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IceNine
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2007, 04:29:02 AM »

Interesting...  May have to try that out for a spin once I rule the world, or maybe just IL240
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flyguy06
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2007, 05:02:43 AM »

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a  youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.  Uniform mandatory at each meeting.  Formation and C&C as well.  I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff". 


I agree with that, but actually I found out during the National Conference that waring uniforms at meetings are not mandatory UNLESS you work around cadets.

As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didnt want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron
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flyguy06
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2007, 05:07:34 AM »


[/quote]

Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.  Uniform mandatory at each meeting.  Formation and C&C as well.  I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff". 
[/quote]

It all comes back to "what's the mission?" 

We tell people we are an emergency services org, then saddle them with the additional duty of "assistant scoutmaster," expect them to learn skills that have nothing to do with ES (saluting, drill, military uniform wear), and give them grief when they balk.

We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel).  How do you reconcile that?
[/quote]

Most of my members arent in CAP for ES. We want to conduct a positive youth organization in our community. I am one of two ES qualified people in our unit. And I am not active in ES
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IceNine
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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2007, 05:11:16 AM »

Quote
As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didn't want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron

BTDT- And now there is a sign on the squadron bulletin board reading

"Duc, Sequere vel Abi"  (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
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flyguy06
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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2007, 05:18:58 AM »

Its not that folks are joing CAP for the wrong reasons. Its just that many people see CAP as a voluteer organization. Something they do in their spare time. They have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We all dont own our own businesses or are in positions where we cantake time off at our leisure. Many of us work 9 to5 and have to feed our families so extra curricular activities like CAP are not as important as say feeding our children. So those people do CAP when they can.

Many of my members want to work with youths. they want to be positive role models. They dont have the time to go through the intense training required to be SAR or ES qualified. that stuff takes a lot of time out of weekends and weeknights. People that work Mon-Fri want to spend weekends with their families. Some people work on weekends. I am not able to go to SAREX's because they ALWAYS seem to fall on my National Guard drill weekend.

So I dont think its fair to say that members that choose not to be active in ES are somehow not participatin gin the program. They do what they can and since we dont get paid for it we should be grateful for the help, not matter how smal or large it is.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2007, 05:19:53 AM »

Quote
As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didn't want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron

BTDT- And now there is a sign on the squadron bulletin board reading

"Duc, Sequere vel Abi"  (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
I have no idea what that means
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IceNine
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« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2007, 05:24:55 AM »

Where did that little gem come from???

I distinctly remember someone in the recent past saying that ES is not synonymous with CP.

There are those that do ES, CP, AE as a single unit or any combo there of.  The fact that we are trying to distinguish is that if you choose to be anywhere in eye shot of cadets at any point you have NO option of wearing a uniform, and doing so properly.  There is also no option of looking sloppy, and unprofessional when doing things like rendering a salute, or marching to receive an award.
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"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2007, 11:59:32 AM »


"Duc, Sequere vel Abi"  (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
I have no idea what that means

Google (or Altavista in my case) is your friend
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2007, 12:35:24 PM »

Army FM 3-21.5 describes the purpose of D&C as:"It enables leaders to move an individual or a unit from one place to another in an orderly manner. It also aids in disciplinary training by instilling habits of precision and response to a leaders orders."

In an organization that WILL NEVER BE SOLELY AN ES ORGANIZATION, discipline is needed. Even in an "ES" squadron, staff positions are a requirement, IE: ESO is not an ES specialty, it's a job.

A big problem with volunteer organizations is that people tend to pick and choose not only how much they participate (which is their right) but also what standards they will adhere to. Weak leaders will allow their members to do whatever they want and abstain from whatever they wish.

If all you came to do is fly a plane, go buy a plane. This ain't no flyin' club, this is the Civil Air Patrol. We are founded in tradition and structure that predates all of us, we should try to live up to the legacy that was handed down to us by the members of the original Coastal Patrol Squadrons, not make up the rules as they suit us like some Lindsay Lohan piece of spoiled Hollywood trash.

D&C is part of a well oiled unit. I'm sure no one is saying we all have to function like the 3rd ID Old Guard, just get your head out of your but and learn how to function in a formal military environment.

For anyone to say that they would quit if they had to do D&C is childish, and becomes a testament to your level of commitment. It also shows that you don't play well with others.
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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2007, 12:40:15 PM »

Many of my members want to work with youths. they want to be positive role models.

You just hit the number one reason to wear a sharp uniform or learn how to drill properly enough to avoid embarassment in front of the cadets.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
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www.rideforfatherhood.org
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2007, 12:57:17 PM »

One of the best comments I heard on the subject was from out Cadet Programs officer.  He is himself a former cadet, did a hitch with the Marines, got out and did a hitch with the Army including a combat tour in the First Guf War, then came back and commanded a cadet squadron:

"Look and act sharp all the time.  The cadets do.  If you don't, trust me, they will not say anything to your face, but thereafter you will be the squadron joke.  That's just a fact of teenage life."
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Another former CAP officer
Stonewall
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« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2007, 02:25:12 PM »

Here is the Introduction in my "Orientation for Senior Members".  The entire manual was uploaded for your reading pleasure in another thread.

This pretty much describes I how I felt about the Senior Program 6 years ago when I wrote it and how I feel today.  Nothing has changed.

Quote
Congratulations on becoming a Senior Member at Fairfax Composite Squadron! 

Being a senior member is even more demanding than being a cadet.  Being a senior member requires an even higher standard of dedication, participation, discipline, obedience, leadership and attention to detail.  Whether you know it or not, you are a leader, mentor, and you set the example for young men and women to follow.  What you do and how you act, will directly affect how cadets see senior members and adults as a whole.

This handbook is designed to provide concise information about being a senior member and provide you the information necessary to instruct and conduct yourself in the presence of cadets.  It is designed to complement, rather than replace, the Civil Air Patrol manuals that are the heart of the Senior Program.  Inside, you will find detailed guidelines covering everything from the format of the weekly meetings to military customs and courtesies to progressing in the senior program.

Take the time to study this handbook carefully.  It will prove to be a great help throughout your time as a Senior Member in Fairfax Composite Squadron.

Here is the Closing.

Quote
How will you be rewarded?

The CAP is the official auxiliary of the US Air Force, but it is a volunteer force in every sense of the word.  There is no pay for our work.  The reward comes in different ways to different people, and is a factor of what you are willing to give to the program.  Rank is awarded for completing the steps of the program. Ribbons are awarded for certain activities and accomplishments.  Badges and patches can also be earned for certain specialties.  Intangible benefits, such as the satisfaction of serving your community and your country, are a large part of the program as well.  Also, some portions of the training program can result in college-equivalent hours at the undergraduate or graduate levels, as well as getting world-class training useful in all walks of life.
   
It is my mission to offer a fair and safe environment for anyone who desires challenge, adversity, and the common goal of helping their community through the cadet program and emergency services.  Although many rewards aren’t tangible, they are often appreciated long after the cadets we mentor graduate from high school and move on to college, the military, and life.  I can personally attest to this.

Once again, welcome to senior membership in the Fairfax Composite Squadron of the National Capital Wing, Civil Air Patrol.  I may be contacted at (703) 742-XXXX or pkbowden@xxxxxxx.net.


KIRT BOWDEN, Lt Col, CAP
Commander


I'll go ahead and throw in, from page 2, "Setting the Example".

Quote
Setting the Example

No matter what your position, rank, or how long you’ve been in CAP, as an adult member of Civil Air Patrol, you are setting an example for young people to follow.  Whether you intended to be a mentor or not, you now hold that title.  Cadets will automatically look up to you for answers and guidance.  They will expect you to know these answers simply because you are a senior.

Some rules to live by as a senior at Fairfax

•  No smoking in the presence of cadets.
•  No consuming alcohol or being intoxicated in the presence of cadets.
•  No profanity in the presence of cadets.
•  If not in uniform, seniors should wear appropriate clothing not promoting drugs, alcohol,
    smoking, or profanity and should be in good taste in general.
•  When you think cadets are not looking or paying attention, they are.
•  Always use proper military customs and courtesies.  If saluted, return the salute.  Address
    cadets by their rank (or as "cadet") and last name.
•  In the presence of cadets, address fellow seniors by their rank and last name.  Respect
    and customs and courtesies are contagious.
•  Never let cadets see or hear seniors argue, or otherwise acting unprofessional.
•  If you wear CAP’s military style uniform, you must meet weight and grooming standards.
•  Treat cadets as young adults, not as children.  Let them make some mistakes, but do not let
     them get hurt.
•  You are encouraged to interact with cadets.  Curious?  Ask them what they’re doing, but try
    not to interfere if they are engrossed in a class or project.
•  Enjoy our program!
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JC004
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« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2007, 02:42:25 PM »

^^ oooo more good things from UK
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flyguy06
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« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2007, 07:51:34 PM »

Army FM 3-21.5 describes the purpose of D&C as:"It enables leaders to move an individual or a unit from one place to another in an orderly manner. It also aids in disciplinary training by instilling habits of precision and response to a leaders orders."

In an organization that WILL NEVER BE SOLELY AN ES ORGANIZATION, discipline is needed. Even in an "ES" squadron, staff positions are a requirement, IE: ESO is not an ES specialty, it's a job.

A big problem with volunteer organizations is that people tend to pick and choose not only how much they participate (which is their right) but also what standards they will adhere to. Weak leaders will allow their members to do whatever they want and abstain from whatever they wish.

If all you came to do is fly a plane, go buy a plane. This ain't no flyin' club, this is the Civil Air Patrol. We are founded in tradition and structure that predates all of us, we should try to live up to the legacy that was handed down to us by the members of the original Coastal Patrol Squadrons, not make up the rules as they suit us like some Lindsay Lohan piece of spoiled Hollywood trash.

D&C is part of a well oiled unit. I'm sure no one is saying we all have to function like the 3rd ID Old Guard, just get your head out of your but and learn how to function in a formal military environment.

For anyone to say that they would quit if they had to do D&C is childish, and becomes a testament to your level of commitment. It also shows that you don't play well with others.

I agree with you. I have told my commander on numerous occasions that we need to 2b members that treat CAP like a flying club, but he wont listen. He doesnt want to understand. heck, his commitment level isnt the greatest. The Wing Commander wont do anything because he wants the numbers, so I dont know what direction to go.

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ddelaney103
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« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2007, 09:16:28 PM »

I agree with you. I have told my commander on numerous occasions that we need to 2b members that treat CAP like a flying club, but he wont listen. He doesnt want to understand. heck, his commitment level isnt the greatest. The Wing Commander wont do anything because he wants the numbers, so I dont know what direction to go.

I suggest you give it up.

I've been in the Commander's chair, and as long as your unit's worth to CAP and the Wing is based on number of members, and your ability to keep an aircraft is based on flying hours, he will not make any changes that will monkey with either.

Dumping inactive members from CAP is slitting the throat of your Wing's budget.  All that is driven at NHQ and unless they change it you're stuck. 

My boss was willing to give me cover for dumping my deadwood to the Wing's "ghost sqdn."  We heard from one person that wanted to be moved back and he faded again after a few months.  It cleaned up our rolls w/o a financial hit.  That's probably the best you can hope for here.

There is also a target for number of hours of flying per year for your aircraft.  You don't want to be the one with the lowest hours on the aircraft, because that's the one they'll hit when Region or Wing does the "air assets shuffle."  Never turning down a mission is another good thing, but hours is the make or break.
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floridacyclist
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« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2007, 09:38:34 PM »

How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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JC004
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« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2007, 09:55:41 PM »

How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.

You are correct
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2007, 10:20:37 PM »

How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.

You are correct
Not quite, that is the way you are supposed to do it.  All you have to do is initiate a 2A, and under the transfer action, put current then unit you want to go to.  It would be advisable to talk to the unit commander that you would like to join first.  If I were a unit commander and saw a transfer that I didn't know about, I'd deny it.

If my memory is correct, there is no "unit CC" for a reserve squadron, at least in the wing I was in, so it would have to be done by the losing commander. 

To get out of the reserve Squadron, you just go to the new unit and say I'd like to come back and new 2A is filled out.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2007, 10:25:16 PM »

That is the way it is done, the gaining commander initiates the transfer.

For the -00 squadrons, whoever is assigned at "wing" to oversee those transfers initiates them from a list provided by the losing commander.

As a squadron commander, you would (or whoever it's delegated to) initiate the transfer of another member.  Members can not just 'decide' that they are part of a new unit without approval from the gaining commander.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2007, 10:32:45 PM »

That is the way it is done, the gaining commander initiates the transfer.

For the -00 squadrons, whoever is assigned at "wing" to oversee those transfers initiates them from a list provided by the losing commander.

As a squadron commander, you would (or whoever it's delegated to) initiate the transfer of another member.  Members can not just 'decide' that they are part of a new unit without approval from the gaining commander.
Like I said, that it the way it should be done.

In several of the cases that I know of in the 000 unit was that my Unit CC initiated the transfers himself.  Not Wing, he admitted to doing it himself.  He had permission to do so, but still his call.

I can initiate anything I desire.  It does NOT mean that it will be approved.  For Example:  I fill out a 2A for a transfer from SWR-OK-115 to MER-WV-049, and send it in.  All I need is to have my CC sign it.  Now if Col. Dalton sees that  at WV-049, and didn't know who I was, or that I was coming, he can still deny it.  That does not mean that he or his admin officer has to initiate it.
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