September 24, 2020, 04:15:53 pm

Remember that one uniform idea?

Started by Stonewall, August 09, 2020, 06:35:13 pm

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Eclipse

The reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.



shuman14

Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 04:35:44 pmThe reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.

Is the Polo Combo a compromise? Maybe... but if every CAP Senior Member had that uniform (i.e. Required), we would achieve uniformity at an actual working mission.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

Quote from: shuman14 on August 24, 2020, 04:47:32 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 04:35:44 pmThe reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.

Is the Polo Combo a compromise? Maybe... but if every CAP Senior Member had that uniform (i.e. Required), we would achieve uniformity at an actual working mission.

But again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

Then we have the other question, which polo? The one with the white seal on the left, or the full color seal on the right with name and rating on the left, or the black tactical polo.....
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

shuman14

QuoteThen we have the other question, which polo? The one with the white seal on the left, or the full color seal on the right with name and rating on the left, or the black tactical polo.....

Like shades of Grey, CAP needs to pick ONE, say this is it, give the other ones an appropriate wear-out date and move on.

As I said further up in the Thread, if you want to be on a Ground Team, tie a Field Uniform possession to earning the technician Rating. Check Block #1 ...Possess Appropriate Field Uniform (OCP, ABU, BDU, BBDU).

Personally, the OD Uniform that started this thread should have been adopted as the SOLE Senior Member Field Uniform give the rest an appropriate wear-out date and move one.

Let the Cadets keep the OCP/ABU Field Uniform and put the Seniors into ONE (and only ONE) Field Uniform.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

The technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 pmBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons,

They can and do today.

The fact that they can is part of the problem.

So is the multi-colors and style of the gold shirt, etc., etc.

CAP has historically been terrified of alienating what is likely a very small
portion of the membership because of their perceived reception of "required"
vs. "we'd really like you to".

I would hazard the majority of members worth keeping would be very happy if
the term(s) "may" and "should" were permanently replaced with "will".  Even those
who didn't' like it would still have the luxury of being told the way of the world
and then making decisions based on that.




GroundHawg

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:01:07 pmThe technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.

Preach!!!

Capt Thompson

Quote from: GroundHawg on August 24, 2020, 06:42:56 pm
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:01:07 pmThe technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.

Preach!!!
It would make things so much easier, we have no need to look tactical whatsoever so the BBDU's fit the mission much better. Everyone could be in the same uniform, and we wouldn't have to change field uniforms every time big blue does.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 pmBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

We could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).

Capt Thompson

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 pm
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 pmBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

We could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).
Would be one less expense for those on aircrew if they already have ABU's. I don't know about you though, but I think the FDU is a little more comfortable than ABU's or BDU's for sitting for long periods of time.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

SarDragon

Quote from: etodd on August 24, 2020, 03:24:34 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 pmI think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room.
 

^^^ This.  Obviously boots and fatigues if you're ground team traipsing through the forest and climbing hills.

But at Mission Base thats not necessary at all, and would look like you should be elsewhere outside. All you need to sit at a desk working Comms, or working in WMIRS, or filling out spreadsheets, is the polo. And its better than the white shirt, as coffee and pizza stains do not show up as bad. ;(

In colder WX, I can see the long sleeve bag suits for aircrews. But here in the hot, humid south, I see the polo more often than not in the planes.

So yes, duties should dictate uniforms more than appearances. JMHO

In my AOR, comms isn't just sitting at a desk. We have to set up a complete station, including antennas. This is not clean work. I, and most others on the comm team, wear BDU/ABU/BBDUs during exercises and missions.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 pmWe could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 pmWould be one less expense for those on aircrew if they already have ABU's.

Could?

Can and do all the time, as do the majority of cadets.

FDUs are not required for flying (hasn't even Cali's supp been removed?)




Stonewall

It's interesting how this thread, much like the original from 13 years ago, always end the same.

"We are this, not that."

"We only need polo shirts."

"We are a paramilitary organization."

"We're not a Real SAR Organization."

"We don't need uniforms at all."

"Most people don't want to wear uniforms."

It goes on and on and on, all because of uniforms. Do ABUs have a place in SAR? Do cadets have a place in SAR? Specifically Ground SAR? All good questions, and EVERYONE'S response, many of which are passionate and seem to be deeply personal, have valid points, where others seem to be based on "I just don't want to wear a military uniform."

All the way back in 2007 when I was healing from back surgery, which is when I joined CAP Talk, because I had almost two months of nothing to do, I grabbed an Olive Drab version of the ACU made by Tru-Spec and threw my CAP name tapes and patches on the blouse. They don't even make the olive drab version anymore.  It was just a random thought that, took on hundreds of responses fueled with opinion and personal feelings on uniforms in CAP.

I think  the big divide is that between a military style cadet program, where military uniforms make sense, both for the youth and adults involved, but then you head over to our second of three missions, emergency services, and the question comes "do we need the same uniform for ES as we do in cadet programs?

The answer is...

In MY opinion, PROBABLY NOT.

I have two close friends, one is a former cadet of mine (PJOC grad, C/Lt Col, PhD, white water rafting expert, and trail guide) who is now a part of the Shenandoah Mountain Rescue Group in Virginia. The other is a recently retired Navy Special Warfare Corpsman doing SAR in California. One of the things these two different SAR organizations have, despite being on separate coasts of the CONUS, is their loose uniform requirements. Loose, but still, a uniform nonetheless.

Here is an example of SMRG out of Virginia.


One of the thoughts I had, even back in 2007 when I hastily threw the OD uniform together, is that it fits the uniformity need for the cadet program and has a military appearance to it. Then, for our GSAR folks, doff the blouse and throw on a blaze orange CAP-SAR t-shirt, long sleeve or even a windbreaker or other jacket, and bam, you fit the bill for a SAR team member.

Maybe something like this?


So, bring this back to 2020. The 2007 idea of an olive drab BDU style uniform is irrelevant. But the discussion of our military program's uniform (currently ABUs) being the right uniform for Emergency Services should still be on the table. Personally, I HATE ABUs, I always have, in the AF and in CAP, but what I do like is consistency, continuity, and uniformity. But let's be realistic about this.  The PJs who run SAR missions here in the US, to include launch and recovery support to NASA, don't wear the same uniforms for those missions as they do on Combat SAR Missions. Sure, they'll be wearing their MultiCam combat pants because they're good for anything, but you'll see them with a blaze orange, even reflective top, an orange rock climbing helmet, and a chest rig with a radio. 

CAP doesn't do a whole bunch of Ground SAR these days, I understand that, but we still do offer the service, and still actually do real world ground SAR missions. If we adjusted our methodology, updated our doctrine; everything from packing lists to specific SAR "uniforms" (or a better term may be "SAR attire"), then perhaps we could have a stronger showing and an improved reputation within the Volunteer SAR community.

/Uniform Rant

Capt Thompson

I would agree with swapping out to an orange shirt of some sort when doing ES missions, and it would give a better appearance of uniformity even when you have a mix of ABU, BBDU and woodland BDU trousers in the group.

The only barrier would be for our Cadets just getting into ES that already have to put together a gear load, this would be an added expense, but doesn't necessarily have to be a large expense depending on what type of shirt or windbreaker we used. You could go with a Class II compliant T-shirt with some sort of logo for UDF and ground search in open field, and then have a Class II compliant long sleeve shirt you could quickly throw on when playing in the woods.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Stonewall

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 01:41:31 pmThe only barrier would be for our Cadets just getting into ES that already have to put together a gear load, this would be an added expense, but doesn't necessarily have to be a large expense depending on what type of shirt or windbreaker we used.

That's partly why I alluded to updating our doctrine here.

Quote from: Stonewall on August 25, 2020, 01:26:48 pmIf we adjusted our methodology, updated our doctrine; everything from packing lists to specific SAR "uniforms" (or a better term may be "SAR attire"), then perhaps we could have a stronger showing and an improved reputation within the Volunteer SAR community.

I've asked for packing lists from a couple of Volunteer SAR groups to compare theirs to ours just to see the differences, if any. While I know ours is antiquated for things like "change to make phone calls" and "35mm camera", but I have a feeling we have a handful of items others may consider irrelevant and unnecessary weight, and cost.

Capt Thompson

I would assume most local SAR groups have less along the lines of survival, and more along the lines of first aid and medical equipment. When is the last time you've needed a signal mirror on an ES mission, or waterproof matches, etc. Shelter material can be used to make an improvised litter, but then we have an actual litter in the van. I understand the reasoning, and there are some places in the Country where this might be practical, but if we are having members getting lost and having to set up shelter or use survival skills on a mission, something went seriously wrong at some point.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Capt Thompson

Here is NASAR's Sartech II packing list: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nasar/legacy_url/64/NASAR_SARTECHTM_II_MINIMUM_PERSONAL_EQUIPMENT_LIST_11_2004.pdf?1421875176

I stand corrected, they have all of the survival equipment we have and more. They also have climbing gear (tubular webbing, carabiners, prusik cords etc.), and they use tracking sticks which we don't train with but maybe should.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Stonewall

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 02:56:34 pmHere is NASAR's Sartech II packing list: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nasar/legacy_url/64/NASAR_SARTECHTM_II_MINIMUM_PERSONAL_EQUIPMENT_LIST_11_2004.pdf?1421875176

I stand corrected, they have all of the survival equipment we have and more. They also have climbing gear (tubular webbing, carabiners, prusik cords etc.), and they use tracking sticks which we don't train with but maybe should.

Yeah, I had that list, but I was more centered on the "extended duration pack", or 72 hour pack. (Which, is only required for CAP's GTM-2 and GTM-1) And that's on par with NASAR SARTECH II minimum standards. I always see our ground team members with so many dangling items, mostly inconsistent with quality gear, or with each other, that it's an eyesore.

There are a few things that are different, but the differences are minimal and offset each other as far as weight, but not for necessity. I'm also sure the NASAR guys adjust what they pack once they've passed the evaluation, much like many do in CAP.

TheSkyHornet

I don't know that the direction of the conversation went too far awry in discussing what uniform fits what scenario.

I think a huge talking point that was brought up is the fact that not only is there a uniform for every situation and circumstance, but sometimes a single situation has five different uniforms on-deck. That's the "why" in all of this.

If you show up to the main hut, you're going to see:
  • Woodland BDUs
  • ABUs
  • Blue BDUs
  • Left-branded polo with tactical pants
  • Right-branded polo wit grey slacks

The images above were a great example of how each team has a similar appearance known as a "uniform." Maybe they're not a 100% match, but you see a theme of pants and shirts, and even gear.

CAP doesn't do that. Everyone is scattered wearing different stuff because of what they chose to arrive in and what they feel more comfortable in.

My vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."

Eclipse

You can't prescribe the packing list until you define the mission.
Right now CAP has mission statements, not mission definitions.

You can't define the mission until you have defined the customer.
The customer in CAP's case includes the cadets.

You can't be all things to all people.
CAP currently tries to do this, while being averse to anything that might
define itself in a way that reduces its audience, both external and internal.


Start there.