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Author Topic: Aircraft tires  (Read 3279 times)
Donald
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« on: December 14, 2007, 01:52:19 AM »

I was a pilot in Greenland in 1958-59. The planes were equipped with tires which had metal wire extended in the tread so they could get a hold of the runway with ice on it which was 10 months a year. CAP aircraft have tires which are made for dry runways and can have the problem of running off the runway on landing or take off. I would like to suggest that all aircraft which are assigned to CAP squadrons in areas which have snow and ice to switch to the above metal wire extruded type of tire for safety. Planes are expensive and pilots are not replaceable if they get killed on a mission where there is a possibility of ice on the runway.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 02:47:47 AM »

^ That is a good suggestion, but would that not damage runways?  I mean, I would be all for the safety factor, but I would assume there are guidelines restricting such practice, or else commercial airports would not spend so much on ice removal during winter months. 

I could only imagine Alaska to be the only state that ould permit such a practice. 

Heck, I can't even put snow tires on for 7 more days.  And we have had like 3 days of Ice storms.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 03:00:04 AM »

And if not runways, certainly the shiny painted floors of a lot of hangers - that's a quick way to lose a coveted free space.

Also, for the majority of the country, weather / landing conditions which would benefit from such tires would probably exceed most ORM tolerances and preclude flying anyway.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 07:46:54 AM »

Not to mention the added cost of those tires. Our budgets are tight enough as it is, without adding higher cost parts of marginal value.
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Dave Bowles
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Donald
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 12:37:04 PM »

Well CAP I know is a search and rescue as one of their missions. What if it is sunny but the runways needed to land and refuel are ice coated and taking in the cost of the aircraft and the lives of three people in the aircraft along with the lives of the people being sought. What is that cost?? These tires do not damage the runway along with only using them in situations when the snow and ice season. Also how many areas have the ice and snow problem in the winter another question. I fell that lives are more important than money and some savings will be lives not uniform changes and many other things can be reduced since we are all volunteer's with out pay. Think of that CAP directors.
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jeders
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 04:30:29 PM »

If it's sunny and there's ice on the runway that the airport maintenance people can't get off in short order, then there will probably be ice on my wings when I go flying. Therefore, flying is out of the question anyways because of ORM. That's why we have ground teams, to go out look for things when the lovely airplanes can't fly.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »

Well CAP I know is a search and rescue as one of their missions. What if it is sunny but the runways needed to land and refuel are ice coated and taking in the cost of the aircraft and the lives of three people in the aircraft along with the lives of the people being sought. What is that cost?? These tires do not damage the runway along with only using them in situations when the snow and ice season. Also how many areas have the ice and snow problem in the winter another question. I fell that lives are more important than money and some savings will be lives not uniform changes and many other things can be reduced since we are all volunteer's with out pay. Think of that CAP directors.

The lives of our memebrs are important, which is why ORM would prevent aircrews from operating in conditions you describe -- or landing at an unmaintained airport with such conditions.  Even during an actual SAR mission, our people don't put their lives intentionally in danger's way.  There are other ways to get to the target without endangering lives.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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Donald
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 04:46:33 PM »

You are right about other ways to get to the target. The whole idea was to put better tires on our aircraft for the unexpected conditions. If you are a pilot you know even when you get a weather go with 10 mile visability you can get the weather to change in the 4 to 6 hours you are up there. So the possibility of a secondary airport required to land in bad weather and 30 minutes of fuel can come into respective situation even if you turn around. I have had that type of situation and I only wish to have our planes up to all situations in winter situations. I love to fly and I am now 73 years old and startede to fly when I was 16 so I have seen some weather and had very little instruments in the old days. :)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 05:48:38 PM »

You are right about other ways to get to the target. The whole idea was to put better tires on our aircraft for the unexpected conditions. If you are a pilot you know even when you get a weather go with 10 mile visability you can get the weather to change in the 4 to 6 hours you are up there. So the possibility of a secondary airport required to land in bad weather and 30 minutes of fuel can come into respective situation even if you turn around. I have had that type of situation and I only wish to have our planes up to all situations in winter situations. I love to fly and I am now 73 years old and startede to fly when I was 16 so I have seen some weather and had very little instruments in the old days. :)

Donald,

How familiar are you with CAP ES Operations?

Our pre-launch ORM takes all of what you have indicated and considers it before launch, CAP is very conservative when it comes to flight operations, and has we have indicated, in most areas of the country our airplanes would simply not be flying in those conditions.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 06:08:28 PM »

You are right about other ways to get to the target. The whole idea was to put better tires on our aircraft for the unexpected conditions. If you are a pilot you know even when you get a weather go with 10 mile visability you can get the weather to change in the 4 to 6 hours you are up there. So the possibility of a secondary airport required to land in bad weather and 30 minutes of fuel can come into respective situation even if you turn around. I have had that type of situation and I only wish to have our planes up to all situations in winter situations. I love to fly and I am now 73 years old and startede to fly when I was 16 so I have seen some weather and had very little instruments in the old days. :)

Donald,

How familiar are you with CAP ES Operations?

Our pre-launch ORM takes all of what you have indicated and considers it before launch, CAP is very conservative when it comes to flight operations, and has we have indicated, in most areas of the country our airplanes would simply not be flying in those conditions.

Agreed.  All the missions I've been on (~30) only 1 has had air support.  We don't fly in inclimate weather, nor should we.  There is no sense in putting the rescuers in a position where they need to be rescued.  I have never seen a CAP aircraft take off when there is the chance of snow, sleet, hail, thunderstorms, etc, nevermind when the airfield already has those pre-existing conditions.
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Donald
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2007, 07:13:00 PM »

I am familar with Emergency Services and qualified so the point is better tires. If you put out 300 dolars per aircraft in areas which are in snow areas how much do you think it would take for those areas. 500 planes possibly 150K of better tires changed when winter comes and then be safe all around. End of conversation.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2007, 07:30:41 PM »

This could be a great excercise in using the ORM Matrix.

Quote from: ORM Matrix

I is most severe, IV least severe.
A is high probability, D low.
1 is critical risk, 2 serious, 3 moderate, 4 minor and 5 negligible.

Potential Hazard: Plane accidents due to adverse weather conditions on the airfield (ie; snow, ice on runway).

Severity:  I would call this a II.
Probability: I would call this a V.  Only because we don't fly in adverse weather conditions, won't take off if the conditions of the runway are not suitable, etc.  Unlike Greenland where your runway is probably made of ice and snow.

So using my matrix, that puts our potential hazard as "minor." 

Now, we should look at our safety statistics.  How many accidents in CAP aircraft are attributed to poor runway conditions and if any, how many could have been prevented with these tires?  I would assume, none.

So, would I spend $150,000 for "snow tires" for our airplanes?  Probably not because the risk and probability isn't there.  If you need to divert to a snow covered grass strip, you probably have bigger problems than whether or not you have studs on your tires.

If I were to do a program like this, I would probably justify it on an exception basis, rather than the rule; ie: CAP planes in Alaska where the runways are snow and ice.
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SJFedor
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2007, 10:49:21 PM »

Even so, I've landed many times on snow covered and ice covered runways (non-CAP planes) without "special tires" without a bit of an issue. The only time it's truly hazardous is when A) you have a nasty crosswind, in which you shouldn't be attempting to land there, or B) it's a short field you need to get stopped on. If neither of these are a factor, it's not too big of a deal. It's more hazardous taxiing on ice and snow then actually landing on it. I watched a plane slowly slide down a taxiway on ice and very gently tap into a hangar. But, another story for another day.

Not only does the cost not make sense, but your plan doesn't either. Not only is it expensive to get them, but it's a PITA to change the tires a few times a year, because you *might* have to use them.

You're welcome to submit your suggestion upward to NHQ Operations, but you'll get a very similar response. The snow banks on sides of runways catching wings tends to cause more accidents then the actual runway condition.

As for our AKWG counterparts, first, we need to get more of their pilots on here. Second, if it was an issue up there, I'm sure they'd already have them in use. The fact that (I don't believe) they don't have them in use shows that the problem is either A) non-existant, or B) able to be safely mitigated.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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