September 25, 2020, 09:54:03 pm

Air Search and Rescue Ribbon

Started by Stonewall, September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stonewall

From CAPR 39-3:

Quote from: CAPR 39-3Combined Participation. A member who earns the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as an aircrew member is identified as an aircrew member by having the bronze propeller attached to the ribbon. If the same individuals earn clasps as a ground member of searches or missions, they are authorized to attach the clasps to the same ribbon with the bronze propeller. This applies also to the individual who initially earned the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as a member of a ground search party and at some later date participates in enough searches as an aircrew member; the member is then authorized to attach the bronze propeller to the ribbon. The first clasp, when awarded to a member with a bronze propeller already on their ribbon, is placed in the middle of the wearer's left-hand side on the ribbon between the edge and the propeller; the second, on the opposite side in the same position. Additional clasps are placed so that the ribbon will have a balanced appearance until a silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps.

How do you interpret this in this scenario?

You're qualified both as a Ground Team Member and Aircrew Member.

You accrue credit for 6 sorties while operating on the ground, and then accrue 4 sorties as an aircrew member.

Total sorties accomplished is 10.

Did you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Eclipse

Quote from: Stonewall on September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pmDid you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Yes and yes.

BTDT.



ctrossen

Quote from: Stonewall on September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pmDid you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Yes and no.

You accumulated a total of 10 sorties combined participation as ground team and aircrew. But you did not earn it by completing 10 sorties as aircrew and thus are not eligible for the bronze propeller device until you complete a total of 10 aircrew sorties (6 more sorties).

After that 10 aircrew sorties, counting air sorties separately doesn't matter. All of your combined participation (air, ground, staff) is lumped into one complete sum for purposes of calculating award of additional bronze clasps (10 sorties per) and ultimately silver (50 per).
Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

PHall

Quote from: ctrossen on September 15, 2020, 05:20:20 pm
Quote from: Stonewall on September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pmDid you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Yes and no.

You accumulated a total of 10 sorties combined participation as ground team and aircrew. But you did not earn it by completing 10 sorties as aircrew and thus are not eligible for the bronze propeller device until you complete a total of 10 aircrew sorties (6 more sorties).

You don't need 10 "ground" sorties and 10 "air sorties. It's 10 sorties, period. Be they air, ground or subterranean.
And you get the prop device to show that you have at least one sortie in the air.

ßτε

Quote from: PHall on September 15, 2020, 06:37:48 pm
Quote from: ctrossen on September 15, 2020, 05:20:20 pm
Quote from: Stonewall on September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pmDid you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Yes and no.

You accumulated a total of 10 sorties combined participation as ground team and aircrew. But you did not earn it by completing 10 sorties as aircrew and thus are not eligible for the bronze propeller device until you complete a total of 10 aircrew sorties (6 more sorties).

You don't need 10 "ground" sorties and 10 "air sorties. It's 10 sorties, period. Be they air, ground or subterranean.
And you get the prop device to show that you have at least one sortie in the air.
You need 10 air sorties for the prop.

Spam

Quote from: ßτε on September 15, 2020, 11:46:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on September 15, 2020, 06:37:48 pm
Quote from: ctrossen on September 15, 2020, 05:20:20 pm
Quote from: Stonewall on September 15, 2020, 03:36:41 pmDid you earn the ASAR ribbon, and if so, does it get a propeller?

Yes and no.

You accumulated a total of 10 sorties combined participation as ground team and aircrew. But you did not earn it by completing 10 sorties as aircrew and thus are not eligible for the bronze propeller device until you complete a total of 10 aircrew sorties (6 more sorties).

You don't need 10 "ground" sorties and 10 "air sorties. It's 10 sorties, period. Be they air, ground or subterranean.
And you get the prop device to show that you have at least one sortie in the air.
You need 10 air sorties for the prop.

Agreed. The scenario mentioned merits the basic ribbon, but you need a full 10 air sorties on actual (not training) SAR missions for the prop.

As evidence, it would be helpful to review the line which states, "and at some later date participates in enough searches as an aircrew member; the member is then authorized to attach the bronze propeller to the ribbon".

R/s
Spam

Eclipse

Seriously...

CAPR 39-3, Page 13:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf
"c. Air Search and Rescue Ribbon. Participate in at least 10 search and rescue sorties. A
bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 sorties. All sorties must be in support of an actual
search and rescue mission authorized by competent authority."


10.

For >any< duty. (which includes ICS personnel)

"(1) Aircrew Members. A bronze three-bladed propeller device will be worn centered on
Air Search and Rescue Ribbons earned as aircrew members."


Oh, you had one as an MO?  Add the prop.

Then you have what the OP quoted:
"(3) Combined Participation. A member who earns the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as
an aircrew member is identified as an aircrew member by having the bronze propeller attached to the
ribbon. If the same individuals earn clasps as a ground member of searches or missions, they are
authorized to attach the clasps to the same ribbon with the bronze propeller. This applies also to the
individual who initially earned the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as a member of a ground search
party and at some later date participates in enough searches as an aircrew member; the member is
then authorized to attach the bronze propeller to the ribbon. The first clasp, when awarded to a
member with a bronze propeller already on their ribbon, is placed in the middle of the wearer's lefthand side on the ribbon between the edge and the propeller; the second, on the opposite side in the same position. Additional clasps are placed so that the ribbon will have a balanced appearance until a silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps."


Referring to the first quotation, the ribbon is earned for "10 as anything". Not "10 as Air plus 10 as other, etc." You earn it for 10, if some of those were in an airplane, you add the prop.
No where does it say you require 10 for the prop.

There have been efforts through the years to rename this and remove the "Air", but they are
always defeated for "reasons". At best that has been a misnomer for ages.



Spam

How do you reconcile your "one as MO" position with the clearly plural statement I quoted above? The one which you also cut and pasted, regarding gaining enough subsequent air sorties to qualify on that basis?  

The reg clearly allows for the basic ribbon for any duty, but also clearly requires a full slate of 10 as aircrew to add the prop.

V/r
Spam

baronet68

Quote from: Eclipse on September 16, 2020, 03:19:31 amCAPR 39-3, Page 13:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

...what the OP quoted:
"(3) Combined Participation. A member who earns the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as
an aircrew member is identified as an aircrew member by having the bronze propeller attached to the
ribbon. If the same individuals earn clasps as a ground member of searches or missions, they are
authorized to attach the clasps to the same ribbon with the bronze propeller. This applies also to the
individual who initially earned the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon as a member of a ground search
party and at some later date participates in enough searches as an aircrew member; the member is
then authorized to attach the bronze propeller to the ribbon. The first clasp, when awarded to a
member with a bronze propeller already on their ribbon, is placed in the middle of the wearer's lefthand side on the ribbon between the edge and the propeller; the second, on the opposite side in the same position. Additional clasps are placed so that the ribbon will have a balanced appearance until a silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps."


Emphasis added above

While I personally prefer the idea of 'one or more air sorties equals propeller device', it would seem by the way it is written above that one needs to earn enough air sorties (presumably ten) in order to qualify for the propeller device.

Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on September 16, 2020, 06:21:59 amThe reg clearly allows for the basic ribbon for any duty, but also clearly requires a full slate of 10 as aircrew to add the prop.

Cite please.




Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on September 16, 2020, 12:46:27 pm
Quote from: Spam on September 16, 2020, 06:21:59 amThe reg clearly allows for the basic ribbon for any duty, but also clearly requires a full slate of 10 as aircrew to add the prop.

Cite please.


Done - above - twice already.

... can you cite where you're finding a reference to support a singular hop to qual?

V/r
Spam

Eclipse

You haven't cited anything that says "must be 10 air sorties to earn the prop".

My cite is in the verbiage on this thread, and logic says nothing else.

     Just Aircrew?  10 sorties gets the ribbon and prop by default.  No clarification needed.

     Just Ground and ICS?  10 sorties gets you the ribbon only.  No clarification needed.

     Work all sides of the house?

     Section (3) says "Combined participation" gets you the ribbon with the prop.

Your supposition would require twenty (20) sorties, or eleven (11) sorties, depending on
how you do the math.  At no point do either of these numbers appears in the regulation.

There is no ambiguity here unless the reader wants to make it harder to put a prop
on the ribbon, which makes no sense.

"Man, I've been doing UDF sorties and working Ground Branch for ages, but I never
got a chance to pull a real-world Observer mission until today."

"Congrats! you get to add a prop to your ribbon!"


There is no logical reason for it to be any other way, and no support in the regulation.



Spam

Baronet even emphasized it in red.

Subject/verb agreement with respect to singular search vs. plural "searches" is the question you've refused to answer (or perhaps you have - that you don't care what the reg says).

But you be you. Have a nice day, done here.

V/r
Spam

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on September 16, 2020, 06:45:48 pmBaronet even emphasized it in red.

Yes.  Enough = "1". So 9 + 1.  (or 8, or 2, or whatever it takes to get to "10")
That's all it says and says nothing else.

Quote from: Spam on September 16, 2020, 06:45:48 pmSubject/verb agreement with respect to singular search vs. plural "searches" is the question you've refused to answer (or perhaps you have - that you don't care what the reg says).

Asked and answered.

Quote from: Spam on September 16, 2020, 06:45:48 pmBut you be you. Have a nice day, done here.

Condescension does not an argument make, but it is a nice day.



jeders

And we're done, thanks for playing.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse