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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: 'rents: Family Involvement
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2007, 01:19:23 PM »

I had this problem once. I removed myself from direct cadet interaction and took up a position of a trainer instead of a leader. My problem is, now, when I have to listen to my cadet complain about how F***ed up the DCC is and I won't get involved. We're not talking stupid, we're talking that if I got involved, the IG might also. I don't want to put a target on myself or my kid. I wish our CC had more guts. :'(
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2007, 07:37:25 PM »

Several of you have made the most salient point: commanders (at all levels -- and I include deputies here) need to stand up and take charge, know what's going on, and do what needs doing, even if it is unpopular or politically incorrect.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2007, 07:42:01 PM »

Several of you have made the most salient point: commanders (at all levels -- and I include deputies here) need to stand up and take charge, know what's going on, and do what needs doing, even if it is unpopular or politically incorrect.

Absolutely correct.  However, and this is unfortunately true, sometimes those CCs and DCCs are the very culprits who are at the center of the problem.

It can be so frustrating when the ones guilty of all the things we've mentioned in this discussion are the same people that think everything is all fine, well and good.  Some people are capable of stepping out and looking at themselves as others may see or perceive.  Those are the ones, like Gene Floyd I think, who either take corrective action or are proactive in eliminating any misconduct or inappropriate actions on the family's behalf.  Good on ya, Gene.
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afgeo4
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2007, 07:47:52 PM »

I'll be that as a group/wing commander one of your major worries is who will take over the command if that person chooses family over CAP.

Unfortunately because of energy, time, and financial requirements of being a CAP unit commander, most members with experience choose not to take on that responsibility and because of that there is a real lack of alternatives. Commanders don't want to lose units for small reasons and the possibility of impropriety isn't a good enough reason. They would simply rather ignore the issue and hope for the best (which is usually what they get.)

Sometimes an issue arises and then the superior commander simply says they could not have known anything was going to happen and that it's not their fault.

So many issues in CAP stream from lack of experienced people on top. It's one of our most hurting problems.
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GEORGE LURYE
Stonewall
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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2007, 07:53:34 PM »

Yep, a lot of the best leaders who would make perfect commanders or deputies, at all levels, are the right person for the job because they choose family of CAP.  It's a vicious cycle.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2007, 07:53:52 PM »

Several of you have made the most salient point: commanders (at all levels -- and I include deputies here) need to stand up and take charge, know what's going on, and do what needs doing, even if it is unpopular or politically incorrect.

Absolutely correct.  However, and this is unfortunately true, sometimes those CCs and DCCs are the very culprits who are at the center of the problem.

It can be so frustrating when the ones guilty of all the things we've mentioned in this discussion are the same people that think everything is all fine, well and good. 

And that is why I said it was a command responsibility at all levels. If a sqdn CC is engaged in nepotism, then the group or wing CC needs to step in with counseling first, stronger measures if necessary.

It is a difficult situation, and Capt Floyd & his family are an example of how relatives interact properly in the CAP context....they should be commended!
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2007, 09:03:01 PM »

On the converse, what do you do with the situation where it is obvious that the command bends over backwards to make sure there is no conflict of interest, to the point of being doubly hard on the cadet?  In my case, I have to watch the command rip my cadets off.  I am not in a position of making decisions as I am just a paper pusher, yet I have to watch my cadets get treated as second class citizens by both the command and the other cadets. Yet when I squawk about the mistreatment, the command ignores me.  And I'm not talking about a few deals, floridacyclist, but constant mistreatment.  The bad taste in my mouth is making me seriously consider quitting.



Ma'am-

When you say your cadets in this context I assume you mean your children who are cadets. If you can in a general way, how are they being ripped off?  Is it promotions or awards or not being chosen for certain activities? I dont doubt that its happening and as you say clearly that it is happening often. But what is the severity of the mistreatment?  Are they being yelled at, or in someway hazed?  You see what I mean I think.
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ELTHunter
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« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2007, 11:46:55 PM »

Both organizations have regulations and criteria for advancement, he either meets them or he doesn't, it's pretty black and white. 

Ahhh, but it isn't really all that "black and white."  There are the "check boxes" like the tests and PT, TIG, etc.  But then there is that "posess maturity comensurate with the grade" thing that so often gets "ignored" frequently when mom and dad are the DCC. (Not saying you in this case...) 

So how does a parent judge their own childs maturity and responsibility level in an objective manner?  Sometimes the parents are TOO hard in their judging and some just don't judge at all and leave the checkboxes to do the work...

I have struggled with this issue in my own mind a bit...and I still have a year to think about it.  In Scouts, if anything I think I do tend to hold my kid to a higher standard, probably for two reason, (1) I don't want to give the impression that he is getting preferential treatment and (2) I tend push them to expect the best from themselves.  Not to be the best, but to do their best.  If you remember the original movie Friday Night Lights, you'll know what I mean....Can You Be Perfect?

I expect my kid to start off a little more advanced than your average cherry cadet, he already knows about a lot of the basics from seeing me and going to the occasional squadron meeting as a visitor.  Will that enable him to advance quicker at first?  Will that quicker advancement lead to impressions of favoritism?  I don't know, but that's the kind of thing I guess I'll need to be aware of.

It's been my experience that the check boxes are a fine thing, but I have usually had to make decisions about promotions and cadet leadership based on the subjective criteria of maturity level and judgement.  If I end up still being DCC when my kid joins, I'll leave the promotion decisions up to the CC.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
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« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2007, 12:36:36 AM »

I'm glad this thread is getting the response it is. It shows that this is something that affects a great lot of us.

It can be quite perplexing for some of us as we go from weekly meeting to weekly meeting and any other activity. I find myself going out of my way to ensure I treat my cadet just like any other. Even at home, other than me 'reminding' him about studying for his next achievement (something I think even the standard parent of a cadet would do), I don't think I pressure him much at all. He knows I expect the best from him and I believe that is enough.

I think had I not been a cadet previously, I would probably not be quite so conscientious about it. I'm not saying that I think I'm a better person because I was a cadet, but because as someone who had the 'cadet experience' I know that I don't want an overbearing parent standing over my shoulder at every meeting, giving me grief because I didn't do something right, etc.

Someone else previously pointed out that those of you who are having issues with others in their unit treating their cadet unfairly get nowhere with their DCC or CC. The buck doesn't stop there ladies and gentlemen, work the chain if you have problem. Simple, no?

As for the members out there that take advantage of their position to advance their children through the cadet program and/or think that it's best if 'their family' runs the squadron, shame on you. How you can teach CAP core values when you can't follow them yourselves, well... that one will forever boggle my mind.
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floridacyclist
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« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2007, 01:37:22 PM »

I say that we've never had a problem..I lied...sort of LOL

Once upon a time with the old DCC (the one before the one that sat like a bump on a log...always) one of my kids did something wrong on the obstacle course and got in trouble for it. Capt _____ called me over and explained the situation to me. The conversation was like
me: "OK"
him: What do you want me to do about it?
me: I thought that was your job to figure out"
him (looking dumbfounded): "But he's your kid"
me: Not here he isn't
I went on to clarify my feelings that I was not a parent at CAP unless absolutely needed (medical consent perhaps?) and that I expected him to treat my cadet like any other and not worry what I thought about it.

I was also accused of using the squadron as a babysitter after leaving a movie night/sleepover at the squadron building to go out alone. I was a single parent of 3 at the time and never had any time to myself and there were several other Officers at the event, so it seemed OK to me. I bet other cadet's parents have never caught that flak.

All that said, I think that the best way for many parents to participate is as a CSM.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 01:52:59 PM by floridacyclist » Report to moderator   Logged
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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MIKE
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« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2007, 01:42:38 PM »

^ And no, he doesn't mean Command Sergeant Major.  ;D
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Mike Johnston
afgeo4
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« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2007, 01:50:02 PM »

CAP is a babysitting program. At least it is for many parents. They're all happy that their children have found something they like while they found something to get them off their hands for a few hours a week. That's how many parents see it.

I understand that to a parent we may just be a babysitting service, but it's a service they're happy with and are willing to pay for it and help with our programs once in a while and that's fine with me. What makes it all ok is that the cadet knows what CAP really is.
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GEORGE LURYE
floridacyclist
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« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2007, 02:25:58 PM »

I always thought it was BSA that stood for Baby Sitters of America...at least that was what we always said when I was Cubmaster, we had 26 kids and 4 involved parents. Funny thing is that the involved parents were all single...none of the married parents seemd to have time.

Same thing in Young Marines, which is where I met my wife (she was the Adjutant and I was in charge of the Parents Group). That was where we figured out the part about seperation of blood and rank. Gunny Lay would always reply to the kids when they called me Dad with "Who's yo daddy? Your daddy's not here". I can still hear my 5yo when he went with us to Washington calling me "Mr Fwoyd". Took us over a month after we got home to get it across to him that I was still his dad and that he didn't have to call me mister at home LOL
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2007, 03:16:22 PM »

CAP is a babysitting program.

Too sadly true.  Parents these days are too used to "dropping off" and "picking up".  What happens while they are at the mall is someone else's responsibility.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2007, 03:19:15 PM »

I've been in my new squadron for about 9 months now and I can honestly say I haven't met half of my cadet's parents.  We invite to open houses, activities, etc - we just the kid doing a tuck and roll out the door as the parents drive by.  It's sad really.

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ELTHunter
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« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2007, 06:35:56 PM »

I've been in my new squadron for about 9 months now and I can honestly say I haven't met half of my cadet's parents.  We invite to open houses, activities, etc - we just the kid doing a tuck and roll out the door as the parents drive by.  It's sad really.

At the moment, although I don't have any parents in the squadron, I've got several parents that take an interest in how their kid is doing in CAP.  I've had groups in the past where I never even saw a parent.  A kid would show up alone or with a friend, get an application, bring it back signed and with a check, and I'd never even see anyone try to make sure we weren't a bunch or white supremest militia nuts or something.  Although it's sometimes a pain to have interested parents, there is definitely corralates to the kid of kids you have.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
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afgeo4
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« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2007, 06:47:29 PM »

Why not offer them a cadet sponsor membership?
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GEORGE LURYE
jimmydeanno
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« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2007, 06:53:28 PM »

I would, but I first need contact to do so...tried working through the cadet, mailings, etc - nothing...
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
Lancer
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« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2007, 07:29:55 PM »

We're going the route of setting up a 'Parents Committee'. My wife is taking point on getting this setup and going. She joined as a CSM herself and is working to get other parents in as CSM's.

We worked things out regarding the details of what we wanted to accomplish by having this group, fundraising, activities, arranging guest speakers etc. (they'll be working with me on that as I'm wearing the Activities Officer hat).

She created a flyer, which went home on paper with the cadets, as well as through e-mail distribution. They had their first meeting a couple weeks ago with a good number of the parents. It seemed to go very well and we've got a couple of folks signing up as CSM's because of it and I'm sure more as we have a few more meetings.

Besides having additional resources for assistance, we feel this 'bridges the gap' between the cadet parents and us as staff and sets ground rules for everything and works to keep the lines of communication much more fluid.

I'm anxious to read the minutes from the last NB meeting so I can see what was talked about on the top of parent committees, as I had seen this was something to be discussed.
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afgeo4
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« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2007, 08:34:11 PM »

Great policy!  Is it a squadron SOP? I'm thinking of asking my squadron CC to put out a similar policy even though we don't have that problem yet (we're trying to get parents involved), but isn't that the best time to solve a problem? Before it happens?
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GEORGE LURYE
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: 'rents: Family Involvement
 


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