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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: 'rents: Family Involvement
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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2007, 11:04:50 PM »

If my son, in 11 years, joins CAP and I'm still a member, I'll either go to group or wing and play a support role, or at the very least, I'll move into a non-CP function at the squadron.

I agree...if that were an option, I probably would, but I think my Sq CC would shoot me if I took his two most active Officers LOL

Besides, I don't think it's legal for Officers from the panhandle to be on Wing Staff in any kind of real capacity.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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Duke Dillio
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2007, 11:37:58 PM »

I would quickly add my quick horror story.  In a previous squadron, the SQN CC was the parent of one of the cadets.  The SQN CC appointed him as the C/CC and all heck broke loose.  He was junior to several of the other cadets who took immediate offense to being rebutted.  They retaliated by systematically destroying the cadet membership.  Ultimately, the call was made to remove the SQN CC in favor of another member who had no children in the squadron.  I think that in the case of a SQN CC being a parent, it can get kindof touchy but as a staff officer, how do you tactfully tell your commander that you think he/she might consider stepping aside if their child/cadet could be accused of favoritism?

As for the parental involvement, I have found that the majority of the parents in my area want to be involved (figures, this is CA.)  Normally, I have found that the best way to deal with them is to put them to work and keep them busy in an area which requires their "talents" in something that doesn't have anything to do with their child.  I would compare it to taking a former cadet and turning them into a good senior member.  You have to set boundaries but once set there is usually no problem.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2007, 12:04:13 AM »

Every command slot has a superior, the realities of life and our membership numbers mean that
family members will inevitably wind up in a command chain.

Its the responsibility of the next higher Commander to insure these chains are appropriate and effective.
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JaL5597
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2007, 12:08:19 AM »

Every command slot has a superior, the realities of life and our membership numbers mean that
family members will inevitably wind up in a command chain.

Its the responsibility of the next higher Commander to insure these chains are appropriate and effective.

Very true.

And the members should also be willing to police themselves.  Before the IG does it for them.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2007, 12:44:15 AM »

Some of the issues I've run into that didn't involve "illegal" activity but were problems nonetheless...

Parent gets more involved than the cadet and the cadet is no longer in CAP for himself, but for the parent.

Parent is healthy while the cadet had a serious medical problem that prohibited him from doing any strenuous activity.  Father was leaving son behind with mom at home while dad went out and played Ground Team Member.

Mom joins because son joined and she didn't want to commute back home during the meeting.  Mom was a single mom with another younger daughter.  Now we've got this extra daughter running around causing a major distraction. 

Father and son join and father is gung-ho all the way, does a really good job.  However, son is a “problem child” and requires a lot of attention.  This would normally be handled by cadet programs leadership, but since dad is around, he feels the need to intervene, thus making it an uncomfortable situation.  No one wants to tell dad how to be a dad.

Parent joins with a couple of his kids and kids constantly run up to daddy to ask permission for this and that; can I go to NESA?  Dad, there’s an FTX, can we go?  Dad, I wanna do the model rocketry launch next week, can I, huh, daddy can I?  All this, at the meeting during closing announcements.

Parent and child join CAP and while the parent could probably afford to pay for their cadet to be in the program, doubling up isn’t feasible.  Can’t afford senior member uniforms and doesn’t want to use the “polo shirt option”, wants to fit in and understandably so.  Makes for a difficult situation where we want to step in, but not sure if we should.

Mom joins as sponsor and assumes role as the [un]official “squadron mom” by bringing brownies and goodies.  Wants to do fundraisings that aren’t practical, do “bowling nights”, “camp ins”, and all sorts of non-cadet related things.  Even went so far as to get all the cadets’ birthdays so we could bring cupcakes in during weeks when someone had a b-day.

Father joins with cadet and does everything for the cadet.  From carrying his gear to building his model rocket.  Won’t let cadet be a cadet like everyone else.

Mom joins with son and begans to flirt big time and often occupying too much of my time with requiring "special attention".  Yeah, she was married.  Had to be blunt with her on that one.  Lost mom and son.

I’ve got more real experiences to speak of, but these are just a few I had time to write about.
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Duke Dillio
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2007, 12:51:22 AM »

Are some of the real experiences the really bad ones that we will all laugh at privately?   ;D

These are all good examples of when parents go wild.  I would ask, given the same situation, what would you do differently?  I know that we don't want to turn people away from our program but what do we do to fix some of the issues?
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Stonewall
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2007, 01:25:00 AM »

There really isn't a whole lot you could do differently.  I had better experiences as a squadron commander where I was able to communicate my intent of having parents involved compared to when I was the DCC or Leadership Officer and didn't have too much of a say in how we "hired" folks.

During open houses I always mentioned that sometimes parents join CAP along with their cadet, after they see how much fun they're having.  But I always remind them that it's their program and not a "joint effort".  I never really made it an option for parents to assume positions in which they may have a direct role in their cadet's experience.  Service and support roles, no problem.  Parent being a GTL on their cadet's ground team, no issues.  It's the day to day involvement at the squadron meetings where it often became an issue.

Many disagree, but I truly believe that a cadet doesn't get the same experience out of CAP if their parents are right there with them every step of the way.  In a way, CAP is a means to afford young people some independence from their parents.  The cadet can't go home excited about telling their parents something cool that happened at an activity when the parent was right there looking over their shoulder.
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Duke Dillio
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2007, 05:21:18 AM »

Good points and I agree for the most part.  Curious how blunt you were with the flirting mom.  I probably would have loved to be a fly on the wall during that meeting.

"Listen, Ms. Doe, I know that I look really hot and that you might want me and stuff, but you see..."

 :angel:
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Stonewall
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2007, 05:24:22 AM »

Actually, I had to do it via email.  She kept emailing me, sending me pics (not those kind) and comparing me to her hubby.  I feel like she gave her son the raw end of the deal since she made him quit too.  Nice lady.  Nice looking.  Just not the right time and place.
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2007, 01:16:17 PM »

I think this is an important time to point out that it seems that what the reg was intended to prevent was inappropriate fraternization like Seniors taking 16 year old cadets out to dinner and a movie. There is a definite tone of requiring us to avoid even the mere appearance of impropriety.

It does however seem to say that cadets can...cavort...until and unless their parents object and give the Squadron Commander an earful of "what kind of place are you running over there?"

Does anyone have any experience with cadets dating each other. Given the nature of teenage "love," it would seem to be a common occurrence, I just havent been around long enough to have to deal with it yet.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2007, 01:47:15 PM »

Actually, I met my wife at Encampment.  WIWAC there was a lot of 'dating' that when on amongst the cadets in the wing, but everything was left at the door.  Everyone seemed to act professionally and the Sq CC wouldn't have allowed anything to take place anyway - he made that known.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2007, 02:52:34 PM »

I personally haven't had too many cadet relationships in my squadron, maybe 2 or 3, but I've known about a lot.  For the most part, they didn't cause for a bad situation because the 2 cadets involved generally wanted to keep things a "secret".

WIWAC, I dated a cadet in my squadron for a long time.  Even after we left CAP and I went into the Army.  Lasted a few years but our personalities went in different directions as did we.  Broke up on good terms, not a big deal.  I think the only problem that cadet relationships can cause is when the other cadets do find out, it can cause animosity towards the couple.  I said it can, not it does.
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MIKE
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2007, 03:13:27 PM »

Drifiting... Lets keep it on the family involvement angle.  The cite touches on the broader definition of fraternization, but can anyone expand on how the military handles serving family members as it relates to this discussion?
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Mike Johnston
jimmydeanno
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2007, 03:19:13 PM »

family members may not be in the same chain of command.  A few good friends of mine have their spouse in the AF as well.

One wife is an intel person.  Her husband is intel as well in the same flight.  They work separate shifts with separate supervisors.  If one of them is promoted to a supervisory position, they can't be directly in charge of each other.
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davedove
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2007, 03:25:26 PM »

Which can be much harder to do in CAP.  For instance, you could have a spouses, siblings, and children all in the same squadron.  CAP doesn't forbid this, but you have to watch for favoritism.

I think in the parent child situation, it might work better to keep the parent(s) out of the cadet program and instead take other jobs at the squadron.  Of course, if you have a small squadron hurting for people, this might not be possible.
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David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
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Stonewall
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2007, 03:27:02 PM »

In my last ANG unit we had a father and son in the same 15-man shop.  Dad was a TSgt and son a SrA.  Not sure how that can happen, but it truly reminded me of a father and son being in CAP.  While nothing bad every happened, it was obvious that dad often took care of his son.  Simple admin stuff, but it was stuff that no one else would have had the benefit of, which to me is unfair.

In that same ANG unit, had a husband/wife (major/captain) that were both pilots.  On different birds, but still, they were in the same squadron.

My wife is in my ANG wing, but she's medical and I'm security.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 05:47:00 PM by Stonewall » Report to moderator   Logged
topsecret
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2007, 06:45:22 PM »

Original question: 

Would the parent/child or other family relationship be considered unduly familiar in this context?  Is it really appropriate to place family members in a position where questions may arise based on the relationship?

I don't think it's unduly familiar unless the members of the relationship act inconsistently with their positions.  If Dad is the SQ/CC and skips down the seniority ladder to appoint his kid as cadet CC, that's inconsistent.  Even if the kid is the best qualified, Captain Dad and Cadet Kid need to discuss the untenability of Cadet Kid's appointment...if Captain Dad's position is unfairly hindering his son, Captain Dad should relinquish his command.  We're all about cadets, yes?

Senior member parents need to remain professionally distant from their kids at meetings.  Appropriate courtesies should be used at all times, of course.  The senior should visibly recuse himself from decisions or actions involving his cadet offspring.  Avoid not only conflict of interest, but the appearance of same.

Seems simple to me.

Bill Johnson, Major, CAP
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floridacyclist
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2007, 07:28:23 PM »

I agree. You need to be able to look at a kid wearing your last name and not see your kid, but a cadet....and even then, you shouldn't be in charge of or making decisions affecting him if at all possible (sometimes not possible in a small squadron). My kids have probably gotten the short end of more than a few deals because I'll swing the other way to avoid any kind of favoritism, but that is how it has to be if we're going to do this.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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ladyreferee
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2007, 07:38:33 PM »

On the converse, what do you do with the situation where it is obvious that the command bends over backwards to make sure there is no conflict of interest, to the point of being doubly hard on the cadet?  In my case, I have to watch the command rip my cadets off.  I am not in a position of making decisions as I am just a paper pusher, yet I have to watch my cadets get treated as second class citizens by both the command and the other cadets. Yet when I squawk about the mistreatment, the command ignores me.  And I'm not talking about a few deals, floridacyclist, but constant mistreatment.  The bad taste in my mouth is making me seriously consider quitting.

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CHERYL K CARROLL, Major, CAP
floridacyclist
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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2007, 07:52:19 PM »

That would be a tough one. Would taking a sabbatical on your part improve their situation?
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: 'rents: Family Involvement
 


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