* are welcome to join in.  Truly, in our early history, it was the ones with "issues" that got us our start.  It was the young, old, and unfit for military duty that gave us life.  all the fit members were EXPECTED to join up- they HAD to.  Why in the world that we would turn down a member due to things that we can't always control, I'll never know.  I seem to remember a Volunteer artical about a blind Cadet that went through HAWK twice.


*Please note that all convicted child molesters, and most felons are barred from membership.
WYWG DA DP

GRW 3340

Pylon

Here's the deal with all Civil Air Patrol volunteers.

Commander's should match individuals with duties that suit their abilities.  There it is.  I'll say it again, because it really is that important.  Commander's should match individuals with duties that suit their abilities.

You never set anybody up for failure.  You find what suits them best and you make it work.

2d Lt Smith has a hard time with his vision and reading clearly.  Would you really assign him to be in charge of personnel records?  Probably not; but once you discover his leadership background, he might be the best dern CP officer your squadron has had.

1st Lt Jones is not good at interacting with other pople.  She is shy, mumbles sometimes, and gets social anxiety.  Would you make her your PAO?  Probably not; but perhaps her attention to detail might make her the best Personnel and admin officer you've ever had.

SMwoG Doe is a pilot.  He meets the minimum requirements for cadet o-flights and passed his last check ride despite his increasing age, increasing difficulty with vision and the occasional shakes episode.  Doe loves to work with Cadets and has regularly given O-Flights for years.  Doe meets the official criteria to serve as an O-Flight pilot, but you don't want to alienate this member from what he loves to do.  Perhaps you consider him for your Aerospace Education officer, so he can continue to share his knowledge of aviation with the youth with which he enjoys working.

To diverge from the CAP example model:  We have people with developmental disabilities working at our office.  One of them does records keeping type stuff (filing, shredding, copying, labeling, re-arranging, etc.) certainly better than I could do it.  He'd be a great fit for a CAP squadron to get their records, forms and files reorganized, but would not be a good candidate for AEO or LO.

In other words, every single CAP member has different abilities.  You find their strengths, you poll their interests and as a commander you make the best decision to match those strengths and interests with the needs of the squadron.  It's as simple as that.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

LittleIronPilot

Why not? Just match their abilities, or lack thereof, with a job.

Can a blind person fly? Nope....but they CAN learn to operate radios.

Can someone in a wheelchair become a GTM? Nope, but they can do a LOT of staff jobs.

Well you get the point.

One thing I will say....unless the waiver is carefully weighed, rules/requirements should NOT be bent to allow a member to do/become something they cannot.

Thus I have a hard time understanding how a blind person can get GTM since they cannot see the compass!

mynetdude

I'm not saying anyone with medical or physical disabilities should not join or be denied the opportunity to join.  Mikey is right my vision and hearing is nothing absolutely nothing compared to Cancer.  Cancer ratios are very high in this country, it has been thought several people in my family had cancer but then they were false alarms (though they could have been though).

Mikey had a great post although off topic, I'm not saying we people with physical/mental/medical issues should be bound by our strict limits, but its true there are areas where we don't do well.  Like with the fact that I will never do certain things because they make me uncomfortable or I just know it is not possible to do which is fine with me! :) I do IT, Logistics and Personnel, I am just looking for other ways to externally support CAP outside my squadron someday.

I've been looking at WA state GSAR, NBB and such as that, I haven't talked to enough people about going to those things yet.  Point is, I just made the post because I wanted to see what kind of variety of people with physical challenges serving because I know they can do it (the question isn't their abilities or whether they are a grave concern, etc the question is how to best fit them and that is easy to do by knowing their stregnths).

I have successfully become the successor to our previous LG/IT/Personnel officer who served more than 20 years in CAP, I never dreamed of doing such thing and we are still in communication with each other and he is happy as such.

And honestly people who have gone through cancer and survive it as mikey said have gone through the worst possible have more tremendous courage to get past their barriers you can't always tell they were a cancer patient after they've been doing much better given time after their last treatment you'd never know it until they revealed it so judging by looks is a bad apple for you.

All that counts is I like doing what I do in my squadron/CAP and I get to do something, again I was looking to see what other opportunities people with physical challenges have taken up and what kind of accomodations they have been offered.

It is against the federal law to discriminiate and according to the regs CAP is a non discriminary organization so we can't discriminate just because you might not have one feet or both arms, etc because these people are very well capable of doing something about serving their country.  Of course if they are unable to provide input into CAP then that is another topic which is why the military does not recruit people with most physical limitations (amoungst other reasons). It would be unfair to everybody if they hired someone who could only see 20/60 and trying to fire a machine gun that person could very well be a haphazard ;)

Child molesters and felons are not a mental/medical condition, those are criminal anti social acts... they need not apply.

It took me a long time to join CAP many years before I moved back to my hometown in Oregon because I was afraid of the "normal" people (this reflects my experience I had in boy scouts, and I realize CAP is nothing like the boy scouts).  I'm sure the Boy Scouts have changed since the late 80s/early 90s.  But many (not all) typically have worries such as myself (and I still do sometimes, which is why I never go anywhere unless my squadron does at least for now).

If I can walk, drive, talk, type there is enough for me to do to keep me happy as long as everybody else likes me I have no complaints.  Would I like a bit more? Possibly, but do I ask for a bit more? No because it would be unfair (I'm referring to the difficulty hearing at staff meetings and general meetings, some classroom training etc).  As long as I understand what is needed and can get the job done I don't need more than what I've been given :)

mynetdude

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on February 09, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Why not? Just match their abilities, or lack thereof, with a job.

Can a blind person fly? Nope....but they CAN learn to operate radios.

Can someone in a wheelchair become a GTM? Nope, but they can do a LOT of staff jobs.

Well you get the point.

One thing I will say....unless the waiver is carefully weighed, rules/requirements should NOT be bent to allow a member to do/become something they cannot.

Thus I have a hard time understanding how a blind person can get GTM since they cannot see the compass!

You might be surprised at what they can "see" with their ears.  They don't need to see the compass, today's technology is so widely advanced I'm pretty sure there are talking compasses out there; I haven't seen one myself but I don't think that feat is impossible, it is VERY likely).

There are talking wallets, calculators, GPS, there are a lot of equipment available to a blind person including a device they wear hung over their shoulder (looks like a camera box) centered over their chest, when they walk it senses objects in their paths and gives them an audible alert to indicate how close they are reaching that object.

I'm not berating on you or bashing you, but this is exactly the kind of assumption people need to be careful of, if you make the wrong assumption you could scare away a lot of people (or they would be happy to beat it out of you :P).

I am not completely blind so some of the things I need/have used do not always relate to a completely blind person.  There are screen reader programs out there, I don't know exactly what all it is capable of reading but I would imagine a screen reader could read the IMU software back to the blind person they could completely run the IMU and the radios with the feedback of a screen reader (even if it means a human doing the reading for them).

I don't think this blind GTM got a waiver, he found a way (probably a braile compass at the time), there are braile watches so that is even more likely than a talking compass.  you know I'd love to go out on Mission Observer, but it would be difficult reading all the small LCD screens of the radios and GPS maybe they should give me a waiver? I don't think so.

Cecil DP

When I was in MAWG we had a totally blind LtCol who was the Communications Officer for the Brockton Cadet Squadron.  He also served as  Net Control Officer and at one point the Assistant Wing Comm O. Only problem we had was tripping over his seeing eye
dog. 
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

mynetdude

Quote from: Cecil DP on February 10, 2008, 12:56:55 PM
When I was in MAWG we had a totally blind LtCol who was the Communications Officer for the Brockton Cadet Squadron.  He also served as  Net Control Officer and at one point the Assistant Wing Comm O. Only problem we had was tripping over his seeing eye
dog. 

*chuckles* that does happen (the seeing eye dog) though the dogs/blind persons are supposed to be trained to keep the dog out of your foot's path but thats another topic.  I have met a couple of blind people who have seeing eye dogs and guide dog trainers so I've gotten to see both ends first rate.

Blind people are usually excellent communicators, their ears work hard for what they can't see.  I'm both hard of hearing/deaf and visually impaired (border line legally blind) so I am not good at either! haha but I do good at what I do thats what counts.

LittleIronPilot

Quote from: mynetdude on February 09, 2008, 03:56:35 PM
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on February 09, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Why not? Just match their abilities, or lack thereof, with a job.

Can a blind person fly? Nope....but they CAN learn to operate radios.

Can someone in a wheelchair become a GTM? Nope, but they can do a LOT of staff jobs.

Well you get the point.

One thing I will say....unless the waiver is carefully weighed, rules/requirements should NOT be bent to allow a member to do/become something they cannot.

Thus I have a hard time understanding how a blind person can get GTM since they cannot see the compass!

You might be surprised at what they can "see" with their ears.  They don't need to see the compass, today's technology is so widely advanced I'm pretty sure there are talking compasses out there; I haven't seen one myself but I don't think that feat is impossible, it is VERY likely).

There are talking wallets, calculators, GPS, there are a lot of equipment available to a blind person including a device they wear hung over their shoulder (looks like a camera box) centered over their chest, when they walk it senses objects in their paths and gives them an audible alert to indicate how close they are reaching that object.

I'm not berating on you or bashing you, but this is exactly the kind of assumption people need to be careful of, if you make the wrong assumption you could scare away a lot of people (or they would be happy to beat it out of you :P).

I am not completely blind so some of the things I need/have used do not always relate to a completely blind person.  There are screen reader programs out there, I don't know exactly what all it is capable of reading but I would imagine a screen reader could read the IMU software back to the blind person they could completely run the IMU and the radios with the feedback of a screen reader (even if it means a human doing the reading for them).

I don't think this blind GTM got a waiver, he found a way (probably a braile compass at the time), there are braile watches so that is even more likely than a talking compass.  you know I'd love to go out on Mission Observer, but it would be difficult reading all the small LCD screens of the radios and GPS maybe they should give me a waiver? I don't think so.

And when the talking compass sends them into a tree? Or over a cliff?

I am sorry...but CAP GTM SAR missions are no place for trying to make someone "feel good" about their disability. Callous and cruel I am sure to some, but a harsh reality.

Again...I am ALL for allowing someone to serve at whatever capacity they can...but I do not support bending rules to support them outside of their capability.

Mission first, then we can worry about the rest.

arajca


MIKE

I am a disabled, or differently-abled if you prefer, CAP member.  I feel my membership has provided more opportunities than roadblocks... fortunately for me I don't tend to require much in the area of accommodation that hasn't already been accounted for by the folks at NHQ... though I do wish more CAP vans had running boards installed.  :)
Mike Johnston

Johnny Yuma

I don't think this topic was ever about whether or not those with handicaps should or shouldn't be in, the question was what role they can play in the organization.

IMHO: Let them join, round peg to round hole and make it work. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I've seen dozens of member's I'd nonrenew or 2b but only 1 of those had a handicap. Anyone who was at the NCR encampments in 2001 and 2002 held at Camp Dodge, IA knows exactly who I'm talking about.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

LtCol White

Quote from: Pylon on February 09, 2008, 09:03:13 AM
Here's the deal with all Civil Air Patrol volunteers.

Commander's should match individuals with duties that suit their abilities.  There it is.  I'll say it again, because it really is that important.  Commander's should match individuals with duties that suit their abilities.

You never set anybody up for failure.  You find what suits them best and you make it work.

2d Lt Smith has a hard time with his vision and reading clearly.  Would you really assign him to be in charge of personnel records?  Probably not; but once you discover his leadership background, he might be the best dern CP officer your squadron has had.

1st Lt Jones is not good at interacting with other pople.  She is shy, mumbles sometimes, and gets social anxiety.  Would you make her your PAO?  Probably not; but perhaps her attention to detail might make her the best Personnel and admin officer you've ever had.

SMwoG Doe is a pilot.  He meets the minimum requirements for cadet o-flights and passed his last check ride despite his increasing age, increasing difficulty with vision and the occasional shakes episode.  Doe loves to work with Cadets and has regularly given O-Flights for years.  Doe meets the official criteria to serve as an O-Flight pilot, but you don't want to alienate this member from what he loves to do.  Perhaps you consider him for your Aerospace Education officer, so he can continue to share his knowledge of aviation with the youth with which he enjoys working.

To diverge from the CAP example model:  We have people with developmental disabilities working at our office.  One of them does records keeping type stuff (filing, shredding, copying, labeling, re-arranging, etc.) certainly better than I could do it.  He'd be a great fit for a CAP squadron to get their records, forms and files reorganized, but would not be a good candidate for AEO or LO.

In other words, every single CAP member has different abilities.  You find their strengths, you poll their interests and as a commander you make the best decision to match those strengths and interests with the needs of the squadron.  It's as simple as that.

Very well said Mike.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

mynetdude

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on February 10, 2008, 09:36:31 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on February 09, 2008, 03:56:35 PM
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on February 09, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Why not? Just match their abilities, or lack thereof, with a job.

Can a blind person fly? Nope....but they CAN learn to operate radios.

Can someone in a wheelchair become a GTM? Nope, but they can do a LOT of staff jobs.

Well you get the point.

One thing I will say....unless the waiver is carefully weighed, rules/requirements should NOT be bent to allow a member to do/become something they cannot.

Thus I have a hard time understanding how a blind person can get GTM since they cannot see the compass!

You might be surprised at what they can "see" with their ears.  They don't need to see the compass, today's technology is so widely advanced I'm pretty sure there are talking compasses out there; I haven't seen one myself but I don't think that feat is impossible, it is VERY likely).

There are talking wallets, calculators, GPS, there are a lot of equipment available to a blind person including a device they wear hung over their shoulder (looks like a camera box) centered over their chest, when they walk it senses objects in their paths and gives them an audible alert to indicate how close they are reaching that object.

I'm not berating on you or bashing you, but this is exactly the kind of assumption people need to be careful of, if you make the wrong assumption you could scare away a lot of people (or they would be happy to beat it out of you :P).

I am not completely blind so some of the things I need/have used do not always relate to a completely blind person.  There are screen reader programs out there, I don't know exactly what all it is capable of reading but I would imagine a screen reader could read the IMU software back to the blind person they could completely run the IMU and the radios with the feedback of a screen reader (even if it means a human doing the reading for them).

I don't think this blind GTM got a waiver, he found a way (probably a braile compass at the time), there are braile watches so that is even more likely than a talking compass.  you know I'd love to go out on Mission Observer, but it would be difficult reading all the small LCD screens of the radios and GPS maybe they should give me a waiver? I don't think so.

And when the talking compass sends them into a tree? Or over a cliff?

I am sorry...but CAP GTM SAR missions are no place for trying to make someone "feel good" about their disability. Callous and cruel I am sure to some, but a harsh reality.

Again...I am ALL for allowing someone to serve at whatever capacity they can...but I do not support bending rules to support them outside of their capability.

Mission first, then we can worry about the rest.


I agree with you, I'm not disagreeing that we should bend the rules.  I did mention that blind people can use various devices not limited to using a cane, guide dog and an electronic distance/object sensing equipment (though this doesn't help if you're about to go over a cliff unfortunately).  A combination of any of those devices can mitigate some of these issues (it does NOT eliminate them however).

mynetdude

Quote from: arajca on February 10, 2008, 10:20:26 PM
Two words:
Reasonable Accomodation.

Reasonable accomodations is a huge subject all by itself... not going there. I don't remember the reg number to show you what it says but along with reasonable accomodations it has to be something that does not cause undue financial hardship upon the squadron (I could start with our bathrooms, as they are not up to ADA standards) now tell me... how much is that going to cost to redesign the bathroom to accomodate a wheelchair person in the toilet stalls? That would be undue financial hardship to the squadron so therefore they don't have to meet those requirements.

I'm not in a wheelchair, but I do like to be considerate of everybody who might come into our squadron.  What would be another reasonable accomodation? Send them down to the FBO next door, thats a bit aways from the hangar (short walking distance of course).