Wearing the flight suit to weekly meetings...

[ddelaney103]

So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

The Air Force requires aeronautical ratings to be worn. Civil Air Patrol has no equivalent policy. Besides, if you require it, you have to issue it.

So I can sell all this grade insignia back to Vanguard, secure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

[mikeylikey]

secure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

[Viper QA]

The word uniform means everyone wears the same thing. If the uniform of the day is CAP blue it means everyone wears the CAP blue uniform (as long as they meet the height/weight specs). The flight suits should only be worn when engaged in flying. I had a habit when assigned to CENTCOM of asking officers in flight suits "How was your flight" Not one had flown because there are no aircraft assigned to the HQ. Almost got an Art 15, because an O-6 decided I was being disrespectful. luckily I worked for a BG who had written the uniform regs for CENTCOM and was able to point out that flights suits were not authorized.

Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment.

I have no issue with it & don't understand why anyone else would. Would your concern for their uniform been worth an Article 15 in your record? Personally I have more important things to worry about than what the Colonel is wearing today.

As for CAP...I have no problem with bags being worn to a meeting either. I just don't see the big deal about it. I don't wear one & if 39-1 states that they are only for flying activities than so be it. I would not take issue with an aircrew member who comes to my meeting wearing one.

Just my 2 cents!

[A.Member]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with air crew wearing flight suits to meetings.  It is a utility uniform.  I'm guessing those that are opposed have never set foot on an Air Force base.

The only thing I really have to say is that if you do wear it (or any other uniform for that matter), just make sure you wear it correctly.  Meaning don't look like you just pulled it off the bottom of your dirty clothes pile.  Make sure all zippers are closed.  Patches are in correct locations.  etc.  If someone's looking to get their undies in a bunch, that's a much bigger problem within the organization.  I don't consider myself a uniform "nazi" but the sloppy wear of uniforms is a pet peave and unfortunately an occurance that is much more common than it should be (primarily with senior members).

[mikeylikey]

Heck......wear it if you have it, right??  Why not?  Everyone has pointed out that there is no written verbage prohibiting it.  By the way, not too far off topic but I wear my PT uniform for the good part of the day.  I wake up throw it on, do some PT, go to my office, post on CAPTALK, go teach an ROTC class, finish up with an afternoon jog and go home.  I only throw my ACU's on when I have to go see the Battalion Commander, and I rarely throw my Class A's on unless I have to attend a function on campus.  I also enjoy just wearing Khakis and a university polo.  I was always the guy who said, wear what you are comfortable in.

[Hawk200]

So you violating 39-1 why? (Not the flight suit thing, the wings on BDUs things)

The Air Force requires aeronautical ratings to be worn. Civil Air Patrol has no equivalent policy. Besides, if you require it, you have to issue it.

So I can sell all this grade insignia back to Vanguard, secure in the knowledge that CAP will provide all my needs?

No. It means that if your commander requires you to wear an item, you have to already have it, or it will have to be issued to you. If you don't have it, and it has not been issued to you, it cannot be required of you. That does not include items that are part of the minimum basic uniform requirement, only optional accoutrements.

My initial statement was made with the assumption that a person did not currently possess other than the basic items.

[LittleIronPilot]

I'm a big fan of "uniform of the day."  Made lots of posts elsewhere on getting folks to feel like members of a team.

That said, we have to remember that not everyone in CAP even HAS a uniform.  And very few have all, or even close to all the uniforms.

I would never ever mix flight suits with service dress.  That would be wrong and silly.  And the golf shirt just needs to die.

And cadets need to dress alike most of the time- it's part of their military program.  We don't need any adolescent "I'm cooler than you because my Mom and Dad could afford flight lessons." 

But suppose you wanted your squadron "uniform of the day" to be BDUs.  Are you going to require seniors to buy BDUs? What about your pilots who have no need for that uniform?  Sure, you could make 'em (39-1 allows it), but is it really worth their money?   Wouldn't it make more sense to have them invest in the suit they will wear when doing their CAP job? 

Most USAF units are operating in a mix of BDUs and nomex.  This includes the Air Staff at the Pentagon.  The two suits blend pretty well, at least everyone is basically green.  If CAP did this, it would look...pretty air force-y.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

Now, cadets need to dress as alike as possible most of the time- it's part of their military program. 

(As an aside, if I ran CAP, the mandatory uniforms woudn't be service dress, it would be BDUs and flight suits.  That's the clothes when we're doing most of the important stuff.)

What important stuff do we do in BDUs? I thought that ES was completely optional?

CAP should forcus on Blue stuff, Aerospace education and the Cadet Program, way more then ES. Honestly, I think that some units obession with ES is the worst thing for the program. In my area, we have almost no missions what so ever. So we teach cadets such ES skills as 'Don't worry about your uniform, it's an emergency!' and 'Don't worry about rank, it's an emergency!'

I would honestly love to seperate the Cadet Program from the rest of the CAP junk.

ES is one of the three CORE missions of the CAP. Now granted, each squadron may focus on different things given different needs, desires, etc. However I joined CAP BECAUSE of ES. The cadets and AE are cool and all, but lessen ES in I, and many I know, will fall by the wayside.

[Stonewall]

What important stuff do we do in BDUs? I thought that ES was completely optional?

CAP should forcus on Blue stuff, Aerospace education and the Cadet Program, way more then ES. Honestly, I think that some units obession with ES is the worst thing for the program. In my area, we have almost no missions what so ever. So we teach cadets such ES skills as 'Don't worry about your uniform, it's an emergency!' and 'Don't worry about rank, it's an emergency!'

I would honestly love to seperate the Cadet Program from the rest of the CAP junk.

BDUs are not just an ES uniform.  You can do all the stuff in BDUs that you can do in blues, except attend a formal function.  You can march, launch rockets, fly, do ES stuff, attend class, build models, visit bases and fly in their simulators, do military orientation flights, and air shows.  ES is not BS.   You don't have to be a gung-ho ES guru to support the totality of the program.  I'm not an AE guru but I've learned enough in CAP to hold my own and because I lack the knowledge and experience I give 100% support to those who do.  I would only expect that same level of support from non-ES people.  As a squadron commander we did just as much high speed AE stuff as we did ES stuff.  In fact, I'd venture to say squadrons that I've commanded or at least played a major role in the management of said squadron offered everything a cadet could want and more.

Fixed misquote - MIKE

[Cecil DP]

Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment. Quoted form Mikeylikely

The idea is if the "required" uniform for the unit is BDU or Class B, wearing a flight suit is a contravention  of the commander's order's. So he's either a hypocrite in not following orders or just too cheap to put the required uniform into the cleaners. Uniform means everyone wears the same thing and it's always posted in the plan of the day which is posted many days ahead.  Bottom line is leadership and setting the example. With the number of badges/wings available, there's no reason to wear a baggy flight suit to prove you're flight crew qualified, You should be wearing the same uniform as the members of your command. The reasoning that "I'm special so  can wear bags" doesn't stand up and I believe sets a bad example to the subordinates.

[CASH172]

OK, people seem to have the impression that to simply have or wear a flight suit in CAP, one has to be on aircrew.  A CAP member could've never been or seen an airplane in his or her life and still be authorized to have the flight suit.  It's a uniform option for the senior or cadet to have.

[Jolt]

OK, people seem to have the impression that to simply have or wear a flight suit in CAP, one has to be on aircrew.  A CAP member could've never been or seen an airplane in his or her life and still be authorized to have the flight suit.  It's a uniform option for the senior or cadet to have.

Figure 2-19.  Men's and Women's Green Flight Suit and Green Flight Jacket (Flight Crews Only)

Emphasis mine.

[Viper QA]

Are you serious? Why would you care who wore a flightsuit to work? I work for an O-6 who is our MXG/CC. He is a pilot who wears his bag to work almost everyday. He comes into my office all the time to talk about things & I would never dream to ask him "How was your flight." Why would I care if he wears his blues, BDUs, or his flightsuit to work. Aircrew wear their pajamas to work at most bases I have been regardless of their current assignment. Quoted form Mikeylikely

The idea is if the "required" uniform for the unit is BDU or Class B, wearing a flight suit is a contravention  of the commander's order's. So he's either a hypocrite in not following orders or just too cheap to put the required uniform into the cleaners. Uniform means everyone wears the same thing and it's always posted in the plan of the day which is posted many days ahead.  Bottom line is leadership and setting the example. With the number of badges/wings available, there's no reason to wear a baggy flight suit to prove you're flight crew qualified, You should be wearing the same uniform as the members of your command. The reasoning that "I'm special so  can wear bags" doesn't stand up and I believe sets a bad example to the subordinates.

The paragraph you quoted above was actually written by me. I understand the meaning of "uniform" & I don't disagree with much of your point. I was just wondering why it bothered you so much that you felt the need to ask an officer in a flightsuit sarcastic questions. The full bird I work for wears BDUs from time to time, but wears his flightsuit most of the time. It does not bother me in the least & even if it did I would not question him about it. He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Again...just my 2 cents!

[mikeylikey]

He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Ask his enlisted folks offline the question......."do you think it's unfair pilots that don't fly everyday still get to wear a flightsuit everday?"  You will most likely get a "NO".  Then there are the AF Officers that are not rated (chaplains, doctors) that throw it on to "boost" moral.  The whole thing is silly.

[Viper QA]

He flew fighters for 20+ years & if he wants to wear his bag I think he deserves it. I don't think it takes anything away from his ability to lead or has any impact on the folks under him.

Ask his enlisted folks offline the question......."do you think it's unfair pilots that don't fly everyday still get to wear a flightsuit everday?"  You will most likely get a "NO".  Then there are the AF Officers that are not rated (chaplains, doctors) that throw it on to "boost" moral.  The whole thing is silly.

I am one of his SNCOs & I could care less. What really is the difference to me if he is in a flightsuit & I am in BDUs? I think the whole idea that folks get bent out of shape over who is wearing a bag is silly.

[arajca]

A big part of the issue is SOME pilots feel that they can wear their flightsuit to ALL CAP meetings, regardless of the UOD AND they have the attitude that because they're PILOTS, they are above such things a unit commander's directions. I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit." This at a meeeting that was announced in advance that the clean up was happening and bdus or cloting appropriate to the task was to be worn.

The same type of attitude lead to the banning of berets for several years.

[adamblank]

I think Andrew has a very legitimate point.  If you want to allow flight suits to be worn at meetings.  I think there is an easy way in theory to remedy this problem.  As an example, if your squadron wears the service uniform one week and a utility FDU/BDU for three others just illustrate what is allowed in the schedule.  UOD: service or UOD: BDU/FDUS.  If it is a meeting that requires only BDU's ground activities or something of that nature just put BDU's only.  The second problem seems to be just a lack of cooperation in that the individuals in FDUs know they shouldn't be wearing that but for whatever reason (anywhere from arrogance, ignorance, or defiance) they choose to wear the FDU and not wear the UOD.  The remedy for this is one of the great challenges in CAP, correcting a volunteer and trying to fix the problem without losing a skilled individual.

Adam

[JohnKachenmeister]

A big part of the issue is SOME pilots feel that they can wear their flightsuit to ALL CAP meetings, regardless of the UOD AND they have the attitude that because they're PILOTS, they are above such things a unit commander's directions. I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit." This at a meeeting that was announced in advance that the clean up was happening and bdus or cloting appropriate to the task was to be worn.

The same type of attitude lead to the banning of berets for several years.

Banning of berets is a good thing.

Tags - MIKE

[Stonewall]

Hahahahaaaa...  Me in a flight suit while on a military plane.

That's right, a little cadet staff sergeant in a flight suit at age 16 just prior to going up with the Golden Knights during their jump at the Lake City Air Show.  That's right baby, my buddy and I managed to get ourselves on that flight and about two others in Florida.

Army didn't seem to have a problem with us wearing flight suits...



Okay, just showing off...

[jb512]

We have people in our squadron who are GT people and that's all they want to be.  We also have people who are aviation only and that's all they want to be, and there's nothing wrong with either one.  What ends up happening is that on BDU days the aviation people show up in plain clothes or the polo, which is not really that bad but they should be able to wear their "work" uniform just like the GT people.

I like the way the RM does it...  If you are aircrew, then that's almost always your uniform of the day.

[Hawk200]

...I've also seen pilots in flightsuits refuse to help at a work day cleaning up around the meeting facility because "dirt degrades the fire protection propertied of the flight suit."

Emphasis added.

Funny that they would perceive that as a problem. The flying crewchiefs in my unit are working on the helicopters all the time in their A²CU's. They don't seem to think that the dirt degrades the protection. Oil, grease or hyd fluid would be a different story, but dirt?

Methinks I smell a rat. Or in other terms, what a load of crap!