August 13, 2020, 04:30:15 pm

Break in Service Promotion

Started by CadetProgramGuy, August 01, 2020, 01:01:13 am

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CadetProgramGuy

A little back kstory.

I was a member from 2002 to 2010.  Left as L3 Complete Major.

Move to January 2020, rejoined.  Due to PD Changes I had to come back as a Captain.

Since then, I have L4 complete, National sends me an email saying I now have met all requirements to make Major again, but I have to use a paper CAPF2, (because of the break) with their email stating I meet qualifications.

Whats a reasonable amount of time to wait for the paperwork to get through the levels of command?

NIN

Depends on your wing. Squadron to group, a week, maybe 10 days to clear group depending on how often the promotion board meets. Then to wing.

Once at wing, 10 days or so to clear the promotion board and get signed, scanned and emailed to HQ. This is the same probably without groups, too.

At HQ, it kind of all depends on when it arrives. Sent in on Friday,, maybe not seen till Tuesday and then entered. Sent on Monday, maybe seen on Tuesday with the batch and entered. (no idea if they're batched or not, or what days. I'm just "for instanceing")

Generally speaking, I've seen it take up to a week at HQ, but that's with personnel shortages, etc. Usually it's a couple days.

YMMV, but it shouldn't
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
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Eclipse

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on August 01, 2020, 01:01:13 amNational sends me an email saying I now have met all requirements to make Major again

National sent it?   

This is new...



CadetProgramGuy

I asked for a clarification on promotion requirements, they sent me an email back saying I had the requirement met. 

Now how about answering the question instead of posting something that doesn't matter?

PHall

You're using a paper F2 so you're going to need to add time for sending it via snail mail.
A week minimum just to get to Wing, plus how often does the Wing Promotion Board meet?
You can see how it's all going to add up. And with the current situation it will probably take even longer then it would normally would.

Eclipse

August 01, 2020, 05:17:17 am #5 Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 04:39:48 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on August 01, 2020, 03:45:13 amNow how about answering the question instead of posting something that doesn't matter?

It absolutely does matter in the context of the answer, because NHQ does not "send people emails telling
them they have met the requirements for 'x".  They arguably probably should, and if they did, the insinuation
would be that NHQ would be putting new pressure on Unit CC's to promote people.

With that said...what should happen is 3 phones calls and a couple days from the
time you bring it up to the time it's approved, what's more likely to happen is based solely on
whether the promotion boards at the echelons stand on a schedule or meet adhoc.

If they stand on a schedule, and you have Groups, it could be 3 months. This is a standard duty
promotion so therefore has to go though the normal process, which requires promo boards.



SarDragon

Quote from: PHall on August 01, 2020, 03:51:30 amYou're using a paper F2 so you're going to need to add time for sending it via snail mail.
A week minimum just to get to Wing, plus how often does the Wing Promotion Board meet?
You can see how it's all going to add up. And with the current situation it will probably take even longer then it would normally would.

Why does a paper F2 need to be mailed? Why can't it be signed, scanned, and emailed?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

CadetProgramGuy

After hearing the potential of a month per eschelon, i can accept that.

Also the paper CAPF2 can absolutely be emailed after proper signing.

Thanks all for the direct input.

SARDOC

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on August 01, 2020, 12:18:05 pmAfter hearing the potential of a month per eschelon, i can accept that.

Also the paper CAPF2 can absolutely be emailed after proper signing.

Thanks all for the direct input.

What I'll say is, that the regulations say promotion boards should meet at least quarterly.  So each level involved, you do the math.

That being said I'm not aware of it taking anywhere near that.  The only reason I would think they need actual paper is that someone in the chain isn't technologically savvy.

The CAP regulations allow for electronic signatures and electronic documents for the CAPF2.  I think when they are saying "Paper" they actually mean not being done through eServices.  The eServices method can only be used for duty performance promotions, and if you have a promotion board, they can't see the actual submissions in eServices because they may not have the permissions.  So someone had to print/scan the electronic document to share with the promotion board.

The process is a pain in the neck but isn't too terribly difficult, however, if you are looking for any other special promotions/appointments they have to be done via paper (not eServices) because eServices just isn't capable of doing it at this point.  Remember it's not actual paper, it's still electronic, just not in eServices

Private Investigator

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on August 01, 2020, 01:01:13 amA little back kstory.

I was a member from 2002 to 2010.  Left as L3 Complete Major.

Move to January 2020, rejoined.  Due to PD Changes I had to come back as a Captain.

Since then, I have L4 complete, National sends me an email saying I now have met all requirements to make Major again, but I have to use a paper CAPF2, (because of the break) with their email stating I meet qualifications.

Whats a reasonable amount of time to wait for the paperwork to get through the levels of command?

You have been back six months and you want to get promoted? You need 4 years as a Captain to be promoted to Major. When I was the Group Commander that is how I did it. You TIG started January 2020. 

Welcome back sir.

Eclipse

^^ wow, didn't catch that, interesting point, and I think that is correct.



Capt Thompson

Quote from: Private Investigator on August 03, 2020, 03:19:48 am
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on August 01, 2020, 01:01:13 amA little back kstory.

I was a member from 2002 to 2010.  Left as L3 Complete Major.

Move to January 2020, rejoined.  Due to PD Changes I had to come back as a Captain.

Since then, I have L4 complete, National sends me an email saying I now have met all requirements to make Major again, but I have to use a paper CAPF2, (because of the break) with their email stating I meet qualifications.

Whats a reasonable amount of time to wait for the paperwork to get through the levels of command?

You have been back six months and you want to get promoted? You need 4 years as a Captain to be promoted to Major. When I was the Group Commander that is how I did it. You TIG started January 2020. 

Welcome back sir.
You should have been advised to stay a SMWOG until your PD matched your previous Grade, at which time you could have the previous Grade reinstated. I didn't catch that either, but this is correct, we ran into this situation with a former Lt Col who came back in 2015 as a Major due to PD requirements, and then checked all of the boxes for Lt Col but had to wait TIG as a Major.
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

GroundHawg

Does the previous TIG as a Capt count? Or would the time-clock start over?

Capt Thompson

Quote from: GroundHawg on August 03, 2020, 12:47:25 pmDoes the previous TIG as a Capt count? Or would the time-clock start over?
Clock would start with the newest date of promotion to Capt in eServices, so Jan 2020 or later depending on when that promotion went through.
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Hawk200

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 03, 2020, 12:10:42 pmYou should have been advised to stay a SMWOG until your PD matched your previous Grade, at which time you could have the previous Grade reinstated. I didn't catch that either, but this is correct, we ran into this situation with a former Lt Col who came back in 2015 as a Major due to PD requirements, and then checked all of the boxes for Lt Col but had to wait TIG as a Major.

Thank you for that. I was wondering.

It was kind of my plan, but now i know why I should.

SARDOC

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 03, 2020, 12:10:42 pmYou should have been advised to stay a SMWOG until your PD matched your previous Grade, at which time you could have the previous Grade reinstated. I didn't catch that either, but this is correct, we ran into this situation with a former Lt Col who came back in 2015 as a Major due to PD requirements, and then checked all of the boxes for Lt Col but had to wait TIG as a Major.

I don't think taking the Captain promotion negates the applying for grade reinstatement in the future.  His TIG will matter for a "duty performance" promotion but not necessarily for a "Special Appointment"

There is no timeline when they need to apply for the special appointment. So I'd think they could apply twice once for the temporary advancement and again when they meet the new PD requirements. 

Eclipse

The advancement is not "temporary". He's already received the only reinstatement he would have been eligible for.

From there it's the same as all others.



Anthony@CAP

It's interesting - this will likely come down to the reading of your chain of command - I would expect that NHQ would process such a request if they received it (as indicated by the OP's first note about the email chain with NHQ, and my own past experience with similar requests).

But if you want to take a strict interpretation, it's actually the first promotion to Captain that wouldn't be allowed. There is no basis by which to reinstate a member at a lower grade - the only option under that provision is at the same grade once they have met the criteria.

"3.8. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria."

Thus the member has not yet received the only reinstatement he would have been eligible for, since the only thing he would have been eligible for is the same grade (major in this case).

All-in-all though, I think the organization has much bigger things to worry about than whether the reinstatement option is voided if another promotion is processed first (there is no regulation that say this is the case). As with many things a common-sense approach is the best way to handle this ambiguity - in my opinion, the approach that will serve both the organization and the member best would be to allow such a reinstatement (baring other merit-based reasons to deny it) - there is little or no negative effect to CAP in allowing it, and great positive gain in not causing members to feel like the were bamboozled out of something they previously earned on a technicality (or technically in this case an improper initial reinstatement).

Eclipse

August 11, 2020, 03:54:01 pm #18 Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 03:57:25 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: Anthony@CAP on August 11, 2020, 12:12:07 amBut if you want to take a strict interpretation, it's actually the first promotion to Captain that wouldn't be allowed. There is no basis by which to reinstate a member at a lower grade - the only option under that provision is at the same grade once they have met the criteria.

"3.8. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria."

You can't just leave off the rest of the paragraph to make the argument.

"3.8. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary
membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria (including
applicable professional development criteria). Requests for former member grade reinstatements for
those members rejoining with a two year or less break in service may be based on the grandfathered duty
performance promotion requirements until 11 August 2018. A recommendation for such reinstatement
is neither automatic nor mandatory.
If approved, the appointment will not be retroactive and the date of
grade will be the date validated by National Headquarters upon reinstatement."


1 - Members must meet current criteria to be reinstated to anything, and may be considered under olf requirements until Aug 2018.
CPG did not meet the current criteria for Major, therefore that was off the table and not an option for his CC.

2 - Reinstatements are not mandatory.  Any grade he did receive would be at the benevolence of his
CC and presumably based on his relative experience and value to the receiving unit.
He could well have rejoined and had no reinstatement whatsoever.

3 - The highest grade he qualifies for under current criteria is Captain.

Further, to the other point about TIG...

"If approved, the appointment will not be retroactive and the date of
grade will be the date validated by National Headquarters upon reinstatement."


So the date NHQ accepts his reinstatement to Captain, is his new TIG start date.

There is no basis to "void another promotion". All regs were followed as written to the letter and spirit.

As a CC, while it might be compelling to bring back former members, and certainly someone
who made it to Major isn't going to need the hand-holding that a slick sleeve would,
someone gone that long also isn't going to current on a lot of things that have changed in the last decade, nor have much continuity to the current unit or wing leadership, and probably
most importantly with the CP (which appears to be his focus), and it's not like this situation
isn't essentially the same as it is for hundreds, if not thousands of members who were all on the
cusp of promotion and had the program changed at the finish line.

With that said, a Special Appointment will always be an option, and since he meets all other criteria
for a Duty promotion other then TIG, something his CC can consider, especially after he's had some
time back as an active member.

You also can't make the argument of "What's the big deal?" and "Why make members sad?" if the intention
is to change the paradigm and actually put some weight of accomplishment and experience behind
the grades and ET (the number of Chrome Tab FGO®s CAP will now have thanks to this mess of a year notwithstanding).

This is part and parcel of that.

"Chrome Tab FGO®" & "CTFGO" are registered trademarks of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!



Anthony@CAP

Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 03:54:01 pmYou can't just leave off the rest of the paragraph to make the argument.

Absolutely correct, you do have to take into account the full paragraph - and the full regulation. I have seen many people quote one sentence or part of a sentence, and miss out on the rest, and it's rather unfortunate in many cases.


Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 03:54:01 pmAll regs were followed as written to the letter and spirit.

However, I would have to disagree that the regulations were followed as written here (although I would admit they likey were followed in spirit, but as so aptly pointed out you also can't make the argument of "What's the big deal?"). There is no basis in the entire section for which a member could be reinstated at a lower grade when reinstated. Even when read in its entirety:

"3.8. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary
membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria
(including
applicable professional development criteria). Requests for former member grade reinstatements for
those members rejoining with a two year or less break in service may be based on the grandfathered duty
performance promotion requirements until 11 August 2018. A recommendation for such reinstatement
is neither automatic nor mandatory. If approved, the appointment will not be retroactive and the date of
grade will be the date validated by National Headquarters upon reinstatement."

It is super clear, the same grade assuming the member meets the current requirements. There is no basis to offer a lower grade if they don't. Now, that is not to say the member couldn't be brought back at a grade of Captain under a different special or professional appointment, but it wouldn't be under the reinstatement provision.

That would be the strict reading of that rule, taken to the letter. I do not personally believe that is in the best interest of the organization to not allow a lower grade (even though it's not explicitly allowed), just as I don't think it is best to say you can't use the provision again once you play catch up under the new rules (even though it's not explicitly disallowed). Both would be a common-sense approach to the situation (despite not being explicitly stated), but I don't think you can make an argument that one of those is okay, but the other isn't.

All that said, as others have pointed out, reinstatement of grade is discretionary. The member's chain of command doesn't have to approve it regardless of the arguments one way or the other. However, we shouldn't fall back on 'it's not allowed' as a means to avoid a hard conversation - if a member hasn't been contributing, or they'd like to see that they will contribute before processing, and that's the real reason for not putting the request forward that's the conversation the commander should be having with the member - not "sorry it's a technicality." (Although I don't believe that is the case here - in fact, given the original question, it sounds like his commander has already recommended it and it's just a waiting game for the paperwork).