September 24, 2020, 04:04:20 pm

Remember that one uniform idea?

Started by Stonewall, August 09, 2020, 06:35:13 pm

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Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 07:59:29 pmI've never seen an aviator shirt at a SAREX and rarely a polo, usually ABU, BBDU for ground crew and mission base and flight suits for aircrew.

Your experience is not typical.

Service dress or Aviator whites a typical uniform worn by the PAOs, Chaplains, CISMs, Agency Liaisons, and
anyone else who may encounter the general public, including the IC.

The CWU is a typical uniform for ICS personnel at the branch or higher level assigned to the ICP.



Capt Thompson

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:28:20 pm
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 07:59:29 pmI've never seen an aviator shirt at a SAREX and rarely a polo, usually ABU, BBDU for ground crew and mission base and flight suits for aircrew.

Your experience is not typical.

Service dress or Aviator whites a typical uniform worn by the PAOs, Chaplains, CISMs, Agency Liaisons, and
anyone else who may encounter the general public, including the IC.

The CWU is a typical uniform for ICS personnel at the branch or higher level assigned to the ICP.

Not saying you're wrong, different Wings will do things different ways. Looking through all of the photos I took the last time I was PIO at a SAREX, I see a couple of polos, mostly ABU's, and a few FDU's. No aviators or blues, even among mission base staff.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

SarDragon

Most of the missions I have been to, SAREX or otherwise, have had three groups of uniforms - polos for the staff folks, BDU/BBDU/ABU for the folks who are gonna get dirty, and zoom bags for the fliers. We did see some folks in Class B/aviators one time, as observers from somewhere outside the Group. I do not recall exactly who they were.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:24:31 pmThis is not a "thing".  Read 39-1. The CWU is considered a "working uniform" and is therefore approved
in any circumstance in which a "working uniform" is the UOD, including GT and UDF.

What the regulation actually says (Table 1-1) is that "(t)he Corporate Working Uniform may be worn in a flying, field or mission setting when the USAF‐style Class B or Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform would normally be worn", and it also says that "(c)hoice of which combination is appropriate depends on the commander's direction and the type of event".

I have at least one time seen a senior member in the polo shirt, slacks and low quarters join a ground team in a TRAEX, but I don't think the regulation provides unambiguous support for that in the same way you do.

Capt Thompson

I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 11:32:48 pmI guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform.

That's required to complete the tasking.

There's no uniform prescription for any CAP duty within the regulations.



SARDOC

Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453 de=1597188768I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: SARDOC on August 21, 2020, 12:42:47 am
Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453 de=1597188768I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.

Safety is the most important thing.

But I don't get this notion of how one uniform looks more professional than the other. Professionalism is based on your appearance and conduct in a given environment. It would be unprofessional to be in Blues while jungle-hopping. It would be very much professional for the entire ICP to be in fatigues; nothing wrong with that. Many ICPs/EOCs are staffed in fatigues, and the press conferences are briefed in the utility UOD.

We get so wrapped up in this idea that you need to be in x-uniform in order to be professional. We have that backward.

etodd

Air crews getting ready to chase Reapers awhile back. Fun mission. This is what we wore all week.

People choose what they feel comfortable in. Squadrons, Wings, Regions all vary. Its a good thing.

(Admin ... Feel free to delete if photos not allowed?)

MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: etodd on August 22, 2020, 03:10:31 amAir crews getting ready to chase Reapers awhile back. Fun mission. This is what we wore all week.

People choose what they feel comfortable in. Squadrons, Wings, Regions all vary. Its a good thing.

(Admin ... Feel free to delete if photos not allowed?)


But, it can't be denied. Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

We can do better than that.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Fubar

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 22, 2020, 03:27:39 amBut, it can't be denied. Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

TPTB™ have determined that to be a feature, not a bug. It's not unreasonable that there are people who don't like the lack of uniformity, but equally reasonable there are people that like the flexibility.

ctrossen

For all the complaints about the "non-uniformity" of the pants worn with the corporate combos, here's a flash - the National Guard has a uniform combo that is a direct analogue to our polo, one worn by members of the Civil Support Teams (of which each state and territory has at least one) - which are comprised of both Army and Air Guard members.

It's a simple blue polo with the CST logo on the left chest, worn with commercially sourced khaki pants, and the boots and t-shirts worn with their utility uniform. (Sound kinda familiar?)

Want to talk about not-quite standard shades of color? Check out the two links below that show members of CSTs in their "civilian friendly" uniforms. That first one has seven members. How many different colors of trousers do you see? How about the second?

https://minnesotanationalguard.ng.mil/55cst/

https://mil.wa.gov/10th-civil-support-team


No matter the uniform combo that's ever been worn, there will always be differences in shade due to material used, wear, wash cycles (and the detergents used), etc. Regardless of the actual shade of color of a particular item, it still serves the same function - a uniform style of dress identifying and unifying a select group of members for a particular task or mission.
Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

Eclipse

Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

This should be CAP's marketing motto - it works on a number of levels.



SARDOC

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 21, 2020, 01:19:07 pm
Quote from: SARDOC on August 21, 2020, 12:42:47 am
Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.

Safety is the most important thing.

But I don't get this notion of how one uniform looks more professional than the other. Professionalism is based on your appearance and conduct in a given environment. It would be unprofessional to be in Blues while jungle-hopping. It would be very much professional for the entire ICP to be in fatigues; nothing wrong with that. Many ICPs/EOCs are staffed in fatigues, and the press conferences are briefed in the utility UOD.

We get so wrapped up in this idea that you need to be in x-uniform in order to be professional. We have that backward.

I'd say having a single uniform is the same reason why we put so much emphasis on Brand Identity.  Makes it look like we are somewhat coordinated.  Military Services have a Uniform of the Day for a reason.  Like we've got our crap together.  instead of just winging it.

usaf_defender

Agreed. I was speaking with a member of one of the local SAR teams and she was staying that the military uniforms were off putting on search sites. They looked uncoordinated and more akin to a militia. (Which we have here in Maine and who often show up). I explained to her what the background on CAP was and why we wore what we wore. It was interesting getting that side of things though.


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SARDOC

Quote from: Eclipse on August 23, 2020, 06:41:18 pmSix crew members. Six shades of gray.

This should be CAP's marketing motto - it works on a number of levels.
Are you referring to their pants or their hair?

TheSkyHornet

August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 pm #36 Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 02:17:30 pm by TheSkyHornet
Quote from: SARDOC on August 23, 2020, 07:38:16 pmI'd say having a single uniform is the same reason why we put so much emphasis on Brand Identity.  Makes it look like we are somewhat coordinated.  Military Services have a Uniform of the Day for a reason.  Like we've got our crap together.  instead of just winging it.

Oh, I completely agree.

I think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room. And I think we often confuse what "professionalism" means in uniform, and get into these arguments over what to wear in equivalency rather than what everyone should be wearing.

If 90% of the people in the room are in fatigues, there shouldn't be people roaming around in white aviators. If most of us are in blues, nobody should be in a polo. We have a really tough time getting that right.

In most cases, we're all doing the same thing, essentially. The person manning the comms stack is supporting the same daily operation of the person running the sign-in and badging desk at the main table. It should be the same UOD.

A common uniform creates a coordinated team: we all know who works for whom and who is performing what function. If CAP is doing this, and that organization over there is doing that, a quick glance around should be able to identify all of that. We can look right to the deck of an aircraft carrier to figure that one out.


Quote from: usaf_defender on August 23, 2020, 09:36:14 pmI explained to her what the background on CAP was and why we wore what we wore. It was interesting getting that side of things though.

This seems to be a chronic problem that we face: we show up somewhere and have to explain who we are and why we're there. You don't see that in many other organizations.

I honestly think that a good half chunk of that problem is how we carry ourselves and introduce ourselves when we arrive somewhere. We have a real tendency, as an organization, to barge in and give off this attitude like we're important. Most of the people we run into have no idea who we are (nor do they care at that moment). Then there's a group that shows up and just stands there awkwardly waiting to be approached by someone, and that someone is thinking "Who the heck is this? Anyone know?"

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 pmI think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room.
 

^^^ This.  Obviously boots and fatigues if you're ground team traipsing through the forest and climbing hills.

But at Mission Base thats not necessary at all, and would look like you should be elsewhere outside. All you need to sit at a desk working Comms, or working in WMIRS, or filling out spreadsheets, is the polo. And its better than the white shirt, as coffee and pizza stains do not show up as bad. ;(

In colder WX, I can see the long sleeve bag suits for aircrews. But here in the hot, humid south, I see the polo more often than not in the planes.

So yes, duties should dictate uniforms more than appearances. JMHO
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

A - There is no "common uniform".  That's the underlying problem.
In point of fact, there literally is no "uniform" at all, nor currently
any practical way for CC's to mandate wear of anything other then the
MBU.

B - No one outside the organization gives a rip "why" CAP is such a mess
with their uniforms.  They just see what you wear, and marching out the
explanations makes us look penny-ante and disjointed

C - You get to make a first impression once.

At the end of the day, an organization with a single visible identity that efficiently and quietly performed,
would be more impressive to everyone, internal and external, then the affectation people aspire to.



shuman14

QuoteA - There is no "common uniform".  That's the underlying problem.
In point of fact, there literally is no "uniform" at all, nor currently
any practical way for CC's to mandate wear of anything other then the
MBU.

Well, maybe we should change that. Maybe the the MBU for Senior Members should be changed to the Polo and Grey Tactical Pants combo so we do have a common uniform and then tie other other uniform combos to Rank Progression.

Polo = Level 1 = 2LT

USAF Class B/CAP Whites = Level 2 = 1LT

No Requirement for Level 3 = CPT

USAF Class A/Corporate Blazer = Level 4 = MAJ

Field/Flight USAF/Corporate tied to Technician Rating Requirements, i.e. Ground Team = OCP/ABU/BDU/BBDU; Pilot = Flight Suit USAF/Blue

Spell that out in the Instructions and the Regulations so there's no surprises but every new Senior Member understands the requirements.

Now, if we could get a single source supplier for one color grey tactical trousers and Class B Uniform trousers... that be a side of bacon.

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present