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Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2007, 07:51:30 PM »

I don't disagree with your opinion I disagree with the way you presented it.

Nothing gets to me quicker than people saying "I'm here to do what I want and you can't tell me otherwise"

And you saying "if you tell me what to do I'll just leave" is exactly the attitude prevents foreward motion, and change in this organization.  If you want any changes, ES included, there is no room for stubbornness. 

Oh, oh, ouch! I just spent a weekend dealing with lots of people (pilots) who didn't want to come to an actual missing person mission because they had "other things to do". Talk about stubborness. I am here for emergency service, not for pictures, or news media, or playing soldier, or for parades or airshow parking lot details. I learned that the hard way this weekend. Sorry but on Saturday I was all gung ho for CAP. Now I am seriously disillusioned.

Mandatory D&C class for seniors. No. Send me the CISM guy instead.

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Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
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ddelaney103
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2007, 08:02:32 PM »

Oh, oh, ouch! I just spent a weekend dealing with lots of people (pilots) who didn't want to come to an actual missing person mission because they had "other things to do". Talk about stubborness. I am here for emergency service, not for pictures, or news media, or playing soldier, or for parades or airshow parking lot details. I learned that the hard way this weekend. Sorry but on Saturday I was all gung ho for CAP. Now I am seriously disillusioned.

Mandatory D&C class for seniors. No. Send me the CISM guy instead.

CISM?  Good Grief man, it can't be that bad!

Why is it that I have board certified doctors who can't take a temperature, much less diagnose, any Joe off the street with a couple of weekends of training can perform CAP approved therapy without a license?
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2007, 08:29:19 PM »

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a  youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.  Uniform mandatory at each meeting.  Formation and C&C as well.  I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff". 

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What's up monkeys?
ddelaney103
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2007, 08:49:55 PM »

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a  youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.  Uniform mandatory at each meeting.  Formation and C&C as well.  I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff". 

It all comes back to "what's the mission?" 

We tell people we are an emergency services org, then saddle them with the additional duty of "assistant scoutmaster," expect them to learn skills that have nothing to do with ES (saluting, drill, military uniform wear), and give them grief when they balk.

We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel).  How do you reconcile that?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2007, 08:54:57 PM »


We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel).  How do you reconcile that?

Actually its three, I'm sure the AE folks are apoplectic.

The way we reconcile this is by insuring that all new members understand the >PROGRAM< and not just one cherry-picked component that a given commender or unit thinks is important.  This will require a culture change and some attrition.

When can we start?
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Stonewall
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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2007, 09:05:19 PM »

How many people signed up for CAP to just one thing?  Am I a rarity?  I enjoy all aspects of CAP, to include AE.  Still to this day, I can [darn] near identify almost all aircraft and even know what the camber of the wing is for.  With all that, I still don't consider myself a huge fan of AE, but I do it because it's a part of the program.  I got the Yeager award as part of a group effort in a ES-heavy squadron full of pilots and cadets alike.  Like it or not, the commander said "if you want to fly, you'll learn the history of flying" (via the Yeager program).

I still don't know why, to this date, why someone who is hell bent on search and rescue would join CAP.  Why not join the local SAR group, the folks that don't require you to wear a uniform, hold rank, perform customs and courtesies and don't have little teenagers running around expecting you to lead by example.

Even pilots can contribute to the cadet program and AE side of the house.  By orientation flights and classes on aviation.  Doesn't mean they have to march or drive the cadets to encampment.  But whether you like or not, CAP has a 3-fold mission and we are not a "SAR Organization", an "ROTC" program or "Club for future Astronauts".

Stop your crying about having to do your small part for the total program.  It doesn't take much effort and it won't kill you.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2007, 10:09:06 PM »

The culture of CAP is based around the Military.  The basis of the military is drill, customs and courtesies.  Why would they spend 2 weeks doing nothing but those things in every branches basic training curriculum?  In fact CAP, up until the late 1950's required its new Senior Members to be master of those areas.  We lost that somewhere.  I would have to say somewhere between 1970 and 1985.
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What's up monkeys?
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2007, 10:12:42 PM »

You are in the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  It wouldn't kill you to get with the program. 

Or, join the Coast Guard Auxiliary.  They don't march and don't have cadets.
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Another former CAP officer
Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2007, 10:14:19 PM »

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a  youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

I think if you go to the cap.gov website and download the recruiting brochure and read it you will find that it makes a point of answering the question, "Do I have to wear a uniform?" The answer as I recal is something along the lines of "No, not really, not if you don't want to." The whole point of that is that some of us really think all of this military stuff is a little --silly--- and we'd sort of like to not have to do that.

I just got back from a mission. Lots and lots of green flightsuits and BDUs and not a single salute was exchanged between any officers. Sort of makes me feel silly for worrying about it in previous postings here.
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Nomex Tiberius Maximus
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Stonewall
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2007, 10:18:44 PM »

Sort of makes me feel silly for worrying about it in previous postings here.

It's kind of like the whole AUX ON/AUX OFF, which I still don't know what it means, but you're right, it's not a big deal.  The Customs and Courtesies are there and should be adhered to, but in certain circumstances, they go by the wayside as they should. 

CAP ES Missions, real and realistic practice, are our "combat" as compared to the Real Military™.  Whereas while deployed, you'll see a major decrease in customs and courtesies, you will most likely see the same thing at a mission base and in the field.  On the flight line, salutes just aren't rendered.
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IceNine
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2007, 10:32:55 PM »

Mission Does NOT equal CAP...

There is a world outside of ES regardless of how blind people choose to be.

So for the purpose of this discussion lets assume that Cadet Programs and ES are not one and the same
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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2007, 01:39:02 AM »

I tell folks right upfront that anyone joining CAP for one reason is going to leave disillusioned and for that reason we would prefer for them not to join.

Same here on the aircraft ID....my big thing as cadet AE officer was flashcards. To this day, I am still amazed at the number of pilots who can't tell a P-51 from a PBY.

How many people signed up for CAP to just one thing?  Am I a rarity?  I enjoy all aspects of CAP, to include AE.  Still to this day, I can [darn] near identify almost all aircraft and even know what the camber of the wing is for.  With all that, I still don't consider myself a huge fan of AE, but I do it because it's a part of the program.  I got the Yeager award as part of a group effort in a ES-heavy squadron full of pilots and cadets alike.  Like it or not, the commander said "if you want to fly, you'll learn the history of flying" (via the Yeager program).
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2007, 01:57:45 AM »

First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.

With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:

1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently

2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs

3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?

4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing

5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions

In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole



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Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2007, 02:22:39 AM »

First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.

With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:

1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently

2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs

3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?

4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing

5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions

In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole

This is one of the best set of ideas I have ever seen on this board. I would add just one thing more to it: Only ES members can pilot or fly in the airplanes.

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Nomex Tiberius Maximus
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2007, 02:27:46 AM »

Nomex:  ES members would be choosing to remain uninvolved with CP & AE.

It does not follow, logically, that those who do choose such involvement can't also be active in ES.

Or, to put it another way, some of us enjoy multi-tasking and do it pretty well!

Your amendment is categorically rejected.
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JayT
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2007, 02:33:00 AM »

What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class?  The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation. 
. . .

Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.

--Nomex



Thats a terrible attitude. You're in a paramilitary organization.
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2007, 02:33:22 AM »

First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.

With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:

1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently

2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs

3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?

4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing

5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions

In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole

This is one of the best set of ideas I have ever seen on this board. I would add just one thing more to it: Only ES members can pilot or fly in the airplanes.



The planes also exist for the benefit of the cadet program.  We fly a lot more hours in orientation flights than SAR missions.  Plus we have administrative missions that the real officers need to do, and we use the planes for those command and control missions.
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Another former CAP officer
Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2007, 03:26:09 AM »

All -

I yanketh thy chain.
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Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
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smgilbert101
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Wylie Composite Squadron
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2007, 03:50:02 AM »

Wait a minute.  What about those of us who dual track in Cadet Programs and Emergency Services???  By the way, Cadet Programs is much more challenging than CAP ES.  CAP ES for me is pretty easy stuff.

On a serious note, I am very pleased to see that other members here are standing shoulder to shoulder supporting the cadet program.  I am very happy to see people supporting those "old fashioned" concepts of honor, repsect and integrity.

By the way, some of the best SAR people I've ever seen are CAP cadets.  Off the top of my head, I can think of a 1/2 dozen cadets that I would want looking for me.  They've gone to the Wing and National schools, they've gone through the First Aid, CPR, CERT, and EMT courses on their dime, they run and workout e-v-e-r-y day, they've taken the online FEMA courses (not just ICS 100, 200, 700 and 900) and they research current trends in SAR.  They can explain in detail the advantages of purple nitrile over latex gloves. They can actually carry a victim in a stokes litter without becoming a casaulty themselves.  They soloed at age 16. I know very well the restrictions on cadets and so do they; they study and train anyway just in case they get the opportunity to prove their worth.  They go to school full time and have jobs.  For that, I am d**n proud of their commitment to CAP and their community.

I can only hope that our future Senior Members will show that level of dedication.
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Steve Gilbert
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flyerthom
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2007, 04:18:12 AM »


Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. 


You're going to ban doughnuts?  ???

OFF  WITH HIS HEAD  :P

In all due seriousness, a positive peer pressure helps. Our squadron commander has stopped using the term "meeting."  They are now "commander's call" Result - increased participation and uniform wear even if it's a golf shirt combination. Two simple words have changed the culture.
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TC
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