Vanguard complaint

[SeattleSarge]

Guys and gals, just don't do business with the big V.  I've certainly had my share of issues:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2214.msg38759#msg38759

The Hock Shop is a first rate operation.  And.. you can get those leather name badges from other sources.  I just takes a bit of digging.

-SeattleSarge

[♠SARKID♠]

Guys and gals, just don't do business with the big V.  I've certainly had my share of issues:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2214.msg38759#msg38759

The Hock Shop is a first rate operation.  And.. you can get those leather name badges from other sources.  I just takes a bit of digging.

-SeattleSarge

But are they legal?  CAP has rule over the name "Civil Air Patrol" so technically nobody else can produce the badges without their consent.  As far as i know (and I dont know much so correct me if i'm wrong) those other source badges are a breach of copyright law.

[SarDragon]

Once again - there is NO copyright involved.

Further info:

CAP doesn't hold a trademark or copyright, per se, on its items. What it does have is this:

TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > Sec. 40306.
Sec. 40306. - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name ''Civil Air Patrol'' and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

CAP (the corporation) holds only two trademarks - CAPMART, and WHERE IMAGINATION TAKES FLIGHT. I have found no patents listed. Copyright information is too diverse and numerous for online cataloging.

[a2capt]

So thats it, they hold exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol", emblems, descriptive badges, etc.

Great. Hock gets a pass, 1-900-monikers gets the shaft. Still doesn't answer that.

Consistency would be nice.

the inconsistency needs to go. It needs to go back to the 'way it was'. Buy stuff from anywhere. Just like the rest of the services enjoy. Granted, we're an audience of 65,000, give or take a few, but with the amount of churn, (sadly, different topic), we have nearly as many start as leave, though a lot of this is also parents of graduating cadets, who were members too, etc. But .. none the less, several vendors saw it fit to take the time to offer various items we could utilize and along comes National HQ that couldn't get it right on their own, which probably allowed the aftermarket to flourish in the first place, and they foist the big V on us, and they are in many ways no better. Their road show leaves a lot to be desired, they use shipping as a profit center, they're not consistent and clear with their customers, they in effect treat us like the bastard stepchild they are forced to deal with.

OTOH, the Hock is a 'one man operation', and has it's drawbacks, but in as many ways is just as prominent as several other vendors, if not more so, and they got C&D'ed.

My main issue with the Hock Shop is not their ability to deliver, though that has been questioned a tad on this forum, but more so with some of their merchandise and it's consistency with what Vanguard, CAPMart and the bookstore used to send. Which has also been raised, here in this forum.

Maybe a letter writing campaign or such needs to be done to tell National HQ how much discontent, backed up by actual scenarios. We have several within our own ranks. Even the bookstore and CAPMart were not this inept.

[♠SARKID♠]

Hooray!  Vanguard did it agian!  They sent me my white aviator shirt!.......7 months after I ordered it!

[O-Rex]

The entire rest of the DoD does not hassle vendors. Why should CAP?

CAP is not part of DOD in this regard: as a federally chartered corp, they can hassle all they want. 

It's mostly just a scare tactic: you legally own a name when you copyright it.

For vendors, the relatively small market is not worth the hassle...

Nametape tip: some C&D victim companies don't "offer" nametapes, but they do make them if you specifically ask for them.  By law, you have the right to request just about whatever you want on personalized embroidery (refer to copyright reference above.)

Perhaps CAP's "strong-arm" approach to competitiors was due to prior leadership (?)

[SarDragon]

The entire rest of the DoD does not hassle vendors. Why should CAP?

CAP is not part of DOD in this regard: as a federally chartered corp, they can hassle all they want. 

It's mostly just a scare tactic: you legally own a name when you copyright it.

For vendors, the relatively small market is not worth the hassle...

Nametape tip: some C&D victim companies don't "offer" nametapes, but they do make them if you specifically ask for them.  By law, you have the right to request just about whatever you want on personalized embroidery (refer to copyright reference above.)

Perhaps CAP's "strong-arm" approach to competitiors was due to prior leadership (?)

I'm not going to try to straighten out the quotes above, but will attempt to address the commentary.

First of all, this is not, and never has been, a copyright issue. Copyrights cover such things a printed material, music, and software, among others. If anything, it is a trademark or service mark issue. As stated in a post above, and in at least one other thread, CAP's legal rights derive from Title 36 of the U.S. Code:

TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > Sec. 40306.
Sec. 40306. - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name ''Civil Air Patrol'' and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.
*****

CAP (the corporation) holds only two trademarks - CAPMART, and WHERE IMAGINATION TAKES FLIGHT. I have found no patents listed. Copyright information is too diverse and numerous for online cataloging.

Why The Hock gets a pass on this stuff, I don't know. They may somehow be grandfathered in on something. I do know that, legally, for any company to make CAP branded items, they require a license from CAP. Apparently none of the companies who got C&Ds didn't have a license. Maybe The Hock doe. I don't know.

[Cecil DP]

Vanguard has performed a miracle!!! 

I ordered several nametapes and nametags at about 11 pm Monday evening (10/22) and received them in the mail a few minutes ago. I guess the complaints about service are being heard.

[Psicorp]

Wow, no kidding that is a miracle, sir.  Either it's slow at Vanguard these days or they had some with the names in stock.   Two weeks has been the standard time frame for anything I've purchased through them, which I've always considered reasonable.   Way to go Vanguard!

[JC004]

Vanguard has performed a miracle!!! 

I ordered several nametapes and nametags at about 11 pm Monday evening (10/22) and received them in the mail a few minutes ago. I guess the complaints about service are being heard.

What?!  I'm going to need to see a disclosure on your bank statements.  How much did they pay you to say this?      :angel:

[Cecil DP]

Vanguard has performed a miracle!!! 

I ordered several nametapes and nametags at about 11 pm Monday evening (10/22) and received them in the mail a few minutes ago. I guess the complaints about service are being heard.

What?!  I'm going to need to see a disclosure on your bank statements.  How much did they pay you to say this?      :angel:

They saw LtCol and MSG in the same signature block and got scared.

[SarDragon]

I just received my fifth order from Vanguard today (10/26). All items, as ordered, including  some personalized items. I sent them a paper order form, and a check, on the 19th. That's a week.

Score:
success stories - 5
horrror stories - 0

I think I will continue to spend the extra 42 cents and a couple of extra days to get this kind of service.

YMMV.

[O-Rex]

Funny, but I got a personalized Golf Shirt, silver nameplate and TPU jacket in about a week: nothing missing or wrong size (!)

For the most part, I like the Hock, but there is a bit of "caveat emptor:" they do import some of their stuff, and there are some quality inconsistencies.

However their "sta-brite" flight cap devices rock.

[star1151]

Score:
success stories - 5
horrror stories - 0

So what's your secret?  Every so often when I'm bored at work, CAP will float through my mind, usually followed by panic at the idea of next having to order something.  I simply don't have time to follow up with those people twice a week for six weeks until I receive my order.

[SarDragon]

Score:
success stories - 5
horrror stories - 0

So what's your secret?  Every so often when I'm bored at work, CAP will float through my mind, usually followed by panic at the idea of next having to order something.  I simply don't have time to follow up with those people twice a week for six weeks until I receive my order.

I send them a paper order form, and a check. Everything is neatly typed, and there are no chances for confusion on personalization, sizes, or quantities. I use a Word form that I modified from the olde online CAPMart site, and it even does all the calculations for me. You could just as easily do one in Excel.

[star1151]

I send them a paper order form, and a check. Everything is neatly typed, and there are no chances for confusion on personalization, sizes, or quantities. I use a Word form that I modified from the olde online CAPMart site, and it even does all the calculations for me. You could just as easily do one in Excel.

I order online and I'm still shaking my head that it took 7 weeks to get a non-personalized golf shirt.  Does mailing in an order form work better or were you being sarcastic?

[SarDragon]

No sarcasm at all. All of my orders have been mailed in. One large one had a couple of things get backordered, but it was still less than a month from start to finish.

I send the orders to:

VANGUARD
CIVIL AIR PATROL ORDER
1172 AZALEA GARDEN RD.
NORFOLK, VA 23502

[afgeo4]

Anyone know why they don't tell members if an item is backordered? I ordered the Capt gortex tab and while they charged my credit card, they failed to ship it or notify me of its backorder. When I called them they said they'll ship it as soon as they have it , but they don't have a date yet. So I asked them if they'll deduct the interest off of my money that they're holding hostage... Answer: SILENCE, followed by an offer to refund .

Refund?!  Again?! How about that being my last order from them EVER? How's that for a refund? I am absolutely astonished by the sheer disinterest in business and lack of real customer service. I get better service from AAFES which doesn't even make profit!
AAARRRRGH!

[isuhawkeye]

During the whole gore tex slide issue, I got to know one of the supervisors there.  I make a habit of talking directly to him.  Just prior to my wedding I ordered a set of miniature medals for my mess dress.  They busted their buts to get that one done.  I received the order on Thursday and everything was as I ordered it. 

[O-Rex]

Don't know if anyone noticed, but when you order online, there is a "ship complete" box on the check-out page.

For those of you who did notget you orders shipped complete, did you receive an order confirmation email? I've ordered from Vanguard twice in the last year (with seven bucks S&H, I try to make it count!) and the first time I caught a backorder and called them telling them to ship complete.