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Author Topic: A nice WWII era chart of CAP Insignia  (Read 7703 times)
Major Carrales
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« on: August 28, 2007, 05:05:40 AM »



Another e-bay goodie.
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2007, 05:12:25 AM »

Nice one.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2007, 05:14:50 AM »

Notice how the colors look like the USMC's from now.  I know, lets get them for using "our" colors. . . . >:D
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2007, 01:25:31 PM »

Notice how the colors look like the USMC's from now.  I know, lets get them for using "our" colors. . . . >:D

Ours were Army stripes sewn onto a red felt background. Marine Corps stripes were actually expressly forbidden for wear by CAP personnel. The colors were actually slightly different than Corps ones.

An interesting little historical tidbit.
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alamrcn
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Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2007, 02:05:34 PM »

Yeah.... I think that's either a bad photo or those are the wrong ones, as we never wore gold stripes over red.



We wore olive green stripes on red felt, wool, twill, and others - it was WWII, so beggers couldn't be choosers as to what materials were available. It's true that many were hand made, but there were production ones as well.



It is very hard to distinguish between these and Marine Corps insignia. A lot of USMC collectors have CAP insignia in there collections mistakingly shown as a "varient". They are very close, if not identicle in shape and size to the OD on dark blue Army stripes - which we also wore later!

-Ace
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Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2007, 03:20:26 PM »

Nice Chart! 

Great historical reference.

I always liked the OD on Blue Stripes.  This might be a good historical theme to bring back if/ when we switch to the ABU.  Make our ABU/ Blue BDU insignia OD or Sage on Dark Blue.  Personally I would Vote for Sage on Dark Blue, would be easy to read at a distance, and sage matches the colors of the ABU.  Would look good on both ABU and BBDU without looking like any other DOD or DHS organization.  And as mentioned have Historical roots for CAP.

Just my .02 cents.
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Chris Pumphrey, Capt. CAP
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 03:24:14 PM »

^  I like it!  I hate the color we have now white on altrabluemarineseagreen is just terrible.  Looked ok in the 1950,1960's and 1970's when EVERYONE and thier grandmother wore them. 
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alamrcn
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Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 07:37:33 PM »

I guess I've never thought of it before, but INVERSING the USAF insignia colors would be distinctive enough. TapesGrade and Specialty insignia all OD over Navy, instead of Navy over OD. And now, as you've pointed out, there would be a historical madness ...er... purpose for it!

There's the little Maj vs Lt Col oak leaf problem, but otherwise Good Call!

-Ace
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Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 10:51:23 PM »

I have a hard time believing that this chart was actually produced during WWII.  It may represent insignia used by CAP during WWII but its style doesn't seem typical of that era and I'm very suspicious of the patrol base patches being on it -- they were very close-mouthed about those patrol activities and I can't believe they put those patches on a chart during the war. 
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 12:12:22 AM »

Actually, River, I have many such charts in my collection.  People were unfamiliar with rank, insignia and stuff from the military and yet by 1942 EVERYBODY, except Jody, was wearing a uniform. 
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Another former CAP officer
Major Carrales
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 05:41:00 AM »

I have a hard time believing that this chart was actually produced during WWII.  It may represent insignia used by CAP during WWII but its style doesn't seem typical of that era and I'm very suspicious of the patrol base patches being on it -- they were very close-mouthed about those patrol activities and I can't believe they put those patches on a chart during the war. 

If it was from that time period...and I might best have titled this thread "A nice Chart of CAP WWII Insignia..." it looks as if it may have been to instruect servicemen about CAP.

Kach...have you ever heard of MPs "shaking down" a CAP Officer or Cadet for "impersonating?"  I never have...but maybe in WWII a CAP Officer of the era might have presented such a situation.
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 05:52:16 AM »

Heard of a General that did something like that once
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2007, 01:23:43 PM »

I have a hard time believing that this chart was actually produced during WWII.  It may represent insignia used by CAP during WWII but its style doesn't seem typical of that era and I'm very suspicious of the patrol base patches being on it -- they were very close-mouthed about those patrol activities and I can't believe they put those patches on a chart during the war. 

If it was from that time period...and I might best have titled this thread "A nice Chart of CAP WWII Insignia..." it looks as if it may have been to instruect servicemen about CAP.

Kach...have you ever heard of MPs "shaking down" a CAP Officer or Cadet for "impersonating?"  I never have...but maybe in WWII a CAP Officer of the era might have presented such a situation.

I never heard of MP's or generals thinking that CAP officers were impersonating, but somebody once told me that the "US" was added at the base of the shoulder patch because too many people thought that CAP officers, with their red epaulets and funny-looking wings were foreign officers and NCO's.
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alamrcn
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Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2007, 03:35:30 PM »

I never heard of MP's or generals thinking that CAP officers were impersonating, but somebody once told me that the "US" was added at the base of the shoulder patch because too many people thought that CAP officers, with their red epaulets and funny-looking wings were foreign officers and NCO's.

That is part of the "lore" of the US, true enough - remember, it was an era of extreme paranoia.... Duck and Cover! Like was said earlier, the general public really wasn't exposed to any military lifestyle between the Great War and WWII. These charts found in periodicals like National Geographic, combined with features in Life Magazine or a short Newsie (theater news real) were all the general public had to identify the fledgeling US...er, us.

The "official" reason for the US being added to the blue disk, was Civil Air Patrol pilots were the only Civil Defense volunteers that potentially could be captured by enemy combatants. During war, you could cleanly and legally kill any irregular militants and gorilla fighters that you might come up against.

However if a member of an enemy's Army were captured alive, the other side would have to care and provide for said enemy until arrangements could be made at a later time for their safe return. I'm not sure if this was from the Geneva Convention, or another treaty agreement. Anyway, adding the US - a part of all United States military uniforms in some manor - provided the assumption that Civil Air Patrol members would be afforded this protection should the situation arise.

I believe it was added to aircraft first. Production of non-US shoulder patches were VERY limited and thinly spread through the organization. They were only worn by a small portion of the membership for a very short period of time (dates not handy) before the NEW patches came out to match the aircraft with the US under the triangle. This is about the same time (mid-1942) that some aircraft with only the Civil Defence symbol finally added the red tri-prop as well.

No big mystery reason to the red tri-prop, it just fit the triangle better than a two-blade prop. Don't know who actually came up with the idea - maybe Maj Gen J.F. Curry - but he was the TP of his day with all the uniform and aircraft/vehicle emblem changes!!

-Ace
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Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2007, 04:32:31 PM »

Thanks for the insight!  It's nice to have someone with actual information, readily at hand
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 05:50:29 PM »

Sparky,

As for a shakedown by MPs....last fall I was entering an AF base for an airshow.  I was dressed in the green CAP flightsuit. Because I was entering a vehicle gate not open to the public for the airshow (my car is base registered) I showed my base issued ID along with my NEW CAP photo ID.

The gate guard...civilian contractor...started yelling the I was in violation of federal law for impersonating a military officer while pointing at my gold oak leaves. He started to order me out of the car and said he would be placing me under arrest !!! 

Now as a full time cop...I do not take kindly to a security guard telling me he is going to arrest me.  It was about to get ugly.

I told Bozo to look again at the CAP ID that had my grade of major listed on it ...and the photo was me in the same green zoom bag...

He looked at the ID again , mumbled something I could in no way make out, then turned to wave the next car up.

Later that day I spoke to the Major General from the base(who I know very well) about the issue.  Turns out, my contact with the gate guard was discussed at the hot wash for the airshow and I haven't had a problem since....I also haven't seen that particular gate guard either.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....

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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2007, 06:03:28 PM »

I never heard of MP's or generals thinking that CAP officers were impersonating, but somebody once told me that the "US" was added at the base of the shoulder patch because too many people thought that CAP officers, with their red epaulets and funny-looking wings were foreign officers and NCO's.

That is part of the "lore" of the US, true enough - remember, it was an era of extreme paranoia.... Duck and Cover! Like was said earlier, the general public really wasn't exposed to any military lifestyle between the Great War and WWII. These charts found in periodicals like National Geographic, combined with features in Life Magazine or a short Newsie (theater news real) were all the general public had to identify the fledgeling US...er, us.

The "official" reason for the US being added to the blue disk, was Civil Air Patrol pilots were the only Civil Defense volunteers that potentially could be captured by enemy combatants. During war, you could cleanly and legally kill any irregular militants and gorilla fighters that you might come up against.

However if a member of an enemy's Army were captured alive, the other side would have to care and provide for said enemy until arrangements could be made at a later time for their safe return. I'm not sure if this was from the Geneva Convention, or another treaty agreement. Anyway, adding the US - a part of all United States military uniforms in some manor - provided the assumption that Civil Air Patrol members would be afforded this protection should the situation arise.

I believe it was added to aircraft first. Production of non-US shoulder patches were VERY limited and thinly spread through the organization. They were only worn by a small portion of the membership for a very short period of time (dates not handy) before the NEW patches came out to match the aircraft with the US under the triangle. This is about the same time (mid-1942) that some aircraft with only the Civil Defence symbol finally added the red tri-prop as well.

No big mystery reason to the red tri-prop, it just fit the triangle better than a two-blade prop. Don't know who actually came up with the idea - maybe Maj Gen J.F. Curry - but he was the TP of his day with all the uniform and aircraft/vehicle emblem changes!!

-Ace


Close, Ace.  There were Geneva Convention implications to our transition from Civil Defense to Army Air Corps, but that wasn't the reason for the "US."  After all, where is "US" on the Navy uniform?

When we were under Civil Defense, we did not wear uniforms.  The only identification worn by CD personnel was an armband.  The armband had the blue circle, white triangle, and a red center symbol depicting the CD job of the wearer.  First aid folks had a red cross.  Air raid wardens had a series of diagonal lines.  Emergency engineer repair guys had a shovel.  CAP had a propeller.  There were something like 30 specialties, and I saw several charts with all of them shown, but I do not have one of those charts in my personal collection.

When Hap Arnold ordered that CAP planes be armed, the AAF then had to put together a uniform, so that in case of capture the CAP volunteer would be considered a legitimate combatant.  The result was the AAF uniform with red epaulets and stripes.  Ugly, but they didn't have an internet to complain on back then.

The uniform, especially with the red trim and the strange-looking wings, was frequently mistaken by Americans for a foreign uniform.  Foreign allied officers were a fairly common sight near bases, but this was a little disconcerting for the CAP guys.  One of the "solutions" was to create unauthorized  wings by soldering the CAP color seal onto a pair of US AAF observer wings.  Somebody discovered that the circular seal under the pilot's eagle was a perfect fit on the circular center of the Army observer wings. 
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Another former CAP officer
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 07:27:07 PM »

Sparky,

As for a shakedown by MPs....last fall I was entering an AF base for an airshow.  I was dressed in the green CAP flightsuit. Because I was entering a vehicle gate not open to the public for the airshow (my car is base registered) I showed my base issued ID along with my NEW CAP photo ID.

The gate guard...civilian contractor...started yelling the I was in violation of federal law for impersonating a military officer while pointing at my gold oak leaves. He started to order me out of the car and said he would be placing me under arrest !!! 

Now as a full time cop...I do not take kindly to a security guard telling me he is going to arrest me.  It was about to get ugly.

I told Bozo to look again at the CAP ID that had my grade of major listed on it ...and the photo was me in the same green zoom bag...

He looked at the ID again , mumbled something I could in no way make out, then turned to wave the next car up.

Later that day I spoke to the Major General from the base(who I know very well) about the issue.  Turns out, my contact with the gate guard was discussed at the hot wash for the airshow and I haven't had a problem since....I also haven't seen that particular gate guard either.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....



Humm...   that unlucky soul is now guarding perfectly barren and desolate piece of highly valued real estate. With or without the seasonal Night and Day option.
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Chris Pumphrey, Capt. CAP
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Hawk200
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 12:41:08 AM »

....When we were under Civil Defense, we did not wear uniforms.  The only identification worn by CD personnel was an armband.  The armband had the blue circle, white triangle, and a red center symbol depicting the CD job of the wearer.  First aid folks had a red cross.  Air raid wardens had a series of diagonal lines.  Emergency engineer repair guys had a shovel.  CAP had a propeller.  There were something like 30 specialties, and I saw several charts with all of them shown, but I do not have one of those charts in my personal collection....

Not a big fancy chart, but this one shows 23 of them. Scroll about halfway down.

http://www.fcgov.com/oem/civildefense.php

Not certain as to which ones are missing, but this link shows most of them. I have seen photos of early CAP personnel wearing both the disc, triangle and prop. I've also seen photos of the medical insignia worn by CAP personnel. Not sure where I found them, but a good web search might turn them up.
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wingnut
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 03:18:49 AM »

My Dad was in CAP in California in the 1950s he was also a memeber of the Civil Defense by being in CAP.

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